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Old 2010-03-10, 15:06   Link #201
Nya~n
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Originally Posted by Siegfridus View Post
Well, the anime set out "because you showed me your ability now I show you mine" thing...wich i think is a bit foolish way of reasoning
As a famous cannibal once said, "Quid pro quo"
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Old 2010-03-12, 13:13   Link #202
CrazyPerson
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Sorry for the delay, midterms tend to disrupt my ability to make well reasoned posts, so I didn't make them.

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Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
Ah, but i said 'within the bounds of her AIM,' but not 'encompassing her AIM.' No esper constantly exerts their power over all points within the bounds of their AIM, so if her power were 'thermodynamic isolation,' then she should be able to selectively isolate only the portion of her AIM that overlaps with the box of taiyaki, thus creating a closed system that, at a state of equilibrium, would be approximately the temperature of warm taiyaki.
I don't contest this. This is a valid interpretation. I just hate how there's not enough information from the anime to confirm a right or wrong for either of us.

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Originally Posted by Alhazred
Which is why i proposed the idea of a 'threshold.' For instance: let us say her 'range' is '+/- 50 degrees.' If the temperature outside the closed system is 75 degrees, and the temperature inside the system is 115 degrees, then she could isolate the system. If, on the other hand, the temperature inside the system were 150 degrees, then her isolation would fail. If this were the case, then one way the power could be improved would be by widening its 'range of effect.'It is not necessarily the case that the ability to affect a particular frame of reference also grants the ability to affect all frames of reference that encompass the frame of reference you can affect. I will admit, this is a conceptual difficulty inherent in trying to construct a power that operates by manipulating natural laws, rather than one that operates 'simply' by violating conservation of energy, but bear with me for a moment.
But all frames of references are equal under the equivalence principle. Anything that's only valid in a specific frame of reference and not in others is not considered invariant, and in physics, means that it is either not possible, or doesn't exist.

While all esper abilities make break laws like conservation of energy or momentum, all observers in all frames of reference can agree on which law is broken. If not, there's no consistent universe for there to be anyone in. This is the very basis of General Relativity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
One could ask, if Aerohand and Hydrokinesis are somehow subsets of 'pure' Telekinesis, rather than 'material manipulation,' why can Kongou not telekinetically affect anything other than atmospherically dispersed gases? Similarly, you could ask how Accelerator's power is any different from very strong telekinesis, or why 'Aerohand' and 'Offensive Armor' are both considered level 4, when 'Aerohand' should theoretically be able to accomplish the exact same effect as 'Offensive Armor,' in addition to all the other things it can do.
Your example here isn't valid. You're assuming the two powers are subsets of telekinesis. They could be affecting their respective materials through unrelated means. You're relating abilities because of their effect and not their cause. An example: a ball on a table moves towards someone. Maybe they telekinetically applied a force to move it. Or maybe they generated a specific gravity field to affect the ball only. While the effect is the same, cause of the effects aren't subsets of each other. On the other hand, my example is valid because I'm evaluating different effects due to the same natural law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Part of increasing level is increasing your understanding of how your 'personal reality' functions. In another thread, i actually did posit that greater understanding of her power might lead Uiharu to make the mental connection between vibrational motion and transitional motion, and the expansion of abilities such a breakthrough would grant. If her power remained the ability to create 'closed systems,' it could lead to some very bizarre effects - including the 'Constant Speed' effect. It may be that Constant Speed and Constant Temperature are both subsets of the same broader power, and the users of each are just starting with different base assumptions about the nature of their personal reality.
A logical progression of thought, but hasn't been verified so far. We've seen no espers in the process of gaining levels, only the knowledge that it is possible. The level upper is invalid. Even if teachers in the city have pushed this thought, it could still be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time teachers have taught something wrong until a better understanding was gained.

Again though, having control of entropy may give constant speed and constant temperature effects, but being able to generate a constant speed effect may not guarantee that person to have entropic control abilities. But yes, if Uiharu ups her level, she may start displaying a whole range of super powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
I look forward to it! I'm enjoying this quite a bit as well. It's nice to have an interlocutor who doesn't immediately counter with, 'Well, Accelerator/Touma is still better.'
Saten's power is obviously better. >.> Totally owns those other two.

This reminds me, I have an interesting theory on how Touma's ability can be made consistent with the problem of "stopping railgun blasts but not accelerator accelerated objects." I should post that some other time.

I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things:

-Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.)
-Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities.

Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.

(To spite the author though, I will point out that if the tayaki's maintained at a freshly baked temperature for that long, it's probably dried out and untasty when they eat it.)
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Old 2010-03-12, 14:11   Link #203
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Sorry for the delay, midterms tend to disrupt my ability to make well reasoned posts, so I didn't make them.
Np; just in time for the new episode to... not reveal anything new, regarding Uiharu or Saten's powers, as far as i can tell from summaries ...
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
I don't contest this. This is a valid interpretation. I just hate how there's not enough information from the anime to confirm a right or wrong for either of us.
Unfortunately, with only a few episodes left, i doubt the necessary information will become available anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
But all frames of references are equal under the equivalence principle. Anything that's only valid in a specific frame of reference and not in others is not considered invariant, and in physics, means that it is either not possible, or doesn't exist.

While all esper abilities make break laws like conservation of energy or momentum, all observers in all frames of reference can agree on which law is broken. If not, there's no consistent universe for there to be anyone in. This is the very basis of General Relativity.
I wasn't disputing that a power should function in the same way in all frames of reference; was was stating that a specific power user might not be able to apply it equally to all frames of reference. This might be due to a paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding; take your pick.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Your example here isn't valid. You're assuming the two powers are subsets of telekinesis. They could be affecting their respective materials through unrelated means. You're relating abilities because of their effect and not their cause. An example: a ball on a table moves towards someone. Maybe they telekinetically applied a force to move it. Or maybe they generated a specific gravity field to affect the ball only. While the effect is the same, cause of the effects aren't subsets of each other. On the other hand, my example is valid because I'm evaluating different effects due to the same natural law.
Conservation of Energy is a pretty broad natural law; it encompasses everything in the observable universe. Any effect with no observable cause is a candidate for being a violation of Conservation of Energy. I wasn't saying that all powers that 'move things around' must be sub-powers of 'general telekinesis;' i was pretty much saying the exact opposite. Until they define a 'power source' for power users, all powers violate conservation of energy; they are effects with no quantifiable cause. I'm saying that the specific mechanisms by which individual powers violate conservation of energy can be infinitely varied, and 'entropy manipulation' might be one of those mechanisms.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
A logical progression of thought, but hasn't been verified so far. We've seen no espers in the process of gaining levels, only the knowledge that it is possible. The level upper is invalid. Even if teachers in the city have pushed this thought, it could still be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time teachers have taught something wrong until a better understanding was gained.
Misaka is often pointed out as an example of a student who progressed from level 1 to level 5, but they have also stated that genetics play a large role in ability. Still, it is understood that Misaka was not consciously capable at birth of all the feats she is capable of in present canon.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Again though, having control of entropy may give constant speed and constant temperature effects, but being able to generate a constant speed effect may not guarantee that person to have entropic control abilities. But yes, if Uiharu ups her level, she may start displaying a whole range of super powers.
I was never arguing for a guarantee; i was just arguing for the possibility. There are a bunch of different ways that the observed effects could be produced; the fun part is looking for the ones that fit best with what we can observe - and the ones that would allow Uiharu to fry Accelerator to a crisp sometime in the future...
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Saten's power is obviously better. >.> Totally owns those other two.
Well, they made good on revealing Uiharu's power (to an extent), so hopefully we'll know what Saten's is as well within the next few episodes.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
This reminds me, I have an interesting theory on how Touma's ability can be made consistent with the problem of "stopping railgun blasts but not accelerator accelerated objects." I should post that some other time.
I have given up arguing about Touma's power; i think it pretty much does whatever it needs to do in the story the author is writing, and probably doesn't have any deep, underlying rhyme or reason.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things:

-Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.)
-Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities.

Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.
Heh, but if that were the case, then what form does the energy take? Microwaves? Direct increase in the kinetic energy of the molecules? What molecules? Just water, or anything? So many possibilities...
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
(To spite the author though, I will point out that if the tayaki's maintained at a freshly baked temperature for that long, it's probably dried out and untasty when they eat it.)
To which the author would probably reply, 'No it's not; it's still moist and delicious. Look at how much Haruue enjoys getting that bean jam all over her face.' and then not bother to explain how that's possible...
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Old 2010-03-12, 14:50   Link #204
CrazyPerson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
I wasn't disputing that a power should function in the same way in all frames of reference; was was stating that a specific power user might not be able to apply it equally to all frames of reference. This might be due to a paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding; take your pick.
I'm not clear what you are saying here. Paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding shouldn't matter. If a power user applies a power to their frame of reference, it must be applied equally to all frames. There is no pick an choose. Could you clarify?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Misaka is often pointed out as an example of a student who progressed from level 1 to level 5, but they have also stated that genetics play a large role in ability. Still, it is understood that Misaka was not consciously capable at birth of all the feats she is capable of in present canon.
True, but I'm just pointing out that understanding the concept of personalized reality might not be the key at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson
I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things:

-Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.)
-Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities.

Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.
Heh, but if that were the case, then what form does the energy take? Microwaves? Direct increase in the kinetic energy of the molecules? What molecules? Just water, or anything? So many possibilities...
Most likely just direct increase in kinetic vibration energy. Microwaves or anything else would involve a secondary power which isn't suggested anywhere. Most likely it applies equally to all molecules and not just water; that would requiring picking and choosing.

And to the "no, it's not..." thing, well, he'd have to live with the fact that I pointed out one more consistency! (and then he'd not care about it, which makes me sad.)
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Old 2010-03-12, 15:09   Link #205
Alhazred
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
I'm not clear what you are saying here. Paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding shouldn't matter. If a power user applies a power to their frame of reference, it must be applied equally to all frames. There is no pick an choose. Could you clarify
Well, take Accelerator, for instance. Accelerator's power is supposedly 'vector control.' If his power actually is to alter vectors on an absolute scale, and it was applied to an object simultaneously all the way down to the quantum scale and all the way up to the universal scale, then if he told a bullet moving toward him, relative to his own frame of reference, to then move away from him, the bullet would disintegrate, transform into either a super-fluid quark plasma or some form of pure energy, and shoot off away from him at some complex transformation of the expansion speed of the universe. Frame of reference must be a trait that can be defined selectively for some of these powers to function as advertised.
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True, but I'm just pointing out that understanding the concept of personalized reality might not be the key at all.
Possible, but i would personally say that this seems rather unlikely in the context of this story.
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Most likely just direct increase in kinetic vibration energy. Microwaves or anything else would involve a secondary power which isn't suggested anywhere. Most likely it applies equally to all molecules and not just water; that would requiring picking and choosing.
Picking and choosing, or rather 'inherent limitation,' seems to be an important aspect of many powers in this story.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
And to the "no, it's not..." thing, well, he'd have to live with the fact that I pointed out one more consistency! (and then he'd not care about it, which makes me sad.)
Heh, at least the author is enthusiastic about his particular brand of broken pseudo-science. Most of them in the shounen genre seem to just make up and change the 'story rules' whenever they feel like it...
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Old 2010-03-12, 18:02   Link #206
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Quote:
Well, take Accelerator, for instance. Accelerator's power is supposedly 'vector control.' If his power actually is to alter vectors on an absolute scale, and it was applied to an object simultaneously all the way down to the quantum scale and all the way up to the universal scale, then if he told a bullet moving toward him, relative to his own frame of reference, to then move away from him, the bullet would disintegrate, transform into either a super-fluid quark plasma or some form of pure energy, and shoot off away from him at some complex transformation of the expansion speed of the universe. Frame of reference must be a trait that can be defined selectively for some of these powers to function as advertised.


There's no evidence to suggest what half of the stuff you just wrote.

Any object accelerator uses his power on doesn't need to transform into any other state of energy or otherwise.

Why does the expansion on the universe matter?

A bullet he tells to move in the opposite direction to him doesn't transform into some energy any more than a girder he's throwing a Touma.
------------------------
Focusing on the more important: I hope we're not misunderstanding each other on the concept of frame of reference. Are you saying that accelerator defines his frame of reference to be at rest, so that the when the bullet hits him, he can define an opposite vector for that bullet to go?
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Old 2010-03-12, 18:18   Link #207
Alhazred
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post


There's no evidence to suggest what half of the stuff you just wrote.

Any object accelerator uses his power on doesn't need to transform into any other state of energy or otherwise.

Why does the expansion on the universe matter?

A bullet he tells to move in the opposite direction to him doesn't transform into some energy any more than a girder he's throwing a Touma.
------------------------
Focusing on the more important: I hope we're not misunderstanding each other on the concept of frame of reference. Are you saying that accelerator defines his frame of reference to be at rest, so that the when the bullet hits him, he can define an opposite vector for that bullet to go?
The bullet is a 'complex system' just as much as a building is. It consists of molecules, atoms, subatomic particles and energetic wave forms, all of which have vectors that Accelerator can (and does) adjust in canon. He can bend light; he can redirect lightning; he can create plasma by controlling the vectors of electrons independent of the nuclei they orbit.

He can also 'go big' as well. Recently in the light novels he changed the vector of an entire building relative to the rotational center of the earth, causing the entire building to move 2 kilometers contra-rotationally at the angular velocity of an object on the surface of the earth. If he expanded this even further, he could alter vectors relative to center of the solar system, the center of the galaxy, the center of the universe, etc.

Thus, if he told all of the independent vectors in a bullet, from the subatomic scale all the way up to the scale where they can be perceived as a bullet, to 'go that way,' all at once, relative to the center of the universe, the bullet would break down into subatomic particles and energy, and shoot off in the indicated direction with velocity determined as a function of the expansion speed of the universe.
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Old 2010-03-12, 18:58   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
The bullet is a 'complex system' just as much as a building is. It consists of molecules, atoms, subatomic particles and energetic wave forms, all of which have vectors that Accelerator can (and does) adjust in canon. He can bend light; he can redirect lightning; he can create plasma by controlling the vectors of electrons independent of the nuclei they orbit.
Yup, so far so good.

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Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
He can also 'go big' as well. Recently in the light novels he changed the vector of an entire building relative to the rotational center of the earth, causing the entire building to move 2 kilometers contra-rotationally at the angular velocity of an object on the surface of the earth. If he expanded this even further, he could alter vectors relative to center of the solar system, the center of the galaxy, the center of the universe, etc.
All good until "centre of the universe." (You're also wrong on accelerator being able to move everything relative to the centre of the universe. There is no centre of the universe. Everything else is fine.)


-the earth takes it's frame of reference to be zero. Then accelerator changes the vector of the building and it moves. To the earth, the building just moved 2 kilometres.

-to the building itself though, it would set it's own frame of reference to be zero, and suddenly, to the building, it appears that the earth just rotated underneath it 2 kilometres.

The earth would say the building moved, and the building says the earth moved, but both frames are valid and equal. Simply choosing a frame of reference doesn't make it special.

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Originally Posted by Alhazred View Post
Thus, if he told all of the independent vectors in a bullet, from the subatomic scale all the way up to the scale where they can be perceived as a bullet, to 'go that way,' all at once, relative to the center of the universe, the bullet would break down into subatomic particles and energy, and shoot off in the indicated direction with velocity determined as a function of the expansion speed of the universe.
Accelerator can't tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to the centre of the universe. There is none.

Accerator can tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to himself though.

There's a logical break from where you jump from "bullet goes that way" to "bullet breaks down into subatomic particles and energy." One does not follow the other.

While the bullet is a huge complex system with multiple vectors from the atoms and spinning electrons, to the frame of reference of the bullet, the whole universe is moving towards the bullet. The complex system of "the bullet" is going about it's merry business with all it's internal electron orbiting and so on. When the universe, with accelerator in it, hits the bullet, the bullet sees the rest of the universe bounce away from it uniformly. This frame of reference is just as valid as Accelerator setting himself as an unmoving frame of reference where the bullet is heading towards him, then the bullet is bounced by his power.

There's no picking a frame of reference, they're all valid. And technically, any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me."

