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Old 2010-03-09, 01:13   Link #181
Alhazred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
((TL;DR version: Her AIM maintains the thermal energy level of objects in contact with her.))
I agree with your assessment (and have stated the exact same things several times already ), but to play devil's advocate for the 'entropy suppression' idea a little...

We don't know exactly what Uiharu experienced when she was holding the box of taiyaki, nor do we know what Haruue experienced when she took one taiyaki from the box. Thus, it may be that the box did not feel noticeably warm to Uiharu, and the taiyaki did not feel noticeably warm to Haruue until she removed it from the box.

What we do know is that:

A) When Haruue was holding the taiyaki in her hands - and thus, not touching Uiharu or the box - it was warm, as if it was freshly-baked.
B) Uiharu stated that she can maintain a constant temperature in objects that she touches; this apparently includes relatively complex systems or frames of reference, like taiyaki inside of a box, where she is in contact with the container rather than the actual object.
C) Uiharu stated that she cannot handle very hot objects.
D) Uiharu is a level one ability user.

Given that Uiharu is only level one, perhaps she can only suppress up to a certain, relatively low rate of entropic equalization? For example, she could keep a cold drink from warming or a taiyaki from cooling to room temperature, but she could not keep a ice cube from melting or a piece of hot metal from cooling to comfortable handling temperatures, because the rate at which they are losing or gaining energy is too great.

Once the ice cube was a puddle of cold water and the piece of hot metal was cool enough to touch, their rate of entropic equalization might be within her power's range of suppression, and thus she could keep them from heating or cooling further. In this scenario, suppressing the entropy of the system would not require any great degree of thought - that would come later, possibly, if she ever learned to suppress it only to a certain degree, so that objects under her power would heat or cool at a reduced rate.

Again, just playing devil's advocate; given the existence of the aforementioned 'constant speed' power, i think that Uiharu's power functioning similarly to that one is the more likely possibility...
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Old 2010-03-09, 08:08   Link #182
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I would think writers will dumb the ability down to something much simpler. Think we should be looking for the more simple solution.
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Old 2010-03-09, 08:52   Link #183
outcast_within
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I haven't been this annoyed since ranka lee turned out to be an alien traitor/whiny child.
Uiharu must die.
And i don't buy her mad hacking skillz as well. We got a useless character oh wait lets give her the computer genius perk.
She should drop out of school and start delivering pizza's. Then she would be usefull.
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Old 2010-03-09, 09:05   Link #184
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Someone hasn't realized that her hacking skills can only work if her computer doesn't overheat due to the intense amount of instructions she is plugging into the CPU. And for the love of fudge, she's just a LEVEL 1.
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Old 2010-03-09, 09:21   Link #185
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Originally Posted by outcast_within View Post
I haven't been this annoyed since ranka lee turned out to be an alien traitor/whiny child.
Uiharu must die.
And i don't buy her mad hacking skillz as well. We got a useless character oh wait lets give her the computer genius perk.
She should drop out of school and start delivering pizza's. Then she would be usefull.
And you should grow up or die. otherwise you'd be wasting O2. it's only fair.
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Old 2010-03-09, 09:43   Link #186
Minagi Mikoto
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Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
Given that Uiharu is only level one, perhaps she can only suppress up to a certain, relatively low rate of entropic equalization? For example, she could keep a cold drink from warming or a taiyaki from cooling to room temperature, but she could not keep a ice cube from melting or a piece of hot metal from cooling to comfortable handling temperatures, because the rate at which they are losing or gaining energy is too great.
If her power is truly to decrease the entropy, then she could have much more useful powers (at higher levels I guess). For further explanation visit my post.
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Old 2010-03-09, 23:57   Link #187
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Since Uriharu seems to be having a giant discussion here and in the Episode 22 thread about what it might be able to do, can we still assume that her power is still a "Mystery"?
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Old 2010-03-10, 00:04   Link #188
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Originally Posted by Fandal View Post
Since Uriharu seems to be having a giant discussion here and in the Episode 22 thread about what it might be able to do, can we still assume that her power is still a "Mystery"?
The damn flowers are still a mystery. Whenever it is brought up it is either not there or doesn't want to talk about it.

