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Old 2010-03-14, 03:07   Link #6681
WhiteWings
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I can't exactly celebrate Fidel Castro but considering how other South American countries ended up doing it could have been worse.

I'm sure many people who suffered under Castro would be pissed at me and they're right as well.

Lelouch took the easy route by doing what he did. He could have chosen a route similar Suzaku's original route. Take is slowly, steadily, carefully, but surely. I may or may not have worked but many people would have suffered while things were slowly getting better.

So is going through incredible levels of sacrifice, death, and destruction for a few months or years to achieve a better future better than going through some sacrifice, death, and destruction spread out over decades or more that would when added up be far more costly as whole compared to the other short way?

Dunno.

It's kinda like how democracy is. Instead of going straight to its goals democracy spends more of its time going left and right constantly while barely going forward. Fair, democratic, and right but extremely time consuming and wasteful.

Oh well, we can't have everything.
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Old 2010-03-14, 03:44   Link #6682
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Except that Britannia was a Darwinistic dominion where a person in Suzaku's shoes would be highly ineffectual due to being amongst the discriminated.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:11   Link #6683
darkdarkdark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
So is going through incredible levels of sacrifice, death, and destruction for a few months or years to achieve a better future better than going through some sacrifice, death, and destruction spread out over decades or more that would when added up be far more costly as whole compared to the other short way?
This is what ZR was, and what Lelouch envisioned.

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Except that Britannia was a Darwinistic dominion where a person in Suzaku's shoes would be highly ineffectual due to being amongst the discriminated.
Yep, I doubt Suzaku's plan to "change it from the inside" would of worked. It wasn't like he had Geass or anything special really about him.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:29   Link #6684
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
So is going through incredible levels of sacrifice, death, and destruction for a few months or years to achieve a better future better than going through some sacrifice, death, and destruction spread out over decades or more that would when added up be far more costly as whole compared to the other short way.
the problem wasn't that he chose this path
its that he chose this path instead of opting for the 3rd option

signing a peace treaty with the UFN, thus ending the war right then and there
deal with shnizel and the damocles WITHOUT having to fight it AND the OOBK at the same time
and then spending the rest of his life improving the world in various ways (great way to atone)
it would be less flashy
but it wouldn't require the loss of anywhere near the amount of lives that zero-requiem did
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:45   Link #6685
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That, and it wouldn't fulfill Lelouch's death wish.
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Old 2010-03-14, 15:40   Link #6686
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He didn't have a death wish. The guidebook pointed out that death was a punishment for him.
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Old 2010-03-14, 16:33   Link #6687
HollowScar
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Exactly. In Ernesto's case, he had to create a revolution, to go against the government. Part of revolution is bloodshed, and he was very serious when it came to order. In Lelouch's case, Lelouch was a bit watered down, as he did not kill the Black Knights for disobeying him. Even though he could have killed Shirley, he waited, and her naive personality, and good hearted soul won him over. Unfortunately, she was sacrificed in another way. He was also planning to kill Rolo, after using him, but Rolo died as a sacrifice. He could have been much worse, had these good hearted, loyal, characters not intervened.

Regarding signing a peace treaty, the world is too naive. Peace treaties have been signed before, and have failed. If Lelouch signed a peace treaty, and moved on, he would have eventually died anyways. After his death, someone else may change the system and cause more problems. This may happen twenty years from Lelouch's death, or hundred years later. By choosing to be killed, he made it clear, that no matter how powerful a person of authority is, that person will be dealt with if he/she causes more havoc. He basically set a standard, so that the future emperors will know what happened to Lelouch vi Britannia. They will know what Zero symbolizes, and they will fear him. Just like Ernesto is a symbol, so is Zero. These symbols will keep on inspiring people, and show that it is possible to have justice.

When it comes to death, every war has its casualties. In history, if changes were to be made, there had to be bloodshed. Had Lelouch come back, and beg his father verbally to make changes, his father would have laughed it off. The price may have been tons of death, but the reward was equality, and justice for many years to come. The epilogue makes it very clear.
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Last edited by HollowScar; 2010-03-14 at 16:44.
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Old 2010-03-14, 17:15   Link #6688
darkdarkdark
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Agreed. If Lelouch didn't take the path of ZR, he would've been a dictator like Charles. He forcefully took control of the empire, and used his Geass to create a slave army. Signing treaties wouldn't do anything for him if the people hate him.
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Old 2010-03-14, 21:59   Link #6689
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The point was the world didn't need an absolute ruler, or on-going conflict. As it'd make people like the 99th emperor.

