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Old 2010-03-17, 13:56   Link #6581
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If globalisation never came about then my country would still be a fishing village.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think the country I live in, USA, would probably be much better had globalization never occurred.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:33   Link #6582
mg1942
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think the country I live in, USA, would probably be much better had globalization never occurred.
look, your region will never be what it once was

Blue collar workers in that rusting region priced themselves out of the market and churned out craptastic cars & electronics compared to what the japs and germans were exporting.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:37   Link #6583
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
When I talk about HSR (and I assume that applies for that particular project too) I mean this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fe...FB%C3%B6gl.jpg

Which is a little more expensive and needed, because in contrast to middle european climate, the tracks in central asia have to compensate temperature differences of over 100C (-40C winter to 80+C summer). At 60C there is a force of 1500 kN (reference temperature would be 20C). Since HSR relies very much on highly accurate track, it must be build like in the picture (basically full concrete with rails) - especially when the temperature differences are expected to be very high (typical for continental desserts/steppes).
And where is the major problem in having to use those? Remember that in building a railway network the rails themselves are merely the topping. Even multiplying their cost several times would still involve a marginal rise in the total price, compared to the colossal cost of boring tunnels, building bridges, high rises and even the foundation of a steppe levee. And they can very well be manufactured in large series thousand of kilometer away.

Quote:
You are underestimating these regions in terms of strain on HSR installments (the sand/dust alone can become a serious problem - which would require a banking on each side of the track to provide some protection against drifting sand).
Turkey and Iran are already building HSR in the 200-300 km/h range, yet they have to face harsh mountain, plateau and desert environment (wouldn't day/night desert temperature differences be a more significant source of wear than seasonal differences?), so I suppose those difficulties are well understood, and anyway would be less of and issue on high traffic lines, as they imply regular maintenance (in this regard, please consider HSR in Southern Europe also, which can be plenty dusty with considerable day/night temperature contrast in summer).
Quote:
If I am not mistaken none of these countries except China build such tracks yet?
Iran is expanding, modernizing, doubling and electrifying it's network.

Europe-India connection is being implemented, although more slowly than the rest, but notice the article conclusion, in year 2008:

Quote:
Meanwhile, as we reported last month, Iran is investing heavily in upgrading and expanding its rail network, and Turkey’s railways are developing rapidly.
Speaking of Turkey, they have completed the Bosphorus Tunnel, with commercial service is expected in 1 or 2 years, also they already have HSR lines, and are expanding and modernizing their network.

So that's two keys countries on the way, which are already clearing major geographical obstacles.
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Old 2010-03-17, 14:52   Link #6584
Jinto
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Okay lets stop this.

Because we see things different here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
And where is the major problem in having to use those?
and here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Turkey and Iran are already building HSR in the 200-300 km/h range,
The track looks more like 160-200 km/h with an option for some parts of the track where the trains can go up to max. 250 km/h on straights, depending on weather and climate conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
So that's two keys countries on the way, which are already clearing major geographical obstacles.
Well, I'ld wait a few years and look at the average speeds. I'ld not be surprised if the average speed is like 170km/h by then.
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Old 2010-03-17, 18:19   Link #6585
Joojoobees
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Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
look, your region will never be what it once was. Blue collar workers in that rusting region priced themselves out of the market and churned out craptastic cars & electronics compared to what the japs and germans were exporting.
I thought Chain was from Massachusetts. That was the site of the mini-computer revolution (so its glory faded with the introduction of the PC). Well, and originally whaling, but that was a while back.
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Old 2010-03-17, 20:10   Link #6586
ChainLegacy
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I'm thinking more along the lines of before Europeans arrived here, but yeah. Guess it depends on how one defines the start of globalization, I was somewhat operating under the assumption it began during the era of exploration and colonization.
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Old 2010-03-17, 22:55   Link #6587
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think the country I live in, USA, would probably be much better had globalization never occurred.
Are you like Ron Paul or something? I'm sorry, but this way of thinking is downright outrageous.

How do you think the US got to be the superpower it is today? We sold Europe and and the rest of world over these last two centuries, a plethora of goods, and particularly during the World Wars, tons of weapons.
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Old 2010-03-17, 23:14   Link #6588
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I'm bad at history, but did we have to join the WTO to sell Europe and others those stuffs.
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Old 2010-03-18, 01:04   Link #6589
LynnieS
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Are you like Ron Paul or something? I'm sorry, but this way of thinking is downright outrageous.

How do you think the US got to be the superpower it is today? We sold Europe and and the rest of world over these last two centuries, a plethora of goods, and particularly during the World Wars, tons of weapons.
Hmm, I don't have my books and resources at the moment, but I think your timeline is not 100% right.