Also Kuroko notices the damn flowers increases. Why does she cry if they get picked off?
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Old 2010-03-10, 00:14   Link #189
Alhazred
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Originally Posted by Fandal View Post
Since Uriharu seems to be having a giant discussion here and in the Episode 22 thread about what it might be able to do, can we still assume that her power is still a "Mystery"?
Not so much a discussion, i guess, as a shouting match between the folks that look at her power and say, "Man, what a lame power," and the folks that say, "Well, I guess she is only level 1." The level 1 effects of her power are no longer a mystery (flowers aside), but the mechanism still is...
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Old 2010-03-10, 03:22   Link #190
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Before anything else, I'd just like to say that my person opinion is that the flowers are a red herring, a distraction, and that it means nothing. Moving on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
I agree with your assessment (and have stated the exact same things several times already ), but to play devil's advocate for the 'entropy suppression' idea a little...
Yeah, I saw that you have, I was more or less actually trying mercilessly gun down the "entropy stop/decrease", "pyrokinesis," or "secondary heat generation abilities" since they annoyed me.

Just going to go through some stuff in your post because you make some great points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
A) When Haruue was holding the taiyaki in her hands - and thus, not touching Uiharu or the box - it was warm, as if it was freshly-baked.
B) Uiharu stated that she can maintain a constant temperature in objects that she touches; this apparently includes relatively complex systems or frames of reference, like taiyaki inside of a box, where she is in contact with the container rather than the actual object.
C) Uiharu stated that she cannot handle very hot objects.
D) Uiharu is a level one ability user.
A) Sounds good. Uiharu could have obtained the tayaki immediately after baking and her effect kept it warm.
B) Since all espers generate an AIM field, I posit that certain AIM fields extend further from an individual depending the individual. In this case, once Uiharu touches the box, her field envelops the box. Her ability then simply applies to everything within the field. Complexity wouldn't matter, but this is speculation. Uiharu probably has to consciously expand her AIM field power to objects she's touching though, Saten had to hug Uiharu in ep13 to stay warm.
C) Not being able to handle hot objects is actually a huge argument against entropy stop. If entropy stops the moment she touches an object, heat transfer immediately stops. She could then touch anything she wanted to and maintain that temperature for the item. She says she can't handle hot items because she can't touch them, not because she can't keep it that warm.
D) All sorts of espers violate conservation of energy principles no matter what the level, I suppose a level 1 Uiharu can do so as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Given that Uiharu is only level one, perhaps she can only suppress up to a certain, relatively low rate of entropic equalization? For example, she could keep a cold drink from warming or a taiyaki from cooling to room temperature, but she could not keep a ice cube from melting or a piece of hot metal from cooling to comfortable handling temperatures, because the rate at which they are losing or gaining energy is too great.
(Entropic equalization is probably not the right phrase to use here. Entropy tends towards the maximum and doesn't usually equalize to something unless you're talking about a closed system.) Again, if you mess with entropy, you get all sorts of wacky things like objects not feeling like they're at the appropriate temperatures. Haruue reaches into the box of tayaki, touches it and immediately sense that it's still very warm. If Uiharu's messing with entropy rates, the tayaki would need to be out of the box, then Haruue would feel as though the tayaki suddenly heated up. (When actually, heat transfer resumes due to entropy rates resuming normal). If she only has partial control over the change in entropy like you suggest, then Uiharu can't maintain any object at a constant temperature. Since an object is giving off heat, entropy of the object is increasing, the total heat must be decreasing.

Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power. She'd be able to kill any living being just by touching them. Entropy increasing is tied to things like fluid dynamics and chemical reactions. She'd be able to tell blood not to flow, or inhibit the chemical reactions that let plants generate energy. Hell, she'd actually make plants on her head die faster! If you can control entropy, you can't pick and choose what effects that it has.

If Uiharu's maintaining constant entropy on say, a person, you would get the
-Fluids don't flow. (She'd be able to stop a river, or blood from flowing, suffocate people or suffocate herself.)
-Chemical reactions don't take place. (Cause living matter to rot from lack of ATP, or stomach acid to chemically break down food. Prevent explosions.)
-Freeze an object's state right down to the quark level. (Essentially a freeze time method for an object without actually mucking with the fabric of time. If she was a higher level, I assume.)

These are vastly superior powers than "constant temperature," which she doesn't say she has.

((PS: I'm also dreadfully afraid that the author will come out and say "Uiharu can control entropy, her effects just aren't consistent because I didn't research properly." and he would be completely in the right and all my thinking would be wrong.))