Zero symbolized reach and power. Along with charisma and doing what was 'right'. Killing the evil demon emperor was considered justice. Most people would have to re-think whether or not they wanted to deal with Zero. The emperor was heavily guarded, afterall... Lol...

"Those that have lived, must bear the weight of those that have died" motif. Lelouch died, leaving the 'weight' of the future to everyone else. He died giving that weight meeting, nurturing it and making it symbological. Of course, thats my opinion. Feel free to denounce it as delusion.
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Old 2010-03-14, 22:01   Link #6690
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He didn't necessarily have to become a dictator, he could give the perliament more power and take a position much like Elizabeth II, and Juan Carlos I. You know, remain the head of state with some power, instead of being an absolute ruler. Let the people elect their prime minister and parliament members instead of just appointing Nunnaly and his relatives to positions of power...

Give up some rights such as being able to declare war whenever he feels like, or take rights away from his subjects, etc.
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Old 2010-03-14, 22:09   Link #6691
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
The point was the world didn't need an absolute ruler, or on-going conflict. As it'd make people like the 99th emperor.

Zero symbolized reach and power. Along with charisma and doing what was 'right'. Killing the evil demon emperor was considered justice. Most people would have to re-think whether or not they wanted to deal with Zero. The emperor was heavily guarded, afterall... Lol...

"Those that have lived, must bear the weight of those that have died" motif. Lelouch died, leaving the 'weight' of the future to everyone else. He died giving that weight meeting, nurturing it and making it symbological. Of course, thats my opinion. Feel free to denounce it as delusion.
You know the ease with which Zero was able to assassinate the emperor should have raised some questions. The streets were lined up with soldiers, and he had knightmares guarding his mobile throne. The soldiers should have surrounded the emperor while their buddies shot Zero dead. That was some shoddy bodyguarding, people can't be dumb enough to think that wasn't staged...
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Old 2010-03-15, 01:05   Link #6692
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Yes, Lelouch could have been an emperor, much like Elisabeth II, but if he changed laws, and was peaceful enough, then after his death, someone else could take over, and change the laws again. There was no constitution, so from one emperor to another, changes could be made. Had Lelouch died, there were still a risk of someone else taking over, and messing with his laws. When Zero Requiem happened, it basically showed what Zero was capable of, and gave an incident which future emperors will remember. They will fear Zero, as religious people fear God's wrath.
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Old 2010-03-15, 01:10   Link #6693
azul120
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He didn't have a death wish. The guidebook pointed out that death was a punishment for him.
In a manner of speaking. It's the punishment he chose. He also said that there were other ways of achieving world peace that wouldn't involve his death, but he insisted on ZR. That he would want to die is consistent with his prior scheme, when he attempted to forever trap himself with Charles inside the Sword of Akasha, one episode after the Black Knights betrayed him. When he enacted the Zero Requiem, he felt he had nothing more to live for.
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Old 2010-03-15, 01:48   Link #6694
yvj
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In a manner of speaking. It's the punishment he chose. He also said that there were other ways of achieving world peace that wouldn't involve his death, but he insisted on ZR. That he would want to die is consistent with his prior scheme, when he attempted to forever trap himself with Charles inside the Sword of Akasha, one episode after the Black Knights betrayed him. When he enacted the Zero Requiem, he felt he had nothing more to live for.
Oh, trust in my, self-righteous suicide
I cry when angels deserve to die
In my self-righteous suicide
I cry when angels deserve to die


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Old 2010-03-15, 02:52   Link #6695
azul120
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Well played, yvj. Not to mention the angels part could be an allusion to Euphie and Shirley.
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Old 2010-03-15, 03:58   Link #6696
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by HollowScar View Post
Yes, Lelouch could have been an emperor, much like Elisabeth II, but if he changed laws, and was peaceful enough, then after his death, someone else could take over, and change the laws again. There was no constitution, so from one emperor to another, changes could be made. Had Lelouch died, there were still a risk of someone else taking over, and messing with his laws. When Zero Requiem happened, it basically showed what Zero was capable of, and gave an incident which future emperors will remember. They will fear Zero, as religious people fear God's wrath.
zero is as temporary as Lelouch would have been as emperor had he chosen a more peaceful path
he's also nowhere near as capable, since he doesn't have Lelouch's political skill
and the possibility of future emperors trying to do what Lelouch did is still very possible
stop pretending like zero is suppose to be a "deterrent"