We might need to move this over to the accelerator thread. If you want to, quote my post and just post in the other thread. I'll check both threads for your reply.
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Old 2010-03-12, 19:00   Link #209
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Uiharu cried seas and got teleporter-slapped. I forgive her annoyance from the last two episodes. Go, flower girl, go!
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Old 2010-03-12, 20:11   Link #210
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[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
All good until "centre of the universe." (You're also wrong on accelerator being able to move everything relative to the centre of the universe. There is no centre of the universe. Everything else is fine.)
You've got me there. Truthfully, i haven't taken a physics course in over a decade. Much of my point still stands, though; compared to, say, the center of our own galaxy, the angular velocity of the earth is pretty mind-boggling.
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-the earth takes it's frame of reference to be zero. Then accelerator changes the vector of the building and it moves. To the earth, the building just moved 2 kilometres.

-to the building itself though, it would set it's own frame of reference to be zero, and suddenly, to the building, it appears that the earth just rotated underneath it 2 kilometres.

The earth would say the building moved, and the building says the earth moved, but both frames are valid and equal. Simply choosing a frame of reference doesn't make it special.
The point i was making was that the vector changed relative to the earth, but not necessarily relative to Accelerator, invalidating your later assertion that 'any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me.",' unless Accelerator is presumed to have the ability to alter the vector of the entire universe external to that building (possible, i guess, if all frames of reference are equal, but that makes for a power that could do some catastrophic things on an astronomical scale, unless there are limitations set somehow, which is where the dependence on calculation and understanding come in).
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Accelerator can't tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to the centre of the universe. There is none.
That point, i will conceded; my bad.
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
Accerator can tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to himself though.
Or, apparently, relative to the earth itself; the impression is given that he can choose. On what scale does that choice end?
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Originally Posted by CrazyPerson View Post
There's a logical break from where you jump from "bullet goes that way" to "bullet breaks down into subatomic particles and energy." One does not follow the other.

While the bullet is a huge complex system with multiple vectors from the atoms and spinning electrons, to the frame of reference of the bullet, the whole universe is moving towards the bullet. The complex system of "the bullet" is going about it's merry business with all it's internal electron orbiting and so on. When the universe, with accelerator in it, hits the bullet, the bullet sees the rest of the universe bounce away from it uniformly. This frame of reference is just as valid as Accelerator setting himself as an unmoving frame of reference where the bullet is heading towards him, then the bullet is bounced by his power.
And why can he not affect the vectors of subatomic particles within a system? He does it all the time. He's pale because from birth he has been subconsciously altering the vectors of ultraviolet light. The light is not isolated; it interacts with matter in the atmosphere, and is therefore part of a system. The atmosphere is perhaps not as cohesive a system as a bullet, but it is still a system. All matter is technically part of a single system (all objects with mass affect all other objects with mass gravitationally, for instance), but no esper power applies to all matter uniformly and at the same time. Why not?
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There's no picking a frame of reference, they're all valid. And technically, any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me."
See above.
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We might need to move this over to the accelerator thread. If you want to, quote my post and just post in the other thread. I'll check both threads for your reply.
I'm not sure its worth belaboring this particular point much further. The definition of accelerator's power is particularly troublesome because vectors change based on the location of the 'observer.' The moment he decides, 'the observer doesn't have to be me' it all gets very messy... unless of course we want to say that it observer is always him, and he is simply able to affect the entire universe at once.

Last edited by Alhazred; 2010-03-13 at 10:51.
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Old 2010-03-13, 03:54   Link #211
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I might start to worry about the catgirl population now...
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Old 2010-03-13, 04:27   Link #212
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wow, amazing tread: love the spechula
if you two, Alhazred and CrazyPerson, don't mind me being third spoke, I'd love to join your conversation.

(I have read over your posts, and have a general gist of what each person said, and where you are coming from, but being the lazy person i am, i probably won't quote anything. Please correct me if I misinterpret or am wrong. Since both of you seem to be familiar with physics I will make assumptions about your knowledge. And yeah, i made this account with the sole purpose of posting in this epic tread.)

First of let me say that we are making assumptions about the world the anime inhabits that might necessarily not be true. There could be some exotic form of physics and unfamiliar laws which affect reality. We are, in fact speculating about the precise physical mechanisms which control a fictional world, designed for the purpose of entertainment (i guess you call this part of the entertainment experience too). However, i do believe we are entailed to these assumption as no meaningful conversation could arise without using the laws and logic familiar to us.

