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Old 2010-03-14, 17:44   Link #3821
Ricky Controversy
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I'm sorry, but the terminology debate is rather ridiculous. It's a basic principle that in contexts where people can reasonably be expected to have a mutual understanding of certain terms--as in the case of this forum--that more concise is better. If one says 'tsundere' instead of 'You sometimes act rude and direct, but I know inside you're a nice person,' that doesn't convey any less meaning. To say that the longer explanation has more depth or value is an out and out falsehood, linguistically speaking.

Now, it gets in the way if you abuse the term, as with any highly specific word, or if you use it outside of a context where you have reason to believe people will get it, but please, don't generalize about specific terminology being inferior. They aren't necessarily demeaning either. These words are from a lexicon that pertains to fiction, but there are many words in every language that are coined in fiction and come into the vernacular, and we do not consider it demeaning to use them. No one considers it crude to use the term quixotic, for example.

I can see that mostly, people are fielding this reaction because they feel like use of anime terminology necessarily means limiting, in one's mind, a person to that archetype and nothing more...but whether that's taking place or not has to be done on a case-by-case basis. I said, for instance, that Girl A is a tsundere. And she is. She is possessed of tsundere characteristics. But when was such a term defined as 'to the exclusion of any other relevant traits'? When you say someone is energetic, do you mean that's the only thing they are? Why should anime terms be seen that way?

Back on topic some, the whole situation has dissolved completely over here. Girl A's behavior immediately went down the drain after the first two, three days of improvement. At this point, I'm completely resigning from trying to be there for her. It only gets my hand bitten. If she needs me, she can tough it up and come looking for me and show me a measure of due respect, but otherwise I have given forth all the effort I can over these past years. Of course, there are a few people who have caught my eye...but there are various reasons why none of them are viable pursuits.
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Old 2010-03-14, 18:02   Link #3822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Now, it gets in the way if you abuse the term, as with any highly specific word, or if you use it outside of a context where you have reason to believe people will get it, but please, don't generalize about specific terminology being inferior. They aren't necessarily demeaning either. These words are from a lexicon that pertains to fiction, but there are many words in every language that are coined in fiction and come into the vernacular, and we do not consider it demeaning to use them. No one considers it crude to use the term quixotic, for example.
The one downside I see to describing someone as a tsundere is that for many people it conjours up images of some girl chewing you out in a shirl voice for something really minor.

Of course, if the person being described actually is like that, then as Radiant says... it's better than some other choices.
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:05   Link #3823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Back on topic some, the whole situation has dissolved completely over here. Girl A's behavior immediately went down the drain after the first two, three days of improvement. At this point, I'm completely resigning from trying to be there for her. It only gets my hand bitten. If she needs me, she can tough it up and come looking for me and show me a measure of due respect, but otherwise I have given forth all the effort I can over these past years. Of course, there are a few people who have caught my eye...but there are various reasons why none of them are viable pursuits.
Without....pertaining to the old adage "I told you so," I think one as...well...inexperienced as me can say there will be no perfect person. The ideology of that special someone is merely an illusion. For someone to be perfect, they would have to be forever constant, and stay by your side no matter what (even if that may mean you one day make the biggest mistake in your life).

I understand that person, A(nna) (I'll give her a name for my benefit), is a bit strong-headed, even for you. Personally, I couldn't give you any more advice as I have been out of the dating thing for close to 5 weeks. Maybe someone over here is able to lend a helping hand?
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:18   Link #3824
Samari
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Tsundere?

Please people, this isn't anime. This is reality. Put down the manga.
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Last edited by NightWish; 2010-04-08 at 17:03. Reason: Image unnecessary
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:25   Link #3825
Seitsuki
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And since when is art wholly separate from reality?
..that pic..
IT'S A TRAP! (sorry couldn't resist)
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:27   Link #3826
Samari
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
And since when is art wholly separate from reality?
..that pic..
IT'S A TRAP! (sorry couldn't resist)
This has nothing to do with art and it's relation to reality.