The U.S., when it was still young, was more of a raw materials provider than a goods seller. It was still known as a backwater than an industrial power like, say, England. I seem to remember that it was a capital crime in England to export tech (related to steel making only?) outside of the country?

Pre-WWI, I would agree in that the U.S. began to industrialize, but that is more due to the needs of (1) Reconstruction, (2) immigration and (3) expansion, esp. to the West. Opportunities appeared, and people (Europeans with the know-how, brains and money and Americans with the smarts) took advantage.

After WWII is more of when the U.S. began to become more of a goods supplier and a "global powerhouse", IMHO.

In any case, I would not be surprised if at some time in the future, jobs removed in the U.S. due to outsourcing will return. In the mid/late 90's, I saw jobs going to places like Ireland. In the early 2000's, it was to places like Nova Scotia and India, which continued to the mid 00's while the jobs in Ireland went virtually stagnant at the same levels. Now, it's to China. The costs in China aren't as low as they were back then - although compared to parts of the U.S.'s, they are still cheaper and will likely stay that way for awhile. All personal observations, of course, but everything changes due to (1) countries' policies, (2) people's views and (3) companies' bottom lines.

Somali pirates attempt to attack Dutch warship
Quote:
Troops aboard the Dutch warship HNLMS Tromp fired warning shots Wednesday off the coast of East Africa as suspected Somali pirates in two small skiffs raced toward their warship, the EU Naval Force said.
(1) Isn't this the 2nd time pirates tried to take a Dutch warship? (2) Did they really let the pirates (or wannabes) go? Weapons are cheap and very easy to get, so these guys are likely rearmed and searching within a couple of days or so, IMHO. At least confiscate their "mothership" for investigation for a few months...
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Old 2010-03-18, 01:05   Link #6590
Joojoobees
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
I'm bad at history, but did we have to join the WTO to sell Europe and others those stuffs.
No, much of Europe's productive capacity was destroyed during WWII. As a result America was able to supply a lot during the reconstruction in the mid-20th century. In the later 20th century the GATT came into effect, which was the precursor to the WTO. The WTO itself wasn't created until the 1990s.
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Old 2010-03-18, 04:09   Link #6591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Okay lets stop this.
Yes, I'll just conclude on it.

Quote:
Because we see things different here:
Clearly, for you implementing high technology tracks on thousands of kilometer is unfeasible, yet the Chinese did build about 1000 km of the Qingzang railway, which if you look into it, was built on some of the harshest environment, and required hundreds of bridges and permafrost compatible high rise and levees.

Also, your perception is distorted by the apparent extreme length of the line, but a comparison with many countries network expansion plans put it into perspective: China is building 42000 km of passenger rail lines, 13000 km of it being HSR, and even a relatively country like Spain is expanding it's HSR from 7000 to 10000 km.

Moreso, it doesn't fall all on China, the most difficult parts, like mountains and undersea tunnels, are handled by Turkey and Iran, other regional powers which are building their own HSR arteries. What China commits itself to, apart from expanding it's own HSR lines, is to prolong it trough the flat, virtually devoid of any geographical obstacle steppes of Kazakhstan; as well as promote interoperability and overall high performance (gauge and electrification parts are already being done).
Quote:
The track looks more like 160-200 km/h with an option for some parts of the track where the trains can go up to max. 250 km/h on straights, depending on weather and climate conditions.
Both countries are implementing rising speed trough several technological steps: electrification, tracks modification and tilting trains. The last capable of 250 km/h indeed, which is HSR for mountains.

Quote:
Well, I'ld wait a few years and look at the average speeds. I'ld not be surprised if the average speed is like 170km/h by then.
And I won't be surprised if it way more: sure speeds will be limited to these 200-250 km/h range in Iran and Turkey, but that's less than one fourth of the line, given Chinese commitment, speed much higher will be achieved on the way longer flat steppes distances in China and Kazakhstan. If we consider the work underway, it's on the European end that "low" speeds will be unavoidable.