It is also apparent that the universe that Uiharu inhabits is similar to our own, as it is created by individuals who live in our reality, and seemingly want to emulate an enhanced version of our reality through the creative medium. A corollary of this, is that the director or creative designer in charge of implementing this realism might have untrue assumptions about how the world works, or might not have understood a physical phenomenon to the point at which they can successfully implement it in the story. This is readily evident in most anime, and especially so when it deals with unfamiliar environments like space. (constant thrust does not equal constant velocity!) Uiharu's world, does have its plot holes, both physically and human aesthetically, however overall it is still a close enough representation of our own world to capture our imaginations.

I agree with Alhazred when he says computation is an important aspect of an ability user's power. It makes sense when you consider the fact that information is inseparable from its physical reality. Most users can only use their powers by thinking about it, and the repeated referenced Personal Reality, seems to suggest that the inner subjective reality of an individual modeled in the brain, seems to have an effect on the objective world. It also follows that users who understand their ability better would be stronger than those who did not. The exact physical mechanism between a user's mental computation and the physical manifestation of an ability i cannot say. They haven't given us nearly enough information, but if I had to guess, the AIM field generated by the computation of the mental system somehow causes changes to occur on a metaphysical level (probably defined by their understanding of physics) which then influence their actual world.

This is all theoretical and shouldn't really be taken to seriously, but an interesting conclusion i can draw from it is that ability users define their own power. I think it was stated previously that a power works based not on an absolute mechanism, but on how a user believe their power to work. If we consider that most users start of powerless, or with very little ability, it becomes easy to imagine a reinforcing process where a young esper develops a power based on what he sees/imagines his power doing. Makes sense when you consider that what dictates certain users to certain powers seems arbitrary. In reality all abilities are probably really manifestations of a few phenomena, or more likely a single one. People just interpret it differently based on how they experience it. It also explains why certain people can't use powers, as they do not have the ability to imagine themselves using a power which defies physical convention (they are to grounded in reality) as well as the genetic basis for powers, as minds are in a large part designed by genes. Although i think this is already understood.

Getting to the topic of this tread, if we think about the specific mechanism involved, i think uiharu's ability is exactly what she says it is: to be able to keep physical systems at a constant temperature. It doesn't matter whether this is achieved through keeping Entropy constant, or through isolate a system (yes, they are different, will explain), or through heating/cooling the system herself. Why? Because that's the limits to the understanding of her ability. There is no specific physical mechanism because it's unobserved. As time passes, her power will evolve with her perception of it. So if she realizes she is really just a pyro, she will be able to create fireballs and such. However, that's an extreme and unlikely example. Because the human mind is so rooted in reality, it is much more likely that she'll realize she can increase or decrease temperatures as well, or invent a reasoning, such as zero entropic change for her ability which becomes reality as she gets used to it.

Some of these of these physical mechanisms are quite fun to speculate however. For example, an isolated system would mean that any system Uiharu affected with her ability, would become essentially unobservable (such as the taiyaki in the box) as any interaction by photons or detectable forces would change the arrangement of the system. This means that Uiharu could make things invisible (unobservable is a better word - think event horizon), or rather nonexistent in the physical reality of her universe. This doesn't really seem that plausible, as she would have interpreted her ability as being different to what she thinks it is. Also if she is using her ability to overclock her computer when she does her thing, how can she receive information from other networks unless they were also isolated in the same system as her computer. Unlikely due to her low level.

Another one thats interesting, and probably more applicable if she chose, was constant entropy. I know CrazyPerson doesn't really like this idea but i think your thinking of entropy in the wrong way. Rather than no exchange of heat between the box and the environment, what if Uiharu was able to control probability instead. Remember the second law of thermodynamics is only a suggestion not a rule. It's more likely for a system to go from a state of high entropy into a state of lower one, but there is no law at the fundamental level which says it must. Thus Uiharu might be able to control some metavalue of entropic probability of particles that interact with the system in question. For example all the kinetic molecular energy lost to heat by the box, the same arbitrary amount of kinetic energy is added back into the box. This would inherently be different from her intentionally heating the system, as the physical phenomena would be unimportant, random, and uncontrollable, and only lead to the desired effect of maintaining constant entropy.

Of course you could explain all the ability through some manipulation of probabilities and metavalues (basically information entropy), and thats the point since all the powers have a common source.