((PPS: Entropy control suddenly just became an awesome idea for a power... but you'd have to get the effects right, and that would be tricky.))
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Old 2010-03-10, 06:26   Link #191
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i doubt the writter made a mistake even if he did he will just change her power to something else heat control could be anything
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Old 2010-03-10, 10:02   Link #192
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CrazyPerson, not being able to touch extremely hot things is because they'll burn her even if she can maintain their current temperature.
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Old 2010-03-10, 10:49   Link #193
Alhazred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Before anything else, I'd just like to say that my person opinion is that the flowers are a red herring, a distraction, and that it means nothing. Moving on...
A) Sounds good. Uiharu could have obtained the tayaki immediately after baking and her effect kept it warm.
B) Since all espers generate an AIM field, I posit that certain AIM fields extend further from an individual depending the individual. In this case, once Uiharu touches the box, her field envelops the box. Her ability then simply applies to everything within the field. Complexity wouldn't matter, but this is speculation. Uiharu probably has to consciously expand her AIM field power to objects she's touching though, Saten had to hug Uiharu in ep13 to stay warm.
I agree that 'range' and 'frame of reference' are probably both functions of her AIM field. I raised the idea of complex systems mostly because the series seems to lean heavily on 'calculation power' as a measurement of ability.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
C) Not being able to handle hot objects is actually a huge argument against entropy stop. If entropy stops the moment she touches an object, heat transfer immediately stops. She could then touch anything she wanted to and maintain that temperature for the item. She says she can't handle hot items because she can't touch them, not because she can't keep it that warm.
It's not necessarily the case that she can cause her power to take effect instantly; we have a canon example in the manga of a level 1 power user that has to struggle for quite some time before he can produce any measurable effect with his electromaster ability.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
D) All sorts of espers violate conservation of energy principles no matter what the level, I suppose a level 1 Uiharu can do so as well.
True; just saying that we may want to lower our expectations a little, in terms of how much control she should probably have over her ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
(Entropic equalization is probably not the right phrase to use here. Entropy tends towards the maximum and doesn't usually equalize to something unless you're talking about a closed system.)
I was talking about a closed system, actually. Another way to think of her power might be to say that she has the power to create a perfect, thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM. I guess i'm attacking the 'entropy' idea from a different tack than the folks who want to think of it as 'entropy' control.' I debated whether or not to say 'thermodynamic equalization' instead; ah well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Again, if you mess with entropy, you get all sorts of wacky things like objects not feeling like they're at the appropriate temperatures. Haruue reaches into the box of tayaki, touches it and immediately sense that it's still very warm. If Uiharu's messing with entropy rates, the tayaki would need to be out of the box, then Haruue would feel as though the tayaki suddenly heated up. (When actually, heat transfer resumes due to entropy rates resuming normal).
It is possible that Uiharu stopped using her power before she offered the box to Haruue, though. The Taiyaki would not have had a chance to noticeably change in temperature. Perhaps exposing living organisms to her power has undesirable effects... though that would run directly counter to Kuroko's assertion that Uiharu's power is useless for getting her out of dangerous situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
If she only has partial control over the change in entropy like you suggest, then Uiharu can't maintain any object at a constant temperature. Since an object is giving off heat, entropy of the object is increasing, the total heat must be decreasing.
I'm actually suggesting that, if it were that sort of power, Uiharu would have almost no control over it; she would either be using her power at maximum strength, or not at all. I'm also suggesting that she very low 'threshold,' in terms of how far from 'ambient' a system can be before her power will totally fail to isolate it.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power. <snip GOD MODE UIHARU! RAR!>
Yeah, complex, gradient control over the concept of 'entropy' would be pretty game-breaking - but it seems to be that ultimately, any power user that reaches 'level 6' will immediately discover the grand unification theory and will be able to cause any effect with their power, regardless of what their original power was. 'Entropy Control' would probably be the ideal power for a 'Level 6' experiment. I would say, however, that 'System Isolation' as an 'entropy-related' power could probably be kept to somewhat usable level until level 6.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
((PS: I'm also dreadfully afraid that the author will come out and say "Uiharu can control entropy, her effects just aren't consistent because I didn't research properly." and he would be completely in the right and all my thinking would be wrong.))
Unless Uiharu suddenly becomes extremely important in the light novels, her power will probably never be revisited, so no worries.
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((PPS: Entropy control suddenly just became an awesome idea for a power... but you'd have to get the effects right, and that would be tricky.))
Indeed...
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Old 2010-03-10, 11:02   Link #194
outcast_within
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Originally Posted by Nya~n View Post
And you should grow up or die. otherwise you'd be wasting O2. it's only fair.
Fine we both die. Still for how she is treating her friends and even sharing her power not with her friends, she goes first.
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Old 2010-03-10, 11:02   Link #195
DrCnCh
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Now knowing her power and that, apparently, it has nothing to do with the flowers, I'm starting to think that Uiharu has them (the flowers) for a psychological reason rather one related to her powers. Maybe they serve as a comfort over/reminder of some trauma she suffered when she was younger and that's why she doesn't seem to want to talk about them. That's just what I think, completely outside of the discussion of physics that is going on and right over my head.
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Old 2010-03-10, 12:31   Link #196
CrazyPerson
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
CrazyPerson, not being able to touch extremely hot things is because they'll burn her even if she can maintain their current temperature.
Which is precisely why I think her power is "constant temperature" and not "entropy control." It's the basis of my entire argument against entropy!

I thought I laid that out pretty clearly. Again, if she controlled entropy, she could cease their heat transfer by stopping entropy, and no heat would be given off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
I was talking about a closed system, actually. Another way to think of her power might be to say that she has the power to create a perfect, thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM. I guess i'm attacking the 'entropy' idea from a different tack than the folks who want to think of it as 'entropy' control.' I debated whether or not to say 'thermodynamic equalization' instead; ah well...
I was going against the idea of a closed system since all espers violate conservation of energy in one way or another, it seemed silly to me to keep it that way. The thermodynamic system a human lives in is also not closed. If she's creating a thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM, that might produce problems for her to try to release her own generated body heat when she exercises. More importantly, the tayaki in her hands would still cool down if this was her power since the heat from the tayaki would flow into her hands and other parts of her body within the system and not keep the food warm.

Any idea that involves a transfer of heat will without fail show effects of temperature loss over time unless there's some sort of heat energy source. There must be something giving energy to the tayaki, there's no way around this point, using controlled entropy or thermodynamics can't change this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
It's not necessarily the case that she can cause her power to take effect instantly; we have a canon example in the manga of a level 1 power user that has to struggle for quite some time before he can produce any measurable effect with his electromaster ability.
True... but it would also be simple to wear an oven mitt and be able to touch a boiling kettle. The brief respite from the kettle burning her hands and the not super hand melting temperature would allow her power to kick in, that is, assuming entropy control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson
Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power. She'd be able to kill any living being just by touching them. Entropy increasing is tied to things like fluid dynamics and chemical reactions. She'd be able to tell blood not to flow, or inhibit the chemical reactions that let plants generate energy. Hell, she'd actually make plants on her head die faster! If you can control entropy, you can't pick and choose what effects that it has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Yeah, complex, gradient control over the concept of 'entropy' would be pretty game-breaking - but it seems to be that ultimately, any power user that reaches 'level 6' will immediately discover the grand unification theory and will be able to cause any effect with their power, regardless of what their original power was. 'Entropy Control' would probably be the ideal power for a 'Level 6' experiment. I would say, however, that 'System Isolation' as an 'entropy-related' power could probably be kept to somewhat usable level until level 6.
Ah, but you misunderstand me. If Uiharu at level 1 can inhibit entropy at an atomic level, then she would also be able to affect entropy at the molecular level at level 1! If you can control whether a ball bounces or not, you could probably stop if from moving in a particular direction just as easily. Vibrational and translational motion is the same thing, motion. She'd be able to do all I said at level 1.

I'm currently out of time, but I will be back with more later.

I'm enjoying these debates too much. >.> You're very good at this, Alhazred.
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Old 2010-03-10, 12:49   Link #197
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Fine we both die. Still for how she is treating her friends and even sharing her power not with her friends, she goes first.
THAT's something I dislike also. How she didn't told Saten about her power when she's her best friend and suddenly she tells -this secondary character whose name i don't remember- who has just almost met.