Now on another subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post

Somali pirates attempt to attack Dutch warship
(1) Isn't this the 2nd time pirates tried to take a Dutch warship? (2) Did they really let the pirates (or wannabes) go? Weapons are cheap and very easy to get, so these guys are likely rearmed and searching within a couple of days or so, IMHO. At least confiscate their "mothership" for investigation for a few months...
Well, the problem seems a long way to subside, if they are treating pirates so kindly...
It's never gonna end without using the time-tested traditional anti-piracy policies; the downturn of piracy in the Malacca being due to the effectiveness of patrols, which I'm pretty sure are not too much concerned about the pirates well being .
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Old 2010-03-18, 10:48   Link #6592
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Joojoobees View Post
No, much of Europe's productive capacity was destroyed during WWII. As a result America was able to supply a lot during the reconstruction in the mid-20th century. In the later 20th century the GATT came into effect, which was the precursor to the WTO. The WTO itself wasn't created until the 1990s.
Yea I don't see how people don't realize how the U.S. became a super power through globalization. After WWII Europe was left in shambles, the Nazi War machine had destroyed most of London through air raid, and the campaign in Africa, Italy and France had destroyed much of the industrial infrastructure of the European nations including Soviet Russia, and considering this "world war" was predominantly fought in Europe and Asia, meant that U.S. didn't suffer as much damage to their industrial infrastructure that Europe did. Even against Japan, the American campaign was to target Civilian/Industrial centers to cripple the Japanese war machine, but after the fighting in Iwo Jima and the Pacific, the Americans knew that a ground war would be wrought with high amounts of casualties so they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now after the surrender of Japan, and the fall of the Nazi empire you have Europe desperately trying to rebuild their broken cities and industries with also the growing threat of Stalin's brand of Communism. This naturally leads to heavy U.S. involvement through the Marshal Plan, which said they would lend money to states such as Greece and Turkey to prevent the foothold of communism and any other state that would choose to fight against the red threat. This money initially didn't have much value because the Europeans didn't believe that the money could be redeemed for anything of value, so the U.S. guaranteed that each dollar would have a gold value that could be exchanged. Now here is where globalization catapulted the U.S. to superpower status, with industry mostly destroyed in Europe the Europeans began importing great amounts of resources from the Americans with get this American Dollars, which accelerated the global market share of many of these companies such as Coca Cola, American Cinema and many other places, this plus the completely intact industrial complex converted back to civilian use gave Americans a great opportunity to fill the void of lack of industry in Europe and Asia. Also "Communism" really did help accelerate globalization.

This from Hunt, an historian on the post World War II History.
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Old 2010-03-18, 10:53   Link #6593
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I think the country I live in, USA, would probably be much better had globalization never occurred.
Arranged marriages and religious retards who pray to the sea god to prevent floods, rather than moving further inland.

Though I don't like to marry some obese woman(yes they think that fat women can bear more children, but they pass down hepatitis, high blood pressure, stroke to them as well) with no character and does nothing but cook and clean, and that globalisation has taken away them and replaced with skinny anorexics who expect me to earn $10k per month, I still think globalisation is a better choice. At least there are football and catgirls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Well, the problem seems a long way to subside, if they are treating pirates so kindly...
It's never gonna end without using the time-tested traditional anti-piracy policies; the downturn of piracy in the Malacca being due to the effectiveness of patrols, which I'm pretty sure are not too much concerned about the pirates well being .
Shotgun is used when the pirates are BOARDING. When they are approaching, the GPMG or the .50 MG is used. The closer they get, the more easily they are mowed down (there is always the "My warning shot missed" excuse for any ship captain).

That place is like 10 times smaller than the Gulf of Aden. And also the local navies have reliable ships like the Fearless and Kedah class Patrol Vessels. With Singapore and Malaysia there are already 16 PVs doing patrols in the region daily, keeping the pirates' heads down.

As for the pirates' well being, I am sure they will be treated accordingly to the UN Human Rights Charter before their death sentences though.
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Old 2010-03-18, 12:09   Link #6594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Yea I don't see how people don't realize how the U.S. became a super power through globalization. After WWII Europe was left in shambles, the Nazi War machine had destroyed most of London through air raid, and the campaign in Africa, Italy and France had destroyed much of the industrial infrastructure of the European nations including Soviet Russia, and considering this "world war" was predominantly fought in Europe and Asia, meant that U.S. didn't suffer as much damage to their industrial infrastructure that Europe did. Even against Japan, the American campaign was to target Civilian/Industrial centers to cripple the Japanese war machine, but after the fighting in Iwo Jima and the Pacific, the Americans knew that a ground war would be wrought with high amounts of casualties so they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now after the surrender of Japan, and the fall of the Nazi empire you have Europe desperately trying to rebuild their broken cities and industries with also the growing threat of Stalin's brand of Communism. This naturally leads to heavy U.S. involvement through the Marshal Plan, which said they would lend money to states such as Greece and Turkey to prevent the foothold of communism and any other state that would choose to fight against the red threat. This money initially didn't have much value because the Europeans didn't believe that the money could be redeemed for anything of value, so the U.S. guaranteed that each dollar would have a gold value that could be exchanged. Now here is where globalization catapulted the U.S. to superpower status, with industry mostly destroyed in Europe the Europeans began importing great amounts of resources from the Americans with get this American Dollars, which accelerated the global market share of many of these companies such as Coca Cola, American Cinema and many other places, this plus the completely intact industrial complex converted back to civilian use gave Americans a great opportunity to fill the void of lack of industry in Europe and Asia. Also "Communism" really did help accelerate globalization.

This from Hunt, an historian on the post World War II History.
Everything after the bolded sentence has nothing to do with globalization. While the facts stated in your post are 100% true, part of globalization is essentially the process of increasing the economies of scale (producing more for less) by outsourcing the labor and capital markets, essentially making production costs cheaper. Additionally, this process removes smaller businesses and replace them with franchise companies like McDonald's and Starbucks. What this will eventually end up doing is completely eliminating the middle class. This is partly why there is so much unemployment in the US and other western countries. Globalization was not created because European countries began importing goods from America, it was created to facilitate international trade through this large company franchises benefiting from economies of scale, which is why small businesses lose out on the deal, and decreasing the chances of a WW3. Reparations and the prevention the spread of communist ideals where another matter.
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Old 2010-03-18, 12:27   Link #6595
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
Hmm, I don't have my books and resources at the moment, but I think your timeline is not 100% right.

The U.S., when it was still young, was more of a raw materials provider than a goods seller. It was still known as a backwater than an industrial power like, say, England. I seem to remember that it was a capital crime in England to export tech (related to steel making only?) outside of the country?

Pre-WWI, I would agree in that the U.S. began to industrialize, but that is more due to the needs of (1) Reconstruction, (2) immigration and (3) expansion, esp. to the West. Opportunities appeared, and people (Europeans with the know-how, brains and money and Americans with the smarts) took advantage.

After WWII is more of when the U.S. began to become more of a goods supplier and a "global powerhouse", IMHO.
The Industrial revolution in the US began in the early 19th century. While the south of course were the major providers of raw materials, it was the north that created many factories, specifically a huge textile industry.

Without the foreign countries, our economy could never have been so prosperous.

When it got to the World Wars, both World War I and World War II, the US already had the economic power to overtake the European countries. It just wasn't channeling all its resources, and the destruction of many European countries helped the US to finally overtake them, which at this point was an inevitability as is China today to many other countries.

Anyhow, globalization was essential to how the US became so powerful. We didn't take ourselves out of our great depression by becoming isolationists again, but rather through the economic relations we made with the European countries, as we supplied them a crap ton of supplies during both World Wars, and afterwards when they were rendered incapable of producing enough for their countries.
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Old 2010-03-18, 15:12   Link #6596
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Old 2010-03-18, 15:52   Link #6597
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Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
D'oh... and then we just had the Barbie 'incident'.

Must've been someone playing a prank...
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Old 2010-03-18, 16:51   Link #6598
Dilla
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Lol, Wal-mart has been getting lots of bad press lately. Here's another one.

Walmart fires man for using medical marijuana.
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Old 2010-03-18, 20:51   Link #6599
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Everything after the bolded sentence has nothing to do with globalization. While the facts stated in your post are 100% true, part of globalization is essentially the process of increasing the economies of scale (producing more for less) by outsourcing the labor and capital markets, essentially making production costs cheaper. Additionally, this process removes smaller businesses and replace them with franchise companies like McDonald's and Starbucks. What this will eventually end up doing is completely eliminating the middle class. This is partly why there is so much unemployment in the US and other western countries. Globalization was not created because European countries began importing goods from America, it was created to facilitate international trade through this large company franchises benefiting from economies of scale, which is why small businesses lose out on the deal, and decreasing the chances of a WW3. Reparations and the prevention the spread of communist ideals where another matter.
Actually globalization is what allowed America to be great, if globalization hadn't occurred then the rebuilding on Europe would have been slower, the whole point was that Globalization and the results of WWII and the amount of rebuilding that need to occur catapulted way above the European powers, and considering the isolationism running around prior to the war it's quite pertinent to see the forest for the trees not the other way around. I mean don't forget to mention the explosion in advertising that also spurred corporatism to the forefront of efficiency compared to small businesses.
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Old 2010-03-18, 21:52   Link #6600
Joojoobees
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Actually globalization is what allowed America to be great
Well, that is a matter of opinion. I would say other things like the insistence on the democratic principles of human rights and self-determination are great things about America, and they preceded globalization. To each his own, I guess.
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