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 AnimeSuki Forum Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

 2010-03-08, 23:10 Link #1 Keroko Adeptus Animus Author     Join Date: Jan 2007 Age: 29 Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic The idea for this thread was inspired from a discussion that was taking place in the Uiharu character discussion thread where posters were making a legible effort to explain her abilities from a scientific point of view. Now that we have this thread, we no longer need to limit ourselves just with Uiharu's abilities to talk about the science. There are plenty other espers with equally interesting abilities to talk about. All spoilers are allowed, but they must be enclosed in clearly marked spoiler tags to accommodate anime-only viewers. The only other rule that must be followed is that everyone needs to respectful toward each other's opinion. Some of the posts were copied in the below from the Uiharu thread to give the participant a gist of what this thread topic is about. Enjoy this interesting discussion! .. Last edited by monir; 2010-03-18 at 14:01.
 2010-03-08, 23:10 Link #2 CrazyPerson Senior Member     Join Date: Mar 2007 ((TL;DR version: Her AIM maintains the thermal energy level of objects in contact with her.)) I think I'm going to ahead and say why I believe Uiharu's ability isn't entropy stop, psychokinesis, microwaves, or anything requiring conscious thought. Temperature is defined as the partial derivative of the energy in the system with respect to entropy: T = dE/dS where S is entropy. If there's no change in entropy, the derivative goes to zero and there's no temperature. Or, at the very least there's no change in temperature of whatever object she's touching. Now, if there's no change in temperature, that means the object she's holding can't give off or receive heat. The effect would be like touching something that's exactly the same temperature as your hand, but it isn't. This isn't the effect Uiharu has on the tayaki; it's definitely giving off heat. The best explanation of her ability would be that she can make an object's thermal energy remain constant, just like how the guy in the ball bearings (young Kuroko episode) can maintain constant potential and kinetic energy in a ball bearing. That way, the object Uiharu's touching never decreases in temperature, nor goes up, but can still give off heat energy. As a side note, her ability probably isn't telekinetic control over excitement state, using EM fields or microwaves of any sort. If it was, she'd be able to heat and/or cool things or basically set any object at any temperature she wished. Maintaining the heat energy level with one of these powers would require incredibly precise control of heating or cooling along with constant knowledge of the state of the energy level of the object at all times. That sounds more like level 5 control, like Mikoto having trouble keeping something from boiling over in the holodeck camping trip episode. Even she had to focus. The flowers are a red herring, and entropy relating to chaos doesn't mean it's bad.
 2010-03-09, 01:10 Link #3 MeisterBabylon ~ Your Smile ~ Author     Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 346Pro Age: 30 Well... creating energy out of nothing does seem like a common trait with all of them ESPers... Still, I bemoan the discovery that Uiharu turns out to be a Fire-type pokemon. Maybe someday, Flame users understand that they are in fact controlling oscillating vectors on individual atoms and take control of that, thus leveling up as wannabe Accels. Maybe that is why we don't see Fireblasters above Level 3, besides being a relatively common skill. __________________ 白露型駆逐艦の４番艦、夕立です。第三次ソロモン海戦では、けっこう頑張ったっぽい★？
Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson ((TL;DR version: Her AIM maintains the thermal energy level of objects in contact with her.))
I agree with your assessment (and have stated the exact same things several times already ), but to play devil's advocate for the 'entropy suppression' idea a little...

We don't know exactly what Uiharu experienced when she was holding the box of taiyaki, nor do we know what Haruue experienced when she took one taiyaki from the box. Thus, it may be that the box did not feel noticeably warm to Uiharu, and the taiyaki did not feel noticeably warm to Haruue until she removed it from the box.

What we do know is that:

A) When Haruue was holding the taiyaki in her hands - and thus, not touching Uiharu or the box - it was warm, as if it was freshly-baked.
B) Uiharu stated that she can maintain a constant temperature in objects that she touches; this apparently includes relatively complex systems or frames of reference, like taiyaki inside of a box, where she is in contact with the container rather than the actual object.
C) Uiharu stated that she cannot handle very hot objects.
D) Uiharu is a level one ability user.

Given that Uiharu is only level one, perhaps she can only suppress up to a certain, relatively low rate of entropic equalization? For example, she could keep a cold drink from warming or a taiyaki from cooling to room temperature, but she could not keep a ice cube from melting or a piece of hot metal from cooling to comfortable handling temperatures, because the rate at which they are losing or gaining energy is too great.

Once the ice cube was a puddle of cold water and the piece of hot metal was cool enough to touch, their rate of entropic equalization might be within her power's range of suppression, and thus she could keep them from heating or cooling further. In this scenario, suppressing the entropy of the system would not require any great degree of thought - that would come later, possibly, if she ever learned to suppress it only to a certain degree, so that objects under her power would heat or cool at a reduced rate.

Again, just playing devil's advocate; given the existence of the aforementioned 'constant speed' power, i think that Uiharu's power functioning similarly to that one is the more likely possibility...

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Before anything else, I'd just like to say that my person opinion is that the flowers are a red herring, a distraction, and that it means nothing. Moving on...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred I agree with your assessment (and have stated the exact same things several times already ), but to play devil's advocate for the 'entropy suppression' idea a little...
Yeah, I saw that you have, I was more or less actually trying mercilessly gun down the "entropy stop/decrease", "pyrokinesis," or "secondary heat generation abilities" since they annoyed me.

Just going to go through some stuff in your post because you make some great points.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred A) When Haruue was holding the taiyaki in her hands - and thus, not touching Uiharu or the box - it was warm, as if it was freshly-baked. B) Uiharu stated that she can maintain a constant temperature in objects that she touches; this apparently includes relatively complex systems or frames of reference, like taiyaki inside of a box, where she is in contact with the container rather than the actual object. C) Uiharu stated that she cannot handle very hot objects. D) Uiharu is a level one ability user.
A) Sounds good. Uiharu could have obtained the tayaki immediately after baking and her effect kept it warm.
B) Since all espers generate an AIM field, I posit that certain AIM fields extend further from an individual depending the individual. In this case, once Uiharu touches the box, her field envelops the box. Her ability then simply applies to everything within the field. Complexity wouldn't matter, but this is speculation. Uiharu probably has to consciously expand her AIM field power to objects she's touching though, Saten had to hug Uiharu in ep13 to stay warm.
C) Not being able to handle hot objects is actually a huge argument against entropy stop. If entropy stops the moment she touches an object, heat transfer immediately stops. She could then touch anything she wanted to and maintain that temperature for the item. She says she can't handle hot items because she can't touch them, not because she can't keep it that warm.
D) All sorts of espers violate conservation of energy principles no matter what the level, I suppose a level 1 Uiharu can do so as well.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Given that Uiharu is only level one, perhaps she can only suppress up to a certain, relatively low rate of entropic equalization? For example, she could keep a cold drink from warming or a taiyaki from cooling to room temperature, but she could not keep a ice cube from melting or a piece of hot metal from cooling to comfortable handling temperatures, because the rate at which they are losing or gaining energy is too great.
(Entropic equalization is probably not the right phrase to use here. Entropy tends towards the maximum and doesn't usually equalize to something unless you're talking about a closed system.) Again, if you mess with entropy, you get all sorts of wacky things like objects not feeling like they're at the appropriate temperatures. Haruue reaches into the box of tayaki, touches it and immediately sense that it's still very warm. If Uiharu's messing with entropy rates, the tayaki would need to be out of the box, then Haruue would feel as though the tayaki suddenly heated up. (When actually, heat transfer resumes due to entropy rates resuming normal). If she only has partial control over the change in entropy like you suggest, then Uiharu can't maintain any object at a constant temperature. Since an object is giving off heat, entropy of the object is increasing, the total heat must be decreasing.

Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power. She'd be able to kill any living being just by touching them. Entropy increasing is tied to things like fluid dynamics and chemical reactions. She'd be able to tell blood not to flow, or inhibit the chemical reactions that let plants generate energy. Hell, she'd actually make plants on her head die faster! If you can control entropy, you can't pick and choose what effects that it has.

If Uiharu's maintaining constant entropy on say, a person, you would get the
-Fluids don't flow. (She'd be able to stop a river, or blood from flowing, suffocate people or suffocate herself.)
-Chemical reactions don't take place. (Cause living matter to rot from lack of ATP, or stomach acid to chemically break down food. Prevent explosions.)
-Freeze an object's state right down to the quark level. (Essentially a freeze time method for an object without actually mucking with the fabric of time. If she was a higher level, I assume.)

These are vastly superior powers than "constant temperature," which she doesn't say she has.

((PS: I'm also dreadfully afraid that the author will come out and say "Uiharu can control entropy, her effects just aren't consistent because I didn't research properly." and he would be completely in the right and all my thinking would be wrong.))

((PPS: Entropy control suddenly just became an awesome idea for a power... but you'd have to get the effects right, and that would be tricky.))

 2010-03-10, 10:02 Link #6 Jimmy C Senior Member     Join Date: Jun 2007 CrazyPerson, not being able to touch extremely hot things is because they'll burn her even if she can maintain their current temperature.
Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Before anything else, I'd just like to say that my person opinion is that the flowers are a red herring, a distraction, and that it means nothing. Moving on... A) Sounds good. Uiharu could have obtained the tayaki immediately after baking and her effect kept it warm. B) Since all espers generate an AIM field, I posit that certain AIM fields extend further from an individual depending the individual. In this case, once Uiharu touches the box, her field envelops the box. Her ability then simply applies to everything within the field. Complexity wouldn't matter, but this is speculation. Uiharu probably has to consciously expand her AIM field power to objects she's touching though, Saten had to hug Uiharu in ep13 to stay warm.
I agree that 'range' and 'frame of reference' are probably both functions of her AIM field. I raised the idea of complex systems mostly because the series seems to lean heavily on 'calculation power' as a measurement of ability.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson C) Not being able to handle hot objects is actually a huge argument against entropy stop. If entropy stops the moment she touches an object, heat transfer immediately stops. She could then touch anything she wanted to and maintain that temperature for the item. She says she can't handle hot items because she can't touch them, not because she can't keep it that warm.
It's not necessarily the case that she can cause her power to take effect instantly; we have a canon example in the manga of a level 1 power user that has to struggle for quite some time before he can produce any measurable effect with his electromaster ability.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson D) All sorts of espers violate conservation of energy principles no matter what the level, I suppose a level 1 Uiharu can do so as well.
True; just saying that we may want to lower our expectations a little, in terms of how much control she should probably have over her ability.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson (Entropic equalization is probably not the right phrase to use here. Entropy tends towards the maximum and doesn't usually equalize to something unless you're talking about a closed system.)
I was talking about a closed system, actually. Another way to think of her power might be to say that she has the power to create a perfect, thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM. I guess i'm attacking the 'entropy' idea from a different tack than the folks who want to think of it as 'entropy' control.' I debated whether or not to say 'thermodynamic equalization' instead; ah well...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Again, if you mess with entropy, you get all sorts of wacky things like objects not feeling like they're at the appropriate temperatures. Haruue reaches into the box of tayaki, touches it and immediately sense that it's still very warm. If Uiharu's messing with entropy rates, the tayaki would need to be out of the box, then Haruue would feel as though the tayaki suddenly heated up. (When actually, heat transfer resumes due to entropy rates resuming normal).
It is possible that Uiharu stopped using her power before she offered the box to Haruue, though. The Taiyaki would not have had a chance to noticeably change in temperature. Perhaps exposing living organisms to her power has undesirable effects... though that would run directly counter to Kuroko's assertion that Uiharu's power is useless for getting her out of dangerous situations.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson If she only has partial control over the change in entropy like you suggest, then Uiharu can't maintain any object at a constant temperature. Since an object is giving off heat, entropy of the object is increasing, the total heat must be decreasing.
I'm actually suggesting that, if it were that sort of power, Uiharu would have almost no control over it; she would either be using her power at maximum strength, or not at all. I'm also suggesting that she very low 'threshold,' in terms of how far from 'ambient' a system can be before her power will totally fail to isolate it.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power.
Yeah, complex, gradient control over the concept of 'entropy' would be pretty game-breaking - but it seems to be that ultimately, any power user that reaches 'level 6' will immediately discover the grand unification theory and will be able to cause any effect with their power, regardless of what their original power was. 'Entropy Control' would probably be the ideal power for a 'Level 6' experiment. I would say, however, that 'System Isolation' as an 'entropy-related' power could probably be kept to somewhat usable level until level 6.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson ((PS: I'm also dreadfully afraid that the author will come out and say "Uiharu can control entropy, her effects just aren't consistent because I didn't research properly." and he would be completely in the right and all my thinking would be wrong.))
Unless Uiharu suddenly becomes extremely important in the light novels, her power will probably never be revisited, so no worries.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson ((PPS: Entropy control suddenly just became an awesome idea for a power... but you'd have to get the effects right, and that would be tricky.))
Indeed...

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jimmy C CrazyPerson, not being able to touch extremely hot things is because they'll burn her even if she can maintain their current temperature.
Which is precisely why I think her power is "constant temperature" and not "entropy control." It's the basis of my entire argument against entropy!

I thought I laid that out pretty clearly. Again, if she controlled entropy, she could cease their heat transfer by stopping entropy, and no heat would be given off.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred I was talking about a closed system, actually. Another way to think of her power might be to say that she has the power to create a perfect, thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM. I guess i'm attacking the 'entropy' idea from a different tack than the folks who want to think of it as 'entropy' control.' I debated whether or not to say 'thermodynamic equalization' instead; ah well...
I was going against the idea of a closed system since all espers violate conservation of energy in one way or another, it seemed silly to me to keep it that way. The thermodynamic system a human lives in is also not closed. If she's creating a thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM, that might produce problems for her to try to release her own generated body heat when she exercises. More importantly, the tayaki in her hands would still cool down if this was her power since the heat from the tayaki would flow into her hands and other parts of her body within the system and not keep the food warm.

Any idea that involves a transfer of heat will without fail show effects of temperature loss over time unless there's some sort of heat energy source. There must be something giving energy to the tayaki, there's no way around this point, using controlled entropy or thermodynamics can't change this point.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred It's not necessarily the case that she can cause her power to take effect instantly; we have a canon example in the manga of a level 1 power user that has to struggle for quite some time before he can produce any measurable effect with his electromaster ability.
True... but it would also be simple to wear an oven mitt and be able to touch a boiling kettle. The brief respite from the kettle burning her hands and the not super hand melting temperature would allow her power to kick in, that is, assuming entropy control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyPerson
Last nail in the "entropy control" theory: If you can control entropy, a whole series of better abilities would result if she had that power. She'd be able to kill any living being just by touching them. Entropy increasing is tied to things like fluid dynamics and chemical reactions. She'd be able to tell blood not to flow, or inhibit the chemical reactions that let plants generate energy. Hell, she'd actually make plants on her head die faster! If you can control entropy, you can't pick and choose what effects that it has.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Yeah, complex, gradient control over the concept of 'entropy' would be pretty game-breaking - but it seems to be that ultimately, any power user that reaches 'level 6' will immediately discover the grand unification theory and will be able to cause any effect with their power, regardless of what their original power was. 'Entropy Control' would probably be the ideal power for a 'Level 6' experiment. I would say, however, that 'System Isolation' as an 'entropy-related' power could probably be kept to somewhat usable level until level 6.
Ah, but you misunderstand me. If Uiharu at level 1 can inhibit entropy at an atomic level, then she would also be able to affect entropy at the molecular level at level 1! If you can control whether a ball bounces or not, you could probably stop if from moving in a particular direction just as easily. Vibrational and translational motion is the same thing, motion. She'd be able to do all I said at level 1.

I'm currently out of time, but I will be back with more later.

I'm enjoying these debates too much. >.> You're very good at this, Alhazred.

Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I was going against the idea of a closed system since all espers violate conservation of energy in one way or another, it seemed silly to me to keep it that way. The thermodynamic system a human lives in is also not closed. If she's creating a thermodynamically closed system within the bounds of her AIM, that might produce problems for her to try to release her own generated body heat when she exercises. More importantly, the tayaki in her hands would still cool down if this was her power since the heat from the tayaki would flow into her hands and other parts of her body within the system and not keep the food warm. Any idea that involves a transfer of heat will without fail show effects of temperature loss over time unless there's some sort of heat energy source. There must be something giving energy to the tayaki, there's no way around this point, using controlled entropy or thermodynamics can't change this point.
Ah, but i said 'within the bounds of her AIM,' but not 'encompassing her AIM.' No esper constantly exerts their power over all points within the bounds of their AIM, so if her power were 'thermodynamic isolation,' then she should be able to selectively isolate only the portion of her AIM that overlaps with the box of taiyaki, thus creating a closed system that, at a state of equilibrium, would be approximately the temperature of warm taiyaki.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson True... but it would also be simple to wear an oven mitt and be able to touch a boiling kettle. The brief respite from the kettle burning her hands and the not super hand melting temperature would allow her power to kick in, that is, assuming entropy control.
Which is why i proposed the idea of a 'threshold.' For instance: let us say her 'range' is '+/- 50 degrees.' If the temperature outside the closed system is 75 degrees, and the temperature inside the system is 115 degrees, then she could isolate the system. If, on the other hand, the temperature inside the system were 150 degrees, then her isolation would fail. If this were the case, then one way the power could be improved would be by widening its 'range of effect.'
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Ah, but you misunderstand me. If Uiharu at level 1 can inhibit entropy at an atomic level, then she would also be able to affect entropy at the molecular level at level 1! If you can control whether a ball bounces or not, you could probably stop if from moving in a particular direction just as easily. Vibrational and translational motion is the same thing, motion. She'd be able to do all I said at level 1.
It is not necessarily the case that the ability to affect a particular frame of reference also grants the ability to affect all frames of reference that encompass the frame of reference you can affect. I will admit, this is a conceptual difficulty inherent in trying to construct a power that operates by manipulating natural laws, rather than one that operates 'simply' by violating conservation of energy, but bear with me for a moment.

One could ask, if Aerohand and Hydrokinesis are somehow subsets of 'pure' Telekinesis, rather than 'material manipulation,' why can Kongou not telekinetically affect anything other than atmospherically dispersed gases? Similarly, you could ask how Accelerator's power is any different from very strong telekinesis, or why 'Aerohand' and 'Offensive Armor' are both considered level 4, when 'Aerohand' should theoretically be able to accomplish the exact same effect as 'Offensive Armor,' in addition to all the other things it can do.

Part of increasing level is increasing your understanding of how your 'personal reality' functions. In another thread, i actually did posit that greater understanding of her power might lead Uiharu to make the mental connection between vibrational motion and transitional motion, and the expansion of abilities such a breakthrough would grant. If her power remained the ability to create 'closed systems,' it could lead to some very bizarre effects - including the 'Constant Speed' effect. It may be that Constant Speed and Constant Temperature are both subsets of the same broader power, and the users of each are just starting with different base assumptions about the nature of their personal reality.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I'm currently out of time, but I will be back with more later. I'm enjoying these debates too much. >.> You're very good at this, Alhazred.
I look forward to it! I'm enjoying this quite a bit as well. It's nice to have an interlocutor who doesn't immediately counter with, 'Well, Accelerator/Touma is still better.'

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Haak Huh? I thought they did know, but just that she never actually showed it to them in action.
Actually, what Uiharