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Old 2010-03-10, 03:47   Link #61
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Maybe in Utopia O.O .... the mods already have their arms full with batting down twits and keeping threads on topic (never mind the behind-the-curtain stuff).

Seriously... if you're putting out good posts or posts that provide content/interest/whatever - the posrep will simply overwhelm any negrep with time. I get negrep probably at least once a week (usually from spearing someone's sacred cow I suppose, its hard to tell because usually the negrep comment is blank, gibberish, or lacks enough info to make sense).

I could probably hit the gauntlet with negrep if I just visit the "more popular action shonen" subforums and provided my analysis. I simply don't bother as I'd rather just focus on what I like.
The only way left is to get more firepower to get such a thing.
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Old 2010-03-10, 03:58   Link #62
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
As the mods have said, the system is what it is - and to my understanding there's no way to turn off only negative rep (those who know the guts of the forum software will certainly correct me if my understanding is wrong).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
On several vBulletin boards I visit there is no option for negative rep, only positive. Though there is the possibility that this is due to user mods...
xris mentioned the currently available options a couple of pages back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
The existing vB forum software does allow us the following options.

(i) Can See Who Left User Ratings - Yes / No (i.e. remove the anonymous nature of the rep system).
(ii) Can Leave Negative Reputation - Yes / No (i.e remove the ability of awarding negative reps altogether).

Currently we have these two options set to "No" and "Yes" respectively.
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Old 2010-03-10, 05:03   Link #63
Arbitres
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Join Date: Jan 2010
(I) Can See Who Left User Ratings - Yes

(II) Can Leave Negative Reputation - Yes.

@Schneizel: Either is fine at me at this point. Remove the entire system, but have users atleast know why they 'lost' the privilege, sort to speak. Because there will be cries of "We miss rep!". True enough, still... I think it'd be better to remove neg rep, and instead focus on good rep.

Though then, Good rep would be forced to be handed out sparingly. I think good rep should be deducted from an user's good rep. Kind of like spending, so they won't hand out needlessly.

Thats my opinion, anyways. Don't worry about it it's probably be discarded Lol.
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Old 2010-03-10, 08:38   Link #64
NightWish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
...to my understanding there's no way to turn off only negative rep
As mentioned there there is a user-group setting for that. I'll put a complete list for reference; so people don't need to keep guessing at what can and cannot be changed...
The user-group settings are all yes/no:
  • See Who Left User Ratings
  • Use Reputation
  • Hide Reputation from Others1
  • Leave Negative Reputation
All other settings apply to the system in general:
  • Enable/disable the reputation system (enabled, obviously)
  • New user default reputation (10 points)
  • Undefined Reputation Title ("is off the scale")
  • Number of reputation ratings to display (5, on your User CP)
  • Administrator's reputation power (disabled, we follow the same rules as everyone else)
  • Reputation power factors: Register Date, Post Count, Reputation Point
    Note: Values will not be published
  • Minimums: Post Count, Reputation Count
    Note: Values will not be published
  • Limits: Daily Reputation Clicks, User Spread, Frequency
    Note: Values will not be published
Remember though, just because there is a setting, doesn't mean we will change it.

While I have any power to guide/veto changes to the forum, the "See Who Left User Ratings" setting will not be changed independently. That is, not without a bigger change to the reputation system and user's current awards/points. It was disabled to prevent conflicts (I still think this was the right policy and given my, albeit privileged, view of the system, the "evidence" bears this out). Regardless of the correctness of the choice, anyone using the system did so with the presumption of anonymity. If the setting is changed now, existing reputation awards would have to be removed to preserve this.

The problem with disabling "Negative Reputation" was originally thought to be the unconstrained growth of reputation, which I think was already mentioned. As it turns out, I'm not convinced the evidence supports this argument however, with some people's rep almost being off the scale. It has been noted that there is very little chance for newer users to ever catch them up. There are also other good motives for keeping it (given the current system's point-awarding inflexibility), for constructive criticism/comment. Again, however, there is scant evidence to support this actually being the way it is used (it is but not that often).

The later issue may be served by other aspects of the forum (we have visitor messages now, which we didn't have before). There are various ways we've considered of countering former (unconstrained point growth), some have been mentioned in this thread. One approach raised in private was the possibility of resetting or truncating reputation if any change is made, or limiting the apparent reputation to only the last year's worth of points (i.e. you need to keep getting rep to maintain the level).