I mean, her power is aweasome (f+ck yeah, i don't need any sweater in the coldest winter) but that attitude of hers (That some writter thought it would be a 'good' twist or 'good character development') angers me.
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Old 2010-03-10, 12:53   Link #198
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Huh? I thought they did know, but just that she never actually showed it to them in action.
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Old 2010-03-10, 12:59   Link #199
Siegfridus
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Huh? I thought they did know, but just that she never actually showed it to them in action.
Well, the anime set out "because you showed me your ability now I show you mine" thing...wich i think is a bit foolish way of reasoning
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Old 2010-03-10, 13:56   Link #200
Alhazred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
I was going against the idea of a closed system since all espers violate conservation of energy in one way or another, it seemed silly to me to keep it that way. The thermodynamic system a human lives in is also not closed. If she's creating a thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM, that might produce problems for her to try to release her own generated body heat when she exercises. More importantly, the tayaki in her hands would still cool down if this was her power since the heat from the tayaki would flow into her hands and other parts of her body within the system and not keep the food warm.

Any idea that involves a transfer of heat will without fail show effects of temperature loss over time unless there's some sort of heat energy source. There must be something giving energy to the tayaki, there's no way around this point, using controlled entropy or thermodynamics can't change this point.
Ah, but i said 'within the bounds of her AIM,' but not 'encompassing her AIM.' No esper constantly exerts their power over all points within the bounds of their AIM, so if her power were 'thermodynamic isolation,' then she should be able to selectively isolate only the portion of her AIM that overlaps with the box of taiyaki, thus creating a closed system that, at a state of equilibrium, would be approximately the temperature of warm taiyaki.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
True... but it would also be simple to wear an oven mitt and be able to touch a boiling kettle. The brief respite from the kettle burning her hands and the not super hand melting temperature would allow her power to kick in, that is, assuming entropy control.
Which is why i proposed the idea of a 'threshold.' For instance: let us say her 'range' is '+/- 50 degrees.' If the temperature outside the closed system is 75 degrees, and the temperature inside the system is 115 degrees, then she could isolate the system. If, on the other hand, the temperature inside the system were 150 degrees, then her isolation would fail. If this were the case, then one way the power could be improved would be by widening its 'range of effect.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Ah, but you misunderstand me. If Uiharu at level 1 can inhibit entropy at an atomic level, then she would also be able to affect entropy at the molecular level at level 1! If you can control whether a ball bounces or not, you could probably stop if from moving in a particular direction just as easily. Vibrational and translational motion is the same thing, motion. She'd be able to do all I said at level 1.
It is not necessarily the case that the ability to affect a particular frame of reference also grants the ability to affect all frames of reference that encompass the frame of reference you can affect. I will admit, this is a conceptual difficulty inherent in trying to construct a power that operates by manipulating natural laws, rather than one that operates 'simply' by violating conservation of energy, but bear with me for a moment.

One could ask, if Aerohand and Hydrokinesis are somehow subsets of 'pure' Telekinesis, rather than 'material manipulation,' why can Kongou not telekinetically affect anything other than atmospherically dispersed gases? Similarly, you could ask how Accelerator's power is any different from very strong telekinesis, or why 'Aerohand' and 'Offensive Armor' are both considered level 4, when 'Aerohand' should theoretically be able to accomplish the exact same effect as 'Offensive Armor,' in addition to all the other things it can do.

Part of increasing level is increasing your understanding of how your 'personal reality' functions. In another thread, i actually did posit that greater understanding of her power might lead Uiharu to make the mental connection between vibrational motion and transitional motion, and the expansion of abilities such a breakthrough would grant. If her power remained the ability to create 'closed systems,' it could lead to some very bizarre effects - including the 'Constant Speed' effect. It may be that Constant Speed and Constant Temperature are both subsets of the same broader power, and the users of each are just starting with different base assumptions about the nature of their personal reality.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
I'm currently out of time, but I will be back with more later.

I'm enjoying these debates too much. >.> You're very good at this, Alhazred.
I look forward to it! I'm enjoying this quite a bit as well. It's nice to have an interlocutor who doesn't immediately counter with, 'Well, Accelerator/Touma is still better.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Huh? I thought they did know, but just that she never actually showed it to them in action.
Actually, what Uiharu said was 'Misaka-tachi,' which roughly translates as 'Misaka et al.' The only person explicitly included in the 'does not know' group is Misaka. This might be because Uiharu idolizes Misaka, and was embarrassed by her relatively weak power. Kuroko obviously knows what Uiharu's power does; they've been friends for years, they trained in Judgment together, and Kuroko actually thought about it for a while before concluding that Uiharu's power wouldn't be able to get her out of jams. Saten may or may not know, but if she doesn't know, that might be because Uiharu is sensitive to Saten's insecurities regarding her own lack of ability, so she didn't want to bring it up if Saten didn't ask her about it.
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