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Old 2010-03-07, 16:04   Link #1921
al103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
-There was Al Hazard's advanced civilization. It collapsed long ago, for whatever reason.
-Time passed, and the planet of Belka became an empire (probably created by some of the remnants of Al Hazard civilization), and conquered numerous planets.
Wrong, from one of booklets we know that there was time when they were simultaneously active and there was tech transfer from Al Hazard to Belka.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
-Belka home planet is destroyed, along with some others.
-Remnants of Belka settle on a new world (I think it might be Mid-Childa, but it's not said). They begin to rebuild their civilization.
-Belka creates and launches the Cradle, and the current leader renames himself as the first Sankt Kaiser, begins the re-unification war to reclaim all the planets in their empire.
Craddle is Al Hazard relic, also was in possession of Saint line long before fall of Belka.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
-That lasts for roughly 300 years, I think, before the last Sankt Kaiser, Olive, sacrificed herself to stop the Cradle.
Where did you get it - i don't remember such thing in any source. Also because Cradle activated by Saints genetic code she should have just ordered it to drop on sun and not sacrifice herself.
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Old 2010-03-07, 16:15   Link #1922
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Okay, thanks a lot guys, you helped me with my project.

Going out of the theme a bit, I have another question.

Is it posible for a mage to control 2 or more diferent devices at the same time?
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Old 2010-03-07, 16:23   Link #1923
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Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
Okay, thanks a lot guys, you helped me with my project.

Going out of the theme a bit, I have another question.

Is it posible for a mage to control 2 or more diferent devices at the same time?
Depends what you say by 2 devices.

Hayate 'control' Rein, and always has her own Storage Device.

Btw, Rein also has her own Storage Device.

However, having more than one of the same type ofdevice should be counterproductive.
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Old 2010-03-07, 16:26   Link #1924
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Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
Is it posible for a mage to control 2 or more diferent devices at the same time?
Isn't that what Subaru was doing with Revolver Knuckle (or... half of it...) and Mach Caliber?

I doubt a mage has reason to use more than one Intelligent Device, but an Intelligent and another type has precedent, at least in StrikerS.
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Old 2010-03-07, 16:53   Link #1925
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Hayate uses two as well. Three, if you count Rein.

On Belka... if I recall, the death of Olivie and the disappearance of the Cradle had a rather large timespan in between. Also, Olivie's death was to re-unite Belka and stop the war (hence the re-unification war), not to destroy the Cradle.
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Old 2010-03-07, 16:59   Link #1926
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Isn't that what Subaru was doing with Revolver Knuckle (or... half of it...) and Mach Caliber?

I doubt a mage has reason to use more than one Intelligent Device, but an Intelligent and another type has precedent, at least in StrikerS.
From what I understand, Subaru has her half of the Revolver Knuckle 'synchronized' with Mach Calibur, whatever the hell that means in StrikerS. What it does happen to allow, though, is for Mach Calibur to use the Revolver Knuckle like Subaru can.
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Old 2010-03-07, 17:19   Link #1927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by al103 View Post
Wrong, from one of booklets we know that there was time when they were simultaneously active and there was tech transfer from Al Hazard to Belka.
Source? There is contradictary information if you look hard enough, which is why it's always risky to rely on stuff like DVD booklets. You might want to check the Nanoha wikia, along with the Japanese wiki site, to see for yourself. Belka used Al Hazard tech, but it's not real clear that both existed at the same time; the most logical explanation is that they just rediscovered it, or whoever was leftover from the collapse of Al Hazard, migrated to Belka and contributed to it's rise. The loss of the ancient civilization of alhazard meant that some of the lost technology, and perhaps even people, ultimately formed the first ancient Belkan Empire. Details are sketchy, however.

Quote:
Craddle is Al Hazard relic, also was in possession of Saint line long before fall of Belka.
That much I had a bit wrong. Yeah, it is a piece of Al Hazard technology that the Belkans had in their possession. It's this clue that tells me that the two weren't around at the same time, because the two have clearly different names (Belka and Al Hazard) and if the civilization of Al Hazard was still around, they'd want their ship back. So it's more logical to assume Belka just rediscovered enough Al Hazard technology to launch and control the cradle. Tying it's genetic code to the Sankt Kaiser was a useful key that meant no one else could use it. The cradle was used as the main base for the Reunification war, though, that started after the Warring Ages and the destruction of the Belka home planet. This much is fact. The Cradle was the base of the later Belkans attempt to get all their worlds back.