Unless you consider adopting terms from anime, manga, and Bishojo games an art form.

I'm not sure where you're from, but around here in the common setting you use that term in a social context you're probably going to have to explain what it means every single time. People that are pretty much into anime, manga, whatever are probably gonna be the only ones familiar with that terminology. Probably won't come across that many in the United States. Just saying.
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:30   Link #3827
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These are still mainly anime forums, and most of the users are in their teen years, so using such terms makes it a lot easier for them to describe various personalities, however superficial.
Quote:
When you say someone is energetic, do you mean that's the only thing they are? Why should anime terms be seen that way?
I'll have to agree here, it's not like you got a 1 word limit per description, people are always many things.
Quote:
Maybe someone over here is able to lend a helping hand?
Twisting my Freudian moustache, I'll deduce that she is needy and doesn't like it, even if others might be ok with it, so she gets frustrated over her own seeming weakness and takes it all out on others. Very afraid that others might find out about it, stress levels tend to be high and she's rough on the easy-going types as they don't help her steam. Best way of approach: confusion, hide your intentions and convey your "type" to be the one she wants-confident, respecting her instead of pitying her for her neediness.
Maybe I'm totally off on this one, after all I've never met either, but hey, women are complex creatures~

@ Samari: characters may be the work of fiction, but their relationships all stem from reality. Even the most impossible anime character can be found in the real world, however rare that is.
Minor note: I got too many courses today, won't be online for another 11 hours or so, don't expect me to answer soon.
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:35   Link #3828
Samari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
These are still mainly anime forums, and most of the users are in their teen years, so using such terms makes it a lot easier for them to describe various personalities, however superficial.
Word. I know a lot of people here are still in their teens and relate a lot to anime lingo and the like. I remember the same kind of people in high school. Just a phase.
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:56   Link #3829
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*facepalms* the mods are gonna like how far this thread has strayed from the ball of yarn....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
These are still mainly anime forums, and most of the users are in their teen years, so using such terms makes it a lot easier for them to describe various personalities, however superficial.
True, but most people don't respond well to jargon anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I'll have to agree here, it's not like you got a 1 word limit per description, people are always many things.
True too, and however that may seem, even if someone put a gun to my head and only gave me a chance to describe a really pretty girl in just one word, I wouldn't. She'd be so much more than just pretty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Maybe I'm totally off on this one, after all I've never met either, but hey, women are complex creatures~
....Why.....I think I've pointed out a zillion times that I will never think of a girl as a separate species. Ah well....
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Old 2010-03-15, 02:57   Link #3830
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I kind of pity those people who claim to be realistic and proceed to slam others who use anime terms as out of touch, etc, then branding them as hikkikomoris. It is ironic that they do not realise that there are people who are like that existing in "reality".

As much as there is nothing wrong with people marrying their bolsters and figurines, there isn't anything wrong with going along with someone of the same sex, a geek, a nerd, an antisocial, etc. Whoever started with this kind of lousy stereotypical judgement as "unnatural people" certainly has a brain full of maggots.

People choose to be what they are and do what they want, and love whoever they are interested in, so who are you exactly to judge them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Twisting my Freudian moustache, I'll deduce that she is needy and doesn't like it, even if others might be ok with it, so she gets frustrated over her own seeming weakness and takes it all out on others. Very afraid that others might find out about it, stress levels tend to be high and she's rough on the easy-going types as they don't help her steam. Best way of approach: confusion, hide your intentions and convey your "type" to be the one she wants-confident, respecting her instead of pitying her for her neediness.
Maybe I'm totally off on this one, after all I've never met either, but hey, women are complex creatures~
It looks like you are asking him to play up on her. But if it makes the girl happy, why not?

