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Old 2010-03-14, 01:39   Link #101
Schneizel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
No, it's simply called finding side effects to a proposition.
More like ignoring good and bad rep being diff sides of the same coin.
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Old 2010-03-14, 02:12   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Sig makers are often taken for granted and many people don't seem to realize how hard it is to keep requests on check. There's no magic "make sig" button on photoshop and sig makers often need to go out of their way just to complete the request of a stranger.

Yes, they are not forced to do it to begin with, yet, the fact remains that they still do. IMHO, they and the folks that make the Kairing drawings for the main page, are among the ones that deserve rep the most.
Have to agree with your opinion.

If there's a built in "make sig" button in photoshop, I think there would be a lot less people requesting for sigs. Ok, seriously now... making a forum signature requires time and effort to accomplish. There's someone in the fan creations section who made an avatar + sig pair for me last Christmas, and he fully deserved the +rep. Would have given that person more than one cookie if I could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As I wrote in one of those links, I once saw the neg rep aspect of the rep system as providing a good barrier against genuinely trollish or abusively flaming posting.

I'm starting to think that neg reps are now used primarily over a simple and civil difference of opinion.

If so, is the neg rep aspect of the rep system worth it? Should we scrap it?

Just something I want to throw out there for the Moderating staff, and other fellow posters here, to consider.
Even in the past giving a - has been used to express difference in opinion.

I do wonder if you're familiar with the Japanese Saimoe 2007 or the Korean Best Moe 2007 thread?
If not, then I'll tell you that those used to be the places where sometimes the mere act of voting someone could get you -repped. Espescially in the final rounds, when people's emotions run high. Believe it or not, I even got a - for congratulating Hinagiku on her victory over Shana at the Korean tournament.

As for my opinion on the rep system, it's fine as it is.
The + can overcome the - in time, just try to avoid the more volatile topics on the forum.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2010-03-14 at 05:38.
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Old 2010-03-14, 03:10   Link #103
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
I could spin this multiple ways.
No need really, fansubbers and scanlators are also worthy of praise for what they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
I hold to my opinion that getting rep for making sigs is bullshit. And I would say the same thing if people repped fansubbers who posted here just because they're fansubbers who sub the anime they watch.
And I hold my own that it is not. Being grateful about it, is never gonna count as 'bullshit' in my book.

Or as they say around here, we can agree to disagree.
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Old 2010-03-14, 05:33   Link #104
Schneizel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
No need really, fansubbers and scanlators are also worthy of praise for what they do.
I don't think they're worthy - I just brought them up because I'm a fansubber and you read very "I'm a sig maker and I'm butthurt about your comment".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
And I hold my own that it is not. Being grateful about it, is never gonna count as 'bullshit' in my book.
You consider it "being grateful", I consider it "circlejerking". Keep in mind that this exchange started over reputation being constructive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Or as they say around here, we can agree to disagree.
More "endurance to reply or not" tbh.
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Old 2010-03-14, 05:51   Link #105
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
As of that post I have received a couple of anonymous negreps with random useless comments like "here's a free win for you mr person behind the keyboard" and "tl;dr". This is one problem about the system I don't like : people don't leave their names and I can't ask them what I did wrong, or know if they did it out of a whim or what.
I wanted to negrep you for that but noticed I can't so I looked at your last post. Now, I am not sure if I made the tl;dr comment because of that, but it seems pretty in place from where I'm standing. You're wasting everyone's time including yours explaining in walls of text why everyone should mind their manners in an anonymous game on the internet.
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Old 2010-03-14, 05:58   Link #106
Schneizel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I wanted to negrep you for that but noticed I can't so I looked at your last post. Now, I am not sure if I made the tl;dr comment because of that, but it seems pretty in place from where I'm standing. You're wasting everyone's time including yours explaining in walls of text why everyone should mind their manners in an anonymous game on the internet.
I just positive repped this post with the message, "KODA SAYS HI". As that comment is completely un-constructive and dumb and really has nothing to do with anything and is about as intelligent as calling him a fag and negrepping him, I hope that dear old Golden Pedestal-kun will contest the positive rep that I gave him.
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Old 2010-03-14, 06:12   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
I don't think they're worthy - I just brought them up because I'm a fansubber and you read very "I'm a sig maker and I'm butthurt about your comment".
But of course, it is something I disagree with and thus I posted about it. I haven't make a sig in years, but I still identify with the sig makers around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
Keep in mind that this exchange started over reputation being constructive.
Oh yes, let us do, go back to that......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel
In fact, mods should require people to write an essays about how this post influenced you to such a degree before allowing positive rep to be given.
Good idea, but I feel you also suggest mods should go over all essays and review them, right? If that is the case then the site would probably need a dedicated group just to take care of that which could be a bit troublesome and time consuming in practice.