Quote:
Where did you get it - i don't remember such thing in any source. Also because Cradle activated by Saints genetic code she should have just ordered it to drop on sun and not sacrifice herself.
I assume we'll find out more in Vivid. We already know, from Vivid, that Olive was the last Sankt Kaiser, and that the end of the Cradle was the end of the war. It was their trump card, and without it, their Reunification war ended. Hegemon Ingvalt tried to save Olive's life to prevent her from doing it, but he failed.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On Belka... if I recall, the death of Olivie and the disappearance of the Cradle had a rather large timespan in between. Also, Olivie's death was to re-unite Belka and stop the war (hence the re-unification war), not to destroy the Cradle.
Belka was never reunited, though. The Cradle could only only be controlled by a Sankt Kaiser, and Olive knew this. Its a large part of why she was able to bring the Reunification war to an end.

Here's a link that helps explain a few things:
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology
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Old 2010-03-07, 17:32   Link #1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Source? There is contradictary information if you look hard enough, which is why it's always risky to rely on stuff like DVD booklets. You might want to check the Nanoha wikia, along with the Japanese wiki site, to see for yourself. Belka used Al Hazard tech, but it's not real clear that both existed at the same time;
No, Wikis are made by fan, and as such are in the low-order of truth about things.

As for the Source, it's in SSX, Ix said it- she remembers them.
Quote:
The most logical explanation is that they just rediscovered it, or whoever was leftover from the collapse of Al Hazard, migrated to Belka and contributed to it's rise. The loss of the ancient civilization of alhazard meant that some of the lost technology, and perhaps even people, ultimately formed the first ancient Belkan Empire. Details are sketchy, however.
Personal theory contradicting facts.

Quote:

That much I had a bit wrong. Yeah, it is a piece of Al Hazard technology that the Belkans had in their possession. It's this clue that tells me that the two weren't around at the same time, because the two have clearly different names (Belka and Al Hazard) and if the civilization of Al Hazard was still around, they'd want their ship back.
Olivie was one of the later-era Belkan Kings, not a earlier one.


Quote:
So it's more logical to assume Belka just rediscovered enough Al Hazard technology to launch and control the cradle. Tying it's genetic code to the Sankt Kaiser was a useful key that meant no one else could use it. The cradle was used as the main base for the Reunification war, though, that started after the Warring Ages and the destruction of the Belka home planet. This much is fact. The Cradle was the base of the later Belkans attempt to get all their worlds back.
Not, 'fact'. Btw, the reunifications was tried many, many times. Hell, olivie had to contend against other kings who wanted the same things.

Quote:
I assume we'll find out more in Vivid. We already know, from Vivid, that Olive was the last Sankt Kaiser
We do? Seh sin't the first?

Quote:
, and that the end of the Cradle was the end of the war. It was their trump card, and without it, their Reunification war ended. Hegemon Ingvalt tried to save Olive's life to prevent her from doing it, but he failed.
Can't remember if it's more than implied.

Quote:
Belka was never reunited, though. The Cradle could only only be controlled by a Sankt Kaiser, and Olive knew this. Its a large part of why she was able to bring the Reunification war to an end.
Fanon.
Quote:

Here's a link that helps explain a few things:
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology
not checked yet, but i doubt much of it is correct.
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Old 2010-03-07, 17:40   Link #1929
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Source? There is contradictary information if you look hard enough, which is why it's always risky to rely on stuff like DVD booklets. You might want to check the Nanoha wikia, along with the Japanese wiki site, to see for yourself.
Begging your pardon, but I'll take a booklet statement over a wiki page any day. Unless that wiki entry has a clear source attached.

Wiki's are edited by fans like you and me, and so can just as easily contain the same mistakes you and me make when debating this, especially when talking about grey area subjects like this. Between this and an official source, which is the more reliable one?

Not to mention wikis are build using booklets like this. If the wiki conflicts with the booklet, it's obvious which of the two needs to be edited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I assume we'll find out more in Vivid. We already know, from Vivid, that Olive was the last Sankt Kaiser, and that the end of the Cradle was the end of the war.
The loss of the Cradle was never labeled the end of the war. It was merely noted that the Cradle disappeared during the wartime.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
It was their trump card, and without it, their Reunification war ended.
Source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Hegemon Ingvalt tried to save Olive's life to prevent her from doing it, but he failed.

Belka was never reunited, though. The Cradle could only only be controlled by a Sankt Kaiser, and Olive knew this. Its a large part of why she was able to bring the Reunification war to an end.
That's pure theorycrafting. We know Hegemon tried to prevent Olivie from sacrificing herself, and we know he mentions the Cradle, but until we have more information anything of this sort is speculation, not a clear answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Here's a link that helps explain a few things:
http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Chronology
I don't really see how this timeline supports any of the theories you've put forth, as it's just as vague as the canon sources we have on the subject.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:03   Link #1930
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Had a big reply typed up, but just gonna say this much: A lot of my conclusions are drawn from the Japanese Wiki, of which the Nanoha Wikia is based. Occam's Razor fills in gaps for me, as far as the likliest suggestions and outcomes.

If you feel you have information that contradicts, feel free to contribute to the wikia; it's the only way it's going to get better. Although, it does feel better to sit back and smugly say, "Wrong, heheheh" without bothering to contribute to make better.

Someone had a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability, based on the work of others who combed through the Japanese wiki to help make the Nanoha wikia.

If you have a better idea of history, feel free to suggest it.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:11   Link #1931
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
If you have a better idea of history, feel free to suggest it.
That's the big problem: We don't. There are too many empty gaps and grey areas in the Belkan history that still need to be answered.

However, this thread is for facts, not theories. Which is why most people confronted you about your theories, because we thought they were facts and were wondering what we'd missed.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:30   Link #1932
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Depends what you say by 2 devices.

Hayate 'control' Rein, and always has her own Storage Device.

Btw, Rein also has her own Storage Device.

However, having more than one of the same type ofdevice should be counterproductive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Isn't that what Subaru was doing with Revolver Knuckle (or... half of it...) and Mach Caliber?

I doubt a mage has reason to use more than one Intelligent Device, but an Intelligent and another type has precedent, at least in StrikerS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hayate uses two as well. Three, if you count Rein.

On Belka... if I recall, the death of Olivie and the disappearance of the Cradle had a rather large timespan in between. Also, Olivie's death was to re-unite Belka and stop the war (hence the re-unification war), not to destroy the Cradle.
Close, my question (more exactly) is if a mage could ude 2 inteligent devices at the same time, like 1 close combat device and 1 ranged device. You know, in a fight to alternate between close attacks & ranged attacks. Is this posible in the canon of the Nanoha universe?
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:33   Link #1933
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Would it even be necessary? Devices themselves can switch between such forms on their own already, as we've seen with Bardiche and Levantien and Cross Mirage.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:35   Link #1934
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Originally Posted by Evil Rick View Post
Close, my question (more exactly) is if a mage could ude 2 inteligent devices at the same time, like 1 close combat device and 1 ranged device. You know, in a fight to alternate between close attacks & ranged attacks. Is this posible in the canon of the Nanoha universe?
Most people who wants to do that uses a device that can do both, like Fate or even in a more limited manner Nanoha and Signum.

There is no Reason one *couldn't* use two devices, except that you'd have to multi-task your "connection" with both, and that it would be simpler just to have a main device with a secondary one under control of the main one.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:37   Link #1935
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Close, my question (more exactly) is if a mage could ude 2 inteligent devices at the same time, like 1 close combat device and 1 ranged device. You know, in a fight to alternate between close attacks & ranged attacks. Is this posible in the canon of the Nanoha universe?
It is far more likely they will go for a mode-switching Device instead, such as Teana's Cross Mirage, which is both gun and sword in one. Why carry two different devices when you can have one that can do both?

I see nothing that disproves the possibility though.
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Old 2010-03-07, 18:40   Link #1936
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Would it even be necessary? Devices themselves can switch between such forms on their own already, as we've seen with Bardiche and Levantien and Cross Mirage.
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Most people who wants to do that uses a device that can do both, like Fate or even in a more limited manner Nanoha and Signum.

There is no Reason one *wouldn't* use two devices, except that you'd have to multi-task your "connection" with both, and that it would be simpler just to have a main device with a secondary one under control of the main one.
I know it may not be necesary (well, unless the mage is blocking and attack with the close combat devices and counter attack with the ranged device and upcoming foe from behind). I only want to know if it is possible.

EDIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It is far more likely they will go for a mode-switching Device instead, such as Teana's Cross Mirage, which is both gun and sword in one. Why carry two different devices when you can have one that can do both?

I see nothing that disproves the possibility though.
So, it is possible. Thanks that's what I wanted to know
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Old 2010-03-07, 19:16   Link #1937
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That's the big problem: We don't. There are too many empty gaps and grey areas in the Belkan history that still need to be answered.

However, this thread is for facts, not theories. Which is why most people confronted you about your theories, because we thought they were facts and were wondering what we'd missed.
Well, I once thought as you and had people tell me things worked differently than I thought they did. When pressed, they too said the facts were in different languages and to do my own research, which I did, heh.

But as I said, if you feel the wikia is just guessing, then delete things and give your reasoning. Because a lot of that information was taken from sources like Japanese magazines and such, and thus can't really be put up as a linked source. You can see with that one link, that there are Japanese words for things like the Warring Ages, because the source was in Japanese.

This is the best we've got at the moment. You're welcome to ignore it, but I feel it fills in a LOT of gaps and makes sense in the overall scheme of things. I will bet that Vivid ultimately will show that, too, because it's already showed some things that were in the wikia before Vivid confirmed it. Occam's Razor means a lot of things do make sense, too.

But you're also faced with the prospect that not everything is going to line up nicely. Case in point: Schach says Vivio's DNA comes from 300 years ago. Einhart says Olive lived 100 years ago. Figure that out, heh.

Edit: Gonna add this bit from a google translate of the Japanese wiki:

Prehistoric - during war - Invaded neighboring countries as well as using otherworldly technology, superior weapons development, expand their territory.
Its technology is the technology leakage was from Al Hazard.

Mid-war period (about 1000 years ago of this story):
Significant advances in artificial life research, a number of "king" of their own to strengthen our body, destined to map it to posterity.

The war (a few hundred years ago of this story) :
Disappear by the end of the war a substantial ancient Belka Belka, Marek Belka land Menu land and who will even after hundreds of years due to pollution. Shall be confirmed by a runaway or not the imposition of any weapons of mass.
Other countries seeking to come back and won The King Seong houses scattered around the world held by a cradle, Belka uniform measure. (Unification War King Seong)
Cradle is lost during the war, King Seong lose the house.
Country surviving occupant had ruled the world, to stop claiming to be orthodox Belka.
During this time, almost to extinction and armed ancient Belka-style magic.

Current:
King Seong and his family and faith for an end to the war, King Seong church is established.
Organization established under the slogan of peace and peace-dimensional interaction with the world of weapons of mass disconnection Middochiruda dangerous, after which time and space Administration.
King Seong church organizations lent strength to the establishment of peace is part of Middochiruda "Belka autonomous" to secure the country as a.

It's kind of hard to make things out, but one thing is clear: The reunification war was a few hundred years ago, and the cradle was lost during this time, as well as the fall of the Saint Kaisers. The TSAB was founded only 150 years ago, so the war ended long before the founding of the TSAB. This falls in line with what Shach said about Vivio's DNA being from 300 years ago.
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Old 2010-03-07, 19:21   Link #1938
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Well, I once thought as you and had people tell me things worked differently than I thought they did. When pressed, they too said the facts were in different languages and to do my own research, which I did, heh.

But as I said, if you feel the wikia is just guessing, then delete things and give your reasoning. Because a lot of that information was taken from sources like Japanese magazines and such, and thus can't really be put up as a linked source. You can see with that one link, that there are Japanese words for things like the Warring Ages, because the source was in Japanese.
The problem is that you haven't shown the translation, and that what you are saying directly contradicts Official Sources.
Quote:
This is the best we've got at the moment. You're welcome to ignore it, but I feel it fills in a LOT of gaps and makes sense in the overall scheme of things. I will bet that Vivid ultimately will show that, too, because it's already showed some things that were in the wikia before Vivid confirmed it. Occam's Razor means a lot of things do make sense, too.
Except it *doesn't* make sense, and that "making sense" isn't enough in a fact thread.

Quote:
But you're also faced with the prospect that not everything is going to line up nicely. Case in point: Schach says Vivio's DNA comes from 300 years ago. Einhart says Olive lived 100 years ago. Figure that out, heh.
Heh, don't remember that.
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Old 2010-03-07, 19:27   Link #1939
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
The problem is that you haven't shown the translation, and that what you are saying directly contradicts Official Sources.
Edited my post above to show part of the sources, so you don't have to take my word for it, if you want to do your own translation. There's a lot of clues laying about that people have managed to piece things together; they aren't outright said, but it's pretty clear about a lot of things that happened, and in what order that happened in. The Nanoha wikia information shows the results.
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Old 2010-03-07, 19:31   Link #1940
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Edited my post above to show part of the sources, so you don't have to take my word for it, if you want to do your own translation. There's a lot of clues laying about that people have managed to piece things together; they aren't outright said, but it's pretty clear about a lot of things that happened, and in what order that happened in. The Nanoha wikia information shows the results.
what you translated doesn't support at all what you said earlier though.
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