I wonder, how would people feel about having their reputation wiped or drastically reduced, if there were a change to the system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Pretty sure that's something NightWish did.
No, the only changes I made were to alter the way the forum applied limitations to reputation awarding, because the original system was even more broken than the current one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
I could try making a plug-in, unless NightWish already created the code.
Well... in response to the debate I have looked at alternatives, other possible mechanics. I settled on one that involves a 1 for 1 exchange (you give rep from your own jar, to use the cookies analogy). The interface is then changed to allow you to say how many you give, if any. You must always comment, but don't need to actually give a cookie. No negatives; the system is self limiting because the number of cookies only grows with new users, if you want to just leave a criticism, you can. Hidden rep is actually disabled1 rather than just hidden. There are some other details, but I've only hacked a prototype mod so far. I've not "play-tested" the mechanics or discussed the details with the other staff yet, so don't hold your breath.
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1 - The current setting is hide not disable. Currently people can still give you rep, you just can't see it on your User CP and other people see:
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Old 2010-03-10, 10:02   Link #65
RWBladewing
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The main issue I have with this system is that positive rep is given out so frequently for things like simply having a thread in the Fan Creations forum or posting in the "Rate that Signature!" thread that it's almost entirely meaningless. I'm not against people getting rep for posting their creations at all but I constantly see comments like "grats on starting your thread, here's your rep" which completely disregard any of the actual content, and I feel like that defeats the entire purpose. I've seen posters with rep through the roof who have never really contributed to any sort of intelligent discussion or worse, tend to be outright trolls.

Quote:
Well... in response to the debate I have looked at alternatives, other possible mechanics. I settled on one that involves a 1 for 1 exchange (you give rep from your own jar, to use the cookies analogy). The interface is then changed to allow you to say how many you give, if any. You must always comment, but don't need to actually give a cookie. No negatives; the system is self limiting because the number of cookies only grows with new users, if you want to just leave a criticism, you can. Hidden rep is actually disabled1 rather than just hidden. There are some other details, but I've only hacked a prototype mod so far. I've not "play-tested" the mechanics or discussed the details with the other staff yet, so don't hold your breath.
I really like this idea as I feel like it would completely curb what I complained about above. It would have to be coupled with some sort of reset though as some people already have so much rep it wouldn't matter how much they give out.

Kind of on the fence in regards to negative rep though. I've used it several times to successfully stop stupidity and flame wars from invading a thread but then I see topics like http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...?t=5523&page=9 where people are constantly getting negged just for not liking a certain character.
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Old 2010-03-10, 14:27   Link #66
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
I really like this idea as I feel like it would completely curb what I complained about above.
As I understood it, the system only applies to negative reputation.
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Old 2010-03-10, 14:55   Link #67
RWBladewing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
As I understood it, the system only applies to negative reputation.
Quote:
I settled on one that involves a 1 for 1 exchange (you give rep from your own jar, to use the cookies analogy). The interface is then changed to allow you to say how many you give, if any. You must always comment, but don't need to actually give a cookie. No negatives; the system is self limiting because the number of cookies only grows with new users, if you want to just leave a criticism, you can.
I interpret it as doing away with negative rep entirely and giving your positives to others.
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Old 2010-03-10, 15:37   Link #68
felix
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You're right, my bad.
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Old 2010-03-10, 16:06   Link #69
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWish View Post
It has been noted that there is very little chance for newer users to ever catch them up.
Well, a quick look at the rep chart shows that several members with 2007/2008 join dates have, in fact, catched up pretty quickly with old members. It is obviously a 'case by case scenario' but the chance to 'catch up' is most certainly there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWish View Post
I wonder, how would people feel about having their reputation wiped or drastically reduced, if there were a change to the system?
If it comes to that, a global announcement a week or so in advance could probably help ease the blow.
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Old 2010-03-10, 16:22   Link #70
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Well, a quick look at the rep chart shows that several members with 2007/2008 join dates have, in fact, catched up pretty quickly with old members. It is obviously a 'case by case scenario' but the chance to 'catch up' is most certainly there.
Agreed. But remember that the point system is exponential. A few years ago someone having more than four bars was a big deal. Now it isn't uncommon to see people with eight. As more and more people hit the point cap rep power will just become stronger and stronger overall. It is possible to adjust those point caps but at what point does the whole system become ridiculous with the amount of bars you can gain?

A new user who makes a strong impression at the right times will fly through the rep system much faster than in previous years. It's personal opinion on if that's a good thing or not though, since the reverse can be true with neg rep, although users who have rep damaged in such a manner are extremely uncommon.
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Old 2010-03-10, 16:32   Link #71
felix
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Negative reputation counts as half a point always if I remember correctly. So each time you are de-repped you always are substracted merely 0.5 points, making the scenario just as likely (or well, "unlikely") at any given point in time. Of course I could be wrong, given you have special settings.
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Old 2010-03-10, 16:34   Link #72
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Agreed. But remember that the point system is exponential. A few years ago someone having more than four bars was a big deal. Now it isn't uncommon to see people with eight. As more and more people hit the point cap rep power will just become stronger and stronger overall. It is possible to adjust those point caps but at what point does the whole system become ridiculous with the amount of bars you can gain?
Yes, it is not becoming harder for new members to catch up, it is in fact, becoming easier with each passing year.