A small suggestion of my own would be to increase the number of people you need to give rep to before giving it to the same person again; Something like 30 people instead of 10, perhaps?

A really minor thing, but something to consider, regardless.

EDIT:

Oh, and I also agree (which I also mentioned earlier here) about neg and positive rep being different sides of a same coin. What applies to one, could certainly apply to the other.
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Old 2010-03-14, 06:18   Link #108
Schneizel
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I was joking about the essay.




(But it would be funny.)


Actually, I am no longer joking about the essay. Please make them requirements for giving out any type of rep. Then no one would want to give out rep. Problem solved. [/KholdStare]
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Old 2010-03-14, 06:46   Link #109
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Koda, please don't quit fansubbing, I will posrep you if you don't. : D
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Old 2010-03-14, 08:31   Link #110
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Peoples takes things way too seriously on the internet =_=

The rep system has done good at balancing itself over the years, take the good AND the bad side.. there is no such thing as purely white.. What you see white now, would not be so white in the long run.. aka, leave the system intact, negative and positive will cancel each other out and if you really participate the forum in a good way, the positive will always win out anyway. Wanting only the good side of the coin are just .. if you excuse me.. a coward gesture.

And if you really hate it so much, you can turn on and off at will if you so desire.. Nobody forcing you to participate in it.
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Old 2010-03-14, 09:42   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
But of course, it is something I disagree with and thus I posted about it. I haven't make a sig in years, but I still identify with the sig makers around here.
Signature making requires about 7 steps on average which given how about 90% of people out there like using renders or just magnet lasso tool the 7 steps pretty much require 7 buttons or a few in photoshop and another few copy/pasting or in some 3D abstract art generating program (somehow the terminology slips me at the moment).

Anyway, I don't think its wrong to +rep someone because they made you a signature or avatar, but the reason is really time not the work since you probably pressed more keys trying to find what you wanted and where and posting time and such or images then they did.

In special cases where the signature is some vector of the source or was something like blinking animation on a static (text moving right to left etc is not hard, so doesn't count) or drawned, I would agree with you, but I don't recall seeing anyone waste that much time over it for someone else on a request, ever.


Anyway all this is besides the point. Schneizel's initial argument was: why should negative reputation have these super requirements when positive reputation doesn't. Negative reputation doesn't even add nearly as much as positive does. The only reason we're talking more about negative and not positive or reputation in general is because as KiNA and TheFluff pointed out you all are so greedy and childish you can't live if its not all positive. You all recognised how the system is so biased towards positive reputation the only people with actual negative dots are the ones who practically asked people to get them and even self proclaimed trolls like SaintessHeart have not just positive but large positive reputation.

Also, +1 to positive reputation require 50 to 100 characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
Quote:
People generally de-rep because the post is out there to be stupid, not because it has offended anyone directly.
If most of the posts here are stupid, neg-rep would be flying all over the place. Generally from I've seen, people usually de-rep because the person in question has either broken the rules, acting like a troll, or general spam.
Add to that is just posting his own biased subjective opinion over and over regardless of what other constructive discussion and you have the definition of "stupid".

You earlier in this post just go "I think" as if that's the "proof" or "reason" to convince everyone else. Well its not, sorry but I don't recognize you or anyone as having any standing here to just come in and say "I think" ["the sky will fall on us"] and I should accept it as such because they have a bigger ego then everyone else there. That is just noise and yes de-rep in that situation is IMO a good thing since obviously one cause for such inflated egos is positive reputation over the same thing. Because bad behavior gets positive reputation too, last I heard. If you disagree then consider this, my opinion for both of you is "You are stupid" and thus following what you preach on how "we should respect other people's opinions" you must "accept you are stupid"; good luck.

Also as SaintessHeart you seem to have a warped understanding of what respect means. By "I respect your opinion" you should understand I will read it and consider it not that "I will accept it" since all of you use "respect" and "accept" as if they are interchangeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
No, it's simply called finding side effects to a proposition.
You do realise in all your posts you are simply finding side effects that would benefit you, not benefit the community since you mostly favor everything that: a) gives you more positive reputation b) minimizes negative reputation, with no regard to archiving any balance in the system. Your suggestion earlier merely favors trolls for example and works with the reasoning that everyone on the forum gets 90% of the time negative reputation (which is ridiculous).
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Old 2010-03-14, 10:02   Link #112
MeoTwister5
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Meh. Obviously both sides of the rep issue lends themselves to a lot of potential abuse and idiocy. I've actually gotten positive rep for posting like a dumbass which is funny when you think about it.

Right now it would be good if we got some posts from people who actually have sky-high rep and rock-bottom rep.
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:08   Link #113
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I wanted to negrep you for that but noticed I can't so I looked at your last post. Now, I am not sure if I made the tl;dr comment because of that, but it seems pretty in place from where I'm standing. You're wasting everyone's time including yours explaining in walls of text why everyone should mind their manners in an anonymous game on the internet.
I never required anyone to read through every single word. Just skimming over it should do in less than a minute.

But never mind those anon negreps. They aren't exactly worth my blood pressure sky rocketing, just that it isn't fair to the more sensitive posters who oversaid something and got a negrep with dumb commentary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Also as SaintessHeart you seem to have a warped understanding of what respect means. By "I respect your opinion" you should understand I will read it and consider it not that "I will accept it" since all of you use "respect" and "accept" as if they are interchangeable.

You do realise in all your posts you are simply finding side effects that would benefit you, not benefit the community since you mostly favor everything that: a) gives you more positive reputation b) minimizes negative reputation, with no regard to archiving any balance in the system. Your suggestion earlier merely favors trolls for example and works with the reasoning that everyone on the forum gets 90% of the time negative reputation (which is ridiculous).
What I intend to put across is that by "respecting" someone is to "accept" them for who they are and not exactly what they write. The point is that even if they post like a dumbass, we just ignore those posts rather than negrepping them.

My suggestion earlier doesn't work with a reason like that, but rather what I perceive to be a flaw in the system. Which is why I said the system is pretty good minus the anonymity.

I find the word trolling rather subjective because it can be used to discredit people who had trouble getting ideas across clearly (lack of language strength, or the reader's lack of knowledge), resulting in some form of gobbledygook judged as a Random Useless Comment. It is either you ignore or correct him, not a difficult choice to make.
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:10   Link #114
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Why would the side effect benefit me? I sarcastically stated a side effect of turning off anonymity, but of course everyone is so serious to get the sarcasm.

And of course everything I post here would benefit the community. I already stated that negative reputation no longer affects me, but it will hinder other members from expressing their opinions. I find it funny how eventually this turned out to be "KholdStare needs more rep," because if I really wanted to I wouldn't be posted in this thread in the first place and make some avatars/signatures. I also said in my previous post that the current reputation system is balanced. But balance is not the problem. We cannot look at this problem as whether or not positive reputation balances out negative reputation. The only problem here is negative reputation discourage discussion. That is all.

And for reference, I almost always write essays when posting positive reputation. I would say they average out to about 40-60 characters.
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:34   Link #115
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
We cannot look at this problem as whether or not positive reputation balances out negative reputation. The only problem here is negative reputation discourage discussion. That is all.
Sorry disucssion isn't always good. Sometimes discussion is just throwing flaim or nonsense around; you are generalising everything to your benefit: "oh but negrep is always bad, because discussion is always good". I would think by your post earlier you would be of the same opinion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Off-topic, ad hominem, will not further respond.
I am going to guess this was also "sarcasm" we didn't understand. Of course another explanation would be as I pointed out earlier you are just throwing excuses and finger-pointing in place of actual solid arguments.
The community doesn't benefit from having every piece of nonsense being posted. But you know that (supposedly), since you tell us that every time you praise the moderation here. I would think negative reputation acting as a sort of pruning in the process is only beneficial, to the community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
And for reference, I almost always write essays when posting positive reputation. I would say they average out to about 40-60 characters.
The reputation system has this internal limit. I was merely jocking with that statement since I know you can't write that much as I always have to trim out the messages to meet the stupid limit. So you're obviously lying here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I find the word trolling rather subjective because it can be used to discredit people who had trouble getting ideas across clearly (lack of language strength, or the reader's lack of knowledge), resulting in some form of gobbledygook judged as a Random Useless Comment. It is either you ignore or correct him, not a difficult choice to make.
Oh please. Sorry but who actually cares, if you're having trouble getting your gobbledygook across that's your problem not the communities problem. And frankly you may think of yourself as "model human being" (or psychopat or something from what you called yourself in a earlier post) or whatnot but the majority simply do not care. You either speak properly or you don't. We're not here to babysit you if that's what you're after.
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:44   Link #116
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I...praise the moderation here? And yes, the sarcasm was indeed off-topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Sorry disucssion isn't always good. Sometimes discussion is just throwing flaim or nonsense around; you are generalising everything to your benefit: "oh but negrep is always bad, because discussion is always good". I would think by your post earlier you would be of the same opinion:
If to someone a negative reputation will make them post their opinions less in the forum, then...it's bad. And of course all discussions are good. What is nonsense to you may make lots of sense to another, and trolls/flaming/etc... can be handled using the...voila, Report function.

The limit for reputation is 250 characters.

EDIT: Although I'm very glad you're no longer basing your arguments on how everything benefits me and stuck to the "discussion" side.
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:26   Link #117
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
What is nonsense to you may make lots of sense to another
Oh and this applies only to posts right, if its a reputation message its suddenly bad. How one-sided can you be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
and trolls/flaming/etc... can be handled using the...voila, Report function.
Report function is useless when people just come in to derail the thread. Example: in the Sora no Woto thread someone at some point comes in and starts writing this hate hate hate parade: "tl;dr: What Sol Falling said, only with more hate because I've always hated moeblobs and I've come to hate this show." (yes thats right they don't even bother hiding they are trolling). Is this illegal? no its not, its well within the rules. What is the purpose of that post? There is none other then to derail the thread into legitimate trolling fest. A few attempts at reason follow, but of course that's just met with examples of your "always good opinion":
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Furthermore, 'moe' in the context of 'moe shit' as most trolls use it denotes an aesthetic designed to inspire moe moreso than the feeling itself.
Were there reports? Yes most likely, and the moderators came in and deleted some of the posts who tried to reason with the idiots then also physically deleted (ie. the type where the the posts don't leave a deleted message behind) a hole damn page of posts leaving the so called troll fest to carry on for another 3-4 pages. Yes its wonderful isn't it how "the report button and moderators can only do good" and how "moderators always know everything and won't delete the wrong posts" or "moderators are perfect and honest and would never try to hide how they deleted posts".
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
The limit for reputation is 250 characters.
Hm, weird. My bad.
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:26   Link #118
Death Header
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I change my opinion on this matter. If anonymity is removed, then people would retaliate with neg reps. While this may not discourage further use of neg reps, it would lower the rep of the person throwing around neg reps, which means their rep power will eventually be significantly reduced. And pretty soon, their neg reps won't count anymore. This is a good alternative to disabling neg rep altogether, since it does the exact same thing.
That's like saying that if you insult someone, the person that was insulted would insult back. If you don't want to be negative-repped back, you shouldn't neg-rep that person in the first place. It's a sign of respect.

What are the side-effects of disabling reputation al-together anyways? A lot of forums other than this one do it, so I don't see a lot of things wrong with it.
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:47   Link #119
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Shouldn't we ask you that, you are the ones against disabling it.
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:59   Link #120
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Okay, well, I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I think we've heard ample thoughts from all sides of the issue, so would like to give this issue a break for now. The moderators and admins have received the feedback, and are considering what further steps are required, if any. We do have a few proposals/ideas on the table; we'll see what comes of it.

In the meantime, my general advice would be that people should not take negative rep personally. I know this is hard because you have to see that Red Dot every time you look at your User CP (until it gets replaced with new points), but really... shocking though this may be, all rep points are absolutely meaningless. As they used to say on Whose Line, "everything is made up and the points don't count". It means whatever the heck the person giving it wants it to mean.

I think everyone critiquing the system is trying to be well-meaning and thinks they'd be doing new users and the board on a whole a favour by advocating removing this perceived avenue of hurtful criticism. I can see the logic, but I'm not so convinced. You could also wonder if people who lash out anonymously via neg rep would find other more hurtful ways to lash out if not given that outlet. At least reputation is meaningless and can be safely ignored. It's no skin off of anyone's back unless the receiver personally makes it into an issue. People who lash out immaturely in this manner are not going to all of a sudden wise up just because they no longer have this tool. Fundamentally, it's a behavioural issue.

I should point out that positive rep is often used as a tool to encourage negative behaviour on these boards. Just as some have accused negative rep of being a "de-motivator", positive rep can be a motivator for questionable posting practices. For example, certain posters engaged in a flame war will get lots of positive rep when they put forward a strong argument for their side of the argument, thus encouraging them to drag the flame war out even longer and keep "getting support". The infamous Shuffle Holy War was a veritable rep farm for those actively engaged in it, as I suspect are the various Moe Tournament threads even today. Remember: you gain more through positive rep than negative rep takes away. Because rep points are not vetted, the staff exercises no further control over this sort of "bad use of rep" than any other. While removing negative rep points may eliminate one cause of strife and concern, it will do little to bring objectivity and fairness to the system, or to prevent the system from being used improperly to influence poster behaviour in a negative way.

But anyway, all that's neither here nor there. I believe the various sides of the issue have expressed their opinions clearly, and there is enough information on the table that it can be discussed amongst the staff. If there's a compelling reason to re-open this thread, please feel free to PM myself or any of the other moderators or staff.

As a closing thought, I would like to remind everyone of Rule 4.4:

Quote:
4.4 Please do not post about reputations

If you feel you have received an inappropriate reputation award please contact a member of staff. Please do not make posts or comments in The Forum complaining about such events. In addition, please do not request or "beg" for reputation points as this will be considered a violation of The Rules.

Please Note: If you do not like the Reputation System, the reputation awards you receive or these rules, then please do not complain about them in The Forum. Simply hide your reputation level via your User Control Panel and do not participate.
I would also mention my previous post which explains the general principles currently used by the staff in terms of what sorts of rep "complaints" we consider valid under the current system. If and when a new or modified rep system is ready for consideration, we will let everyone know.
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