after all, what is an aspiring dictator more likely to do
give up on his plans of world domination out of fear of one (very mortal) man
or just get better guards who know how to do their jobs
hell, if a future leader does want to take over the world, you can bet your ass that the FIRST thing he does before revealing his intentions would be to kill zero
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Old 2010-03-15, 12:51   Link #6697
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zero is as temporary as Lelouch would have been as emperor had he chosen a more peaceful path
he's also nowhere near as capable, since he doesn't have Lelouch's political skill
and the possibility of future emperors trying to do what Lelouch did is still very possible
stop pretending like zero is suppose to be a "deterrent"

after all, what is an aspiring dictator more likely to do
give up on his plans of world domination out of fear of one (very mortal) man
or just get better guards who know how to do their jobs
hell, if a future leader does want to take over the world, you can bet your ass that the FIRST thing he does before revealing his intentions would be to kill zero
exactly
a dictator doesn't even have to go after Zero though, remember it's just a mask and anyone can take his place. All they have to do is just get a decent security detail that doesn't stand still while their leader gets assassinated. Oh and if they must parade through the streets, do it with a pope-mobile type of vehicle, not some open air car.
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Old 2010-03-15, 13:47   Link #6698
Arbitres
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Those that brave open air without high-spec, high-level security tend to have a halved life expectancy.

As far as I was concerned, the platform was pretty pope mobile. Just without the bubble. Though he did have the hat... :P

Suzero isn't deterrent, but he is there. Real, seasoned and ambitious dictactors/aspiring dictactors won't/wouldn't be very scared. Besides, dictactorship takes common sense and intelligence.

A large number of the Britannia nobility lacked the two most common things for success. Depending on privilege and prestige. Which is why Lelouch hates them. Just "Over-privileged parasites" as the dub goes.

Had he remained a prince, I believe he would've done a coup d'etat. Whether or not he would succeed depended all on his ruthless and calculation. Were he committed, he'd be able to kill a good portion of the royal family before any realization dawned on anyone's mind that he MAY be the one behind the large scale assassination.

That would've been interesting.. But alas, no. Still, it was good all around.

Touching back on that open air... Assassins would be quite popular during the time of the Emperor's reign. Not just Vile-etta and the turncoats wanted Lelouch dead. that was for certain.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:00   Link #6699
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Had he remained a prince, I believe he would've done a coup d'etat. Whether or not he would succeed depended all on his ruthless and calculation. Were he committed, he'd be able to kill a good portion of the royal family before any realization dawned on anyone's mind that he MAY be the one behind the large scale assassination.
Mh, I'm not sure how well that would have worked out.

If it was that easy, half of the royal family would probably already be dead. Lelouch might have been a genius, but with his mother's death, her supporters lost practically all their power. Lelouch would have needed to gain influence purely on his own, and even if he'd been the perfect social butterfly, that would have taken a lot of effort.

Not to mention that to take over, he would have had to kill, hum, almost everyone, actually. Even if Charles hadn't seen through him or decided to just let him be, Schneizel was much closer to the throne, and he's not a man easily fooled except if Lelouch dresses up as Emperor and records videos so fascinating even Schneizel can't help but be taken with them, that is... uh, wait, that didn't come out right.
Also, killing, let's say, Cornelia would have made Euphie extremely unhappy, and if Lelouch had remained in Britannia, I think that'd have bothered him quite a bit. If nothing else, an unhappy Euphie would have meant an unhappy Nunnally, and, yeah, never underestimate the little sister factor.

So in the end, I believe Lelouch would have gone for something zero-like regardless. Making Charles suffer is also a lot easier if you don't have to worry about keeping up appearances in court, and there's less risk of a civil war.
Besides, Clovis would have randomly hugged Lelouch to death sooner or later, so he'd have been in a hurry to get the Hell out of Britannia.

Oh, and I think it'd be important whether Lelouch had been sent to Japan and then returned to Britannia or remained in Britannia from the beginning.
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Old 2010-03-15, 15:05   Link #6700
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Well played, yvj. Not to mention the angels part could be an allusion to Euphie and Shirley.
Why do Euphie and Shirley deserve to die?

(Nah, just kiddin'. I know you have to take the line a little more loosely)
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