A consequence of the idea that all the powers are from the same source, and the understanding of a power leads to more precise definitions of the boundaries under which a power can operate means that people who do not contemplate their powers at all, can have much broader abilities. This requires that information processing, remain discrete, by using abstractions outside thinking. Knowledge of how to manipulate the powers could be passed down without the actual need to understand the physical system that dictates the power. Yes, i am talking about the magic. This completely makes sense when you consider that magic in the anime requires absolute ignorance about the process, and that espers, who use a different mental model about the physical phenomenon that causes the power when compared to magicians, can't use magic (vise-versa).

I am getting of topic, but if we return to the problem of the mechanism that controls Uiharu's power, my general thesis is that there is no definite mechanism as the user herself hasn't defined one. But if i had to chose the most probable; some sort of entropic control of physical (and informational) systems.

-Kwantum0

PS. Is it just me or are some or do some of the powers seems FTL? If so why are there no time travel mechanism archs?

PPS. Accelerator probably can only change the vectors of objects based on definite reference frames he can comprehend. The angular momentum of the earth is OK (somehow...), but the differences in velocities between the galactic core and everyday things is to large to meaningfully understand.
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Old 2010-03-13, 07:34   Link #213
Marcus H.
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Time travel would be too complicated, even more complicated than calculating with the involvement of the 11th dimension. Awaki Musujime, a powerful long-distance Teleporter at Level 4 has developed a trauma of using her powers on herself because she experienced being stuck waist-down on concrete after teleporting.

Another thing to ponder on is that the 11th Dimension is somewhat misleading because there are no 5-10th dimensions to begin with, well, AFAIK. Teleportation and some other powers require manipulation of 3 dimensions, but Time Travel would require both mastery of the 3 dimensions plus the ability to manipulate the 4th dimension on himself, which would be a whole new world of calculations.
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Old 2010-03-13, 09:14   Link #214
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Actually, time isn't a '4th dimension' in the sense that the other dimensions are. It's only called that because it's convenient to conceptualize it as a 'fourth axis' visually. The actual 4th dimension, as well as dimensions 5-11, are actually further spatial dimensions. If I remember my random meanderings through wikipedia correctly, dimensions 4-10 are pretty much confirmed as part of a theory called 'superstring' or something, and it's only the 11th which is currently being contended (alternatively, there might be even more). If I've got it right, the spatial dimensions we (as humans) can't sense are supposedly the dimensions by which non-contact forces like gravity or the strong and weak nuclear forces work, via the interactions between subatomic particles such as quarks ('cause, y'know for example, how can gravity pull objects towards each other if they aren't even touching? lol, you might think 'what are you saying, don't even ask that question' but it turns out, if you think about it, that maybe they actually are touching. It's just that the way they do so is via some theoretical particles which are called gravitrons, which are connected to each other in a higher dimension). As for the 'string' part of string theory, those are the theoretical things 'connecting' all these particles in those higher dimensions--what we percieve as 'particles' are really just the ends of these 'strings', the rest of which are hidden in some other dimension.

Teleporters using the 11th dimension to teleport things therefore makes a 'meh' sort of sense to me, given my low-level understanding of this stuff. Moving through a higher spatial dimension would indeed appear to be teleportation to our perception, just like how they explain what we percieve as 'forces at a distance' like gravity. But I'm sure that, to all the real physicists who know what the 11th dimension is actually supposed to do or who might even be arguing that it doesn't exist, such an explanation for psychic 'teleporting' abilities might be completely off-base.

To the rest of the physics guys: lol, I'm just a n00b procrastinating his way through an undergraduate degree here. My lectures have gotten nowhere near addressing this stuff (don't think they ever will), so call me out if anything I've said was complete bullshit.
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Old 2010-03-13, 16:21   Link #215
kwantum0
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Time travel would be too complicated, even more complicated than calculating with the involvement of the 11th dimension. Awaki Musujime, a powerful long-distance Teleporter at Level 4 has developed a trauma of using her powers on herself because she experienced being stuck waist-down on concrete after teleporting.
Well, what i meant was an arch that included some aspect of time travel and the fun involved with paradoxes and stuff like that. You don't actually need a time traveling power. Since some abilities are FTL, information can be sent through time by utilizing these powers. If so i can imagine a story arch based on a time travel mechanism which is an affect of an unrelated ability. I think it would be really interesting and probably a good direction from a creative point of view. I was just wondering why we don't have any Time travel archs yet. (also, abilities which use frames of reference close to the SoL could experience weird relativistic effects which would also be interesting as a story device)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Another thing to ponder on is that the 11th Dimension is somewhat misleading because there are no 5-10th dimensions to begin with, well, AFAIK. Teleportation and some other powers require manipulation of 3 dimensions, but Time Travel would require both mastery of the 3 dimensions plus the ability to manipulate the 4th dimension on himself, which would be a whole new world of calculations.
once again, since we are speculating abilities which already break the laws of physics, i doubt it matters to much. You don't necessarily need to manipulate any dimensions for time traveling, you just need to travel fast enough. Also in terms of calculation you are correct in assuming it would be more difficult. Although probably more so conceptually, then computationally.

Quote:
Actually, time isn't a '4th dimension' in the sense that the other dimensions are. It's only called that because it's convenient to conceptualize it as a 'fourth axis' visually. The actual 4th dimension, as well as dimensions 5-11, are actually further spatial dimensions.
First of all space and time are the same thing, they exist in a single inseparable fabric we call spacetime. Dimensions are just ways we conceptually divide this fabric to understand it easier. In all practicality, physicist treat space and time the same. In this way time is the forth dimension. The only difference is, there is only a single direction to it. There are many interesting ways to explain the arrow of time, the most correct in my opinion is that the directionality is an emergent property of physical laws. At the atomic level, an event is equally valid either way through the forth dimension, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Yet, at larger scales this doesn't hold true, and part of that has to do with probability, specifically in terms of entropy. Entropy defines the arrow of time, systems generally decay from states of low entropy, that is specific organization, to states of high entropy, chaotic organization. This happens because in large systems there are many more ways to arrange particle without order that there are to arrange them with order.

If you imagine the brain as a computational system, it is much easier for it to discern simple and more ordered systems than chaotic ones. Thus, its easier for us to think of past events, which are computational simple, then to think of future events which are harder to calculate. That is why the human mind perceives an arrow that is not necessarily true. The universe works just as well forwards as backwards, just only way is computationally simpler to understand.

This is probably not the best explanation, and if your interested in this topic you should search for "entropy and the arrow of time"

Sol Falling, you are basically correct about string theory (now membrane theory), the only thing i'd caution you on is that String theory is one of those ideas that has been and might always will be 10 years from completion. Its a nice idea, but by no means the correct one. I do believe that there are probably other dimensions, and that reality is much grander than we imagine, or can possible imagine.

(teleporters and timetravelers - its the same thing - are forth dimensional beings)
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Old 2010-03-13, 17:38   Link #216
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Dear God, look at all the paragraphs. It's just a freaking anime. You guys are insane I tell you. Insane.
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Old 2010-03-13, 17:51   Link #217
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Out off topic posts are out off topic D:
Of course the discussion is interesting why not to move it to a better thread?
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:30   Link #218
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
Well... creating energy out of nothing does seem like a common trait with all of them ESPers...

Still, I bemoan the discovery that Uiharu turns out to be a Fire-type pokemon. Maybe someday, Flame users understand that they are in fact controlling oscillating vectors on individual atoms and take control of that, thus leveling up as wannabe Accels.

Maybe that is why we don't see Fireblasters above Level 3, besides being a relatively common skill.
You do realize that telepathy is probably the most powerfully broad ability out there? Sure, Accelerater has it simplified for him, but he has his limitations. A super telepathic person can bend light waves, alter quark behavior and remake spacetime in his/her AIM field as we know it. If you can alter how subatomic particles behave, YOU WIN.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:43   Link #219
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surely you meant telekinesis.

Also, it wouldn't seem to imply telekinesis in the classic sense per se. More like telekinesis as an action mechanism. Aero Shooters, for example, can't use telekinesis in the broad spectrum, but maybe the method employed to move the wind is selective telekinesis biased towards air.
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Old 2010-03-15, 05:07   Link #220
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Anyone's got a catchy thread title he/she can suggest for this interesting current topic of discussion?
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