It is also interesting that you mention the point caps in the system, which is the one thing I always though would be the one to force an eventual change in reps.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2010-03-10 at 16:44.
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Old 2010-03-11, 01:55   Link #73
bhl88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWish View Post
[snipped]
You can also have the mods block the person from using the rep system if he/she abuse it... just press a certain button.... and report why (and bam).
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2010-03-11 at 10:52. Reason: Please DO NOT quote an entire long post only to make one brief comment -_-;
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Old 2010-03-11, 07:35   Link #74
SaintessHeart
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
You can also have the mods block the person from using the rep system if he/she abuse it... just press a certain button.... and report why (and bam).
If they don't leave names, you can't block them. But apparently most people here don't have the guts to leave theirs when they negrep.

As much as I like to randomly negrep anyone who stated that I became a problem as a victim of bullying (interesting hypothesis, but that is the reason why most bullied become bullies) in the Silly stories thread, it isn't ethical so I will just leave it at that. If you have the guts to negrep, at least have the same guts to put your name there. Otherwise, you would just be like those who have bad genes passed down.
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Old 2010-03-11, 09:04   Link #75
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If they don't leave names, you can't block them. But apparently most people here don't have the guts to leave theirs when they negrep.
Moderators may view the identity of the one who de-reped you. Simply report the post(s) on which you received the inappropriate (and/or are a victim of some sort of abuse of the reputation system) and it will be dealt with if said comments violate the forum rules. Also, he is not referring to the Ignore List feature there but actually removing said users ability to use the reputation system.
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Old 2010-03-12, 00:24   Link #76
Mr. DJ
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I'm sure plenty of you ladies and gents would agree, the only real problem are people who leave rather rude, and nonsensical neg reps...I don't have a problem if I'm negged for someone disagreeing with me on at least a intelligent level, but I can honestly say that in the long run that I've been here, the vast majority of my neg reps were left by childish people, one that particularly stands out was me asking a honest question back when Gundam Seed Destiny was out, and someone left a remark that my brain needed to be upgraded. I was like "wow? really? was that really necessary?"
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Old 2010-03-12, 02:50   Link #77
Death Header
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I honestly believe that at this point in time, any concerns that are dealing with reputation, whether they are positive or negative, should be eliminated for now. I'm sure that most of us have received negative rep for acting out/having difference of opinions, but my biggest concern is, is the reputation justified?

Some of us have reported to a mod regarding towards receiving reputation. Too bad most of these reports just don't seem to work.

Quote:
You can also have the mods block the person from using the rep system if he/she abuse it... just press a certain button.... and report why (and bam).
PMs work better than reports. Just a personal suggestion.
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Old 2010-03-12, 12:05   Link #78
felix
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The two you (DjTrizz & Death Header) are really not helping any point you are trying to make by giving yourself as a example.
  • are you trying to say its impossible to get bad reputation over a question? Overly silly or nonsensical questions can be very annoying, that's why we have a Silly question, [...] thread in General Chat. Telling us its "unfair" and "the other guy was childish" doesn't do anything more then make yourself look childish for "pointing the finger" instead of providing a more concrete case.
  • secondly, reputation is always justified -- you are not being negative repped by a bot, you obviously said something to piss the other person off. Yes you don't have to "manage your wording" to please others (or however you want to put it), but then realise the other person doesn't have to either. The only difference between a message on the forum and the reputation message is that the reputation message can be as personal as the person wishes, since it fits in the private message category as far as the forum policies are concerned.
  • finally, stop with this hypocricy around "but it was just my opinion". Negative reputation is by definition a opinion towards your post -- so if you want to cling to that belief follow your own advice and respect the other person's opinion instead of complaining how everyone is just required to respect yours.
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Old 2010-03-12, 16:36   Link #79
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felix is correct about how moderators generally address rep complaints. There is no rule that says that rep needs to be justified. You can leave whatever positive or negative rep you want for whatever reason, and it's fine with these three exceptions:

1. If it represents a concerted effort to manipulate the system (either in your favour, in someone else's favour, or at someone else's expense).

2. If the rep comment contains inappropriate language that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere on the forum (see the rest of the Forum Rules).

3. If it represents a concerted effort to unfairly target someone (for example, if someone were neg-reping every single post someone makes no matter what just because they don't like them).

People always want to think that they're in that third category, but that's extremely rarely the case. A few neg reps here and there doesn't mean you're being targeted.

So if someone reports negative rep just because they think they "didn't deserve it", the correct moderator action is usually no action. Both positive and negative rep are equally arbitrary; that's just the way the system works. It's not surprising that we mods never get Reports/PMs complaining about unjustified positive rep.


Edit: To be more clear, this is just a reflection of the way the system works now and the way moderators currently handle related issues. If we change the system, that would change the policy. In this post, I wasn't really trying to cast judgement on the proposed changes in one way or the other.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2010-03-12 at 18:29.
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Old 2010-03-13, 07:33   Link #80
brocko
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Is there an option to see a history of reps that you, yourself have given out? You can't really do much to feed your curiosity at this point but except wonder.
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