But I do agree that women are complex creatures, there was once I totally gave up on understanding them.
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Old 2010-03-15, 03:23   Link #3831
Samari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I kind of pity those people who claim to be realistic and proceed to slam others who use anime terms as out of touch, etc, then branding them as hikkikomoris. It is ironic that they do not realise that there are people who are like that existing in "reality".

As much as there is nothing wrong with people marrying their bolsters and figurines, there isn't anything wrong with going along with someone of the same sex, a geek, a nerd, an antisocial, etc. Whoever started with this kind of lousy stereotypical judgement as "unnatural people" certainly has a brain full of maggots.
People are free to do whatever they want. I never said that they couldn't. Doesn't mean I can't express my opinion that it may be unusual to me. If people really care what a total stranger has to say and take it to heart over something very trivial (it's not like I'm criticizing religion, sex, or race), then that is worse than what I was doing, which was actually just expressing an opinion. If people's feelings are hurt by the context of how my message was mentioned over the internet, then oh well put me on ignore if it bothers you that much.
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Old 2010-03-15, 04:51   Link #3832
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
As much as there is nothing wrong with people marrying their bolsters and figurines, there isn't anything wrong with going along with someone of the same sex, a geek, a nerd, an antisocial, etc. Whoever started with this kind of lousy stereotypical judgement as "unnatural people" certainly has a brain full of maggots.
I hate the idea of looking down on people for their geekiness. Flip side, I think that it's always good to judge yourself every so often. I don't think people should be anti-normal just to be, well, anti-normal.
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Old 2010-03-15, 04:59   Link #3833
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harufox View Post
*facepalms* the mods are gonna like how far this thread has strayed from the ball of yarn....
I sincerely apologise for not keeping my Azunyan, Nagato and Honoka in check. I will put them on the short leash right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I hate the idea of looking down on people for their geekiness. Flip side, I think that it's always good to judge yourself every so often. I don't think people should be anti-normal just to be, well, anti-normal.
Some girls and guys do that to attract attention to themselves because they felt ignored. It is much like doing business or playing politics : a group calling themselves the Tea Party must dole out or sell unique biscuits and sandwiches to generate interest among the public. And just like doing business, there is always something called "market research", know what the other party likes before even drafting a plan to attract them. Acting in random makes one look more idiotic than attractive.
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Old 2010-03-15, 05:22   Link #3834
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Is just my two pence to you. As it is, I cannot follow those anime terms, so I'll remain on my lurking seat and skip over some posts.
Should someone want some advice for a real life situation, I'll poke my head back in again.
Far as I can tell, you've only been confused by two terms in this thread: BGR (Which, as it turns out, isn't Japanese at all), and tsundere, the only Japanese term that's really been used here, which you figured out yourself almost right away from the context. I think you might be overreacting just a little bit here, ma'am.
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Old 2010-03-15, 07:18   Link #3835
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Quote:
....Why.....I think I've pointed out a zillion times that I will never think of a girl as a separate species. Ah well....
Humans are complex in general, but I've only read books about women (maybe nobody's interested in exploring a man's train of thought, who knows).
Quote:
the mods are gonna like how far this thread has strayed from the ball of yarn....
Communication is crucial in dates, and I'm not talking about understanding emotions (hints, body language, etc.) but if your partner thinks you're going blah blah blah and she's tired, and for some reason you're so absorbed in your monologue that you don't notice, chances are high that this will be your last date:P
Quote:
It looks like you are asking him to play up on her. But if it makes the girl happy, why not?
Well, not exactly, I mean it's not the casual case of catching her off-guard, but forbidding negative emotions that stem from her mentality. But yeah, as long as they're happy~
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Old 2010-03-15, 07:37   Link #3836
Mystique
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Far as I can tell, you've only been confused by two terms in this thread: BGR (Which, as it turns out, isn't Japanese at all), and tsundere, the only Japanese term that's really been used here, which you figured out yourself almost right away from the context. I think you might be overreacting just a little bit here, ma'am.
Not really, it's been mentioned before as to why it can be off putting, especially to relate a general dating thread to categorised labels deriving from anime, or more specially:
Quote:
Tsundere (ツンデレ?) (Japanese pronunciation: [tsɯndeɽe]) is a Japanese character development process which describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time. The word is derived from the terms Tsun Tsun (ツンツン?) , meaning to turn away in disgust, and Dere Dere (デレデレ?) meaning to become 'lovey dovey'.[1] Originally found in Japanese bishōjo games, the word is now part of the otaku moe phenomenon,[2] reaching into other media such as maid cafes,[2] anime, manga, novels, and even mass media.[citation needed] The term was made popular in the game Kimi ga Nozomu Eien.
It's an entire new vocab set to adapt to based of a minor sector of the anime genres.
For a thread which applies to all of us, in our teens, in our 20's, 30's and older, from all over the world as well as into different kinds of anime/manga (not all of which fall into the moe, cute, shojo genre)
Just to use terms which are generally universal makes for easier reading and relation to each person's post, kinda like why we shouldn't all break out into other typical Japanese anime words like 'she's so kawaii' 'that's so sugoi', 'yare yare' or 'taku mou'
Or why このフォラムにromajiとか日本語で書くのは大体駄目です。
(And so on...)

I've heard this term (and the words in this character definition shojo set) floating about cyberspace for well over half a year. I realise it's a "useful" term to use since it encompasses a certain character set (to those who get this or know the character references well from the shoujo anime that they watch) into one word, but we're on about offline dating here with real people, situations and characters outside of constructed scenarios from someone's imagination to depict a story (in other words an anime series).

If these terms were being used for any of the anime threads in the anime forum, I'd keep my mouth shut, it's related to the series, it's fine. Shoujo as a genre has certain character development styles which play off these terms created for them.
But for a general chat forum where most of the topics are global, general topics outside of anime, relating to offline situations and real people living their everyday lives, it'll help if communication was kept as universal as possible.

That's where I'm coming from in relation to the term usuage. The rest of my post was for Saintess, I was curious about his constant 2D reference of women to real women offline whenever he writes in here and wondered where his stance was with females that weren't hand drawn and animated.

Should you wanna debate/hash over it some more, I'll hit up your profile wall for a reply just to keep this thread on track in some kinda of dating related form.
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Old 2010-03-15, 08:08   Link #3837
Shiemi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

As much as there is nothing wrong with people marrying their bolsters and figurines, there isn't anything wrong with going along with someone of the same sex, a geek, a nerd, an antisocial, etc. Whoever started with this kind of lousy stereotypical judgement as "unnatural people" certainly has a brain full of maggots.

People choose to be what they are and do what they want, and love whoever they are interested in, so who are you exactly to judge them?
Perhaps to you, there is nothing wrong with people marrying figurines and other non-living objects, but if we part from the premise that every conduct portrayed by a person should be accepted, we wouldn't need mental institutions or the police.

If a client comes to my office to tell me about problems in his or her relationship and all of a sudden the person reveals during the interview that his/her date/wife/husband/bf/gf/whatever is an inflatable doll and that he/she is angry at the doll because it keeps deflating whenever he/she is trying to be intimate with it, I would either think the person is pulling a joke on me or that he/she is in the wrong office and needs a psychiatrist.

On another note, sometimes we do have to judge when people choose to be what they are and do what they want. If the person chose to be a criminal and murder people, eventually that person might end up being judged and then in jail. Though perhaps you were only meaning who to love, but generalizations can lead to confusion.

I do hope people in this thread are trying to seek advice for dating real/living people.
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Old 2010-03-15, 09:36   Link #3838
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
That's where I'm coming from in relation to the term usuage. The rest of my post was for Saintess, I was curious about his constant 2D reference of women to real women offline whenever he writes in here and wondered where his stance was with females that weren't hand drawn and animated.
Wouldn't it be easier to quell your wonders if you find yourself an attachment to a middle/high school in East Asia and stay for a year in the bottom mainstream class, rather than degrading all my experiences as surreal by pressing buttons on the keyboard?

Considering the fact that the kids here spend more of their time polishing their academics than social/thinking skills in school, they act differently from where you are. I met foreign students who came here to study and they are a whole lot more different. They don't have solid state characters like most of the students here, living a life for the sake of living it, studying for the sake of getting straight As and into a university, getting a degree then a high paying career.

The biggest difference of those foreign students is in their ability to dare and dream of the most idealistic situations. It really beats me why my peers don't bother about the availability of Google and the freedom of thought, and even have to wait for the government to come up with a "productivity" incentive.

Spoiler for off topic:
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Old 2010-03-15, 12:10   Link #3839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiemi View Post
Perhaps to you, there is nothing wrong with people marrying figurines and other non-living objects, but if we part from the premise that every conduct portrayed by a person should be accepted, we wouldn't need mental institutions or the police.

If a client comes to my office to tell me about problems in his or her relationship and all of a sudden the person reveals during the interview that his/her date/wife/husband/bf/gf/whatever is an inflatable doll and that he/she is angry at the doll because it keeps deflating whenever he/she is trying to be intimate with it, I would either think the person is pulling a joke on me or that he/she is in the wrong office and needs a psychiatrist.
In some respects, I don't see anything wrong with someone wanting to marry an inanimate object. But that does speak of psychological problems, because they are placing far too much important on it. Pillows and inflatable dolls are perfectly okay, but only when used properly for their intended purpose.

It's actually becoming a bit of an epidemic in Japan where women are going into their 30s, still not married, because guys are getting more into their anime collection since 2D girls are easier to get along with than real women. This avoidance of real people, harms their social development, just like any other "escape from reality" avenue would. You have to get out there and interact with real women, and learn to compromise on issues.

Note that I feel Japanese women are partly to blame, too, for shunning a guy who is into anime or other odd hobbies. They have to learn to accept someone for who they are, too, and not because of how they'll look towards others. Real love is about loving someone's quirks and faults, as well as their good points.

Ultimately, you have a nation where there are very few actual couples, and people break up over minor things, because they can always go back to a 2D girl, instead of actually working out their problems and learning to live together. Real relationships take work, and are far more complex, then a Takahashi couple.

Quote:
On another note, sometimes we do have to judge when people choose to be what they are and do what they want. If the person chose to be a criminal and murder people, eventually that person might end up being judged and then in jail. Though perhaps you were only meaning who to love, but generalizations can lead to confusion.

I do hope people in this thread are trying to seek advice for dating real/living people.
I have to agree with this, and Mystique. This thread is for real life dating discussion and advice, with real people. Tsundere is an anime term, and while quite a few of us are familiar with it, due to being anime fans... it just doesn't work in real life, because real people are infinitely more complex. Going by anime, you'd easily think half the women in Japan are some degree of tsundere, which isn't the case.

We have to keep anime and real life separate, because letting it bleed over, even a little, is just asking for trouble.
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Old 2010-03-15, 17:02   Link #3840
Shiemi
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Bishounens in real life tend to be players and fickle. One-night every night, basically. Though individuals do come by with extraodinary looks that aren't lust incarnate.
Interesting that you bring bishounens into the equation. I have a sad anecdote regarding a bishounen. When I lived in Japan, I befriended a girl named Yoshie. Her husband was extremely beautiful. They had a beautiful baby girl, but when the baby was two months old, Yoshie killed herself. Her husband came back home to find their daughter crying on the floor and his wife dead.

When I inquired about why Yoshie had done such a thing, what people told me was that jealousy led her to that. She knew her husband was too pretty and was always thinking that he was with another girl. She was like that until she couldn't take it anymore.

In my case, I feel that I would never be able to date someone whom I would consider too beautiful. I'm curious about what other people think. If you date guys, would you date a bishounen? If you date girls, would you date extremely beautiful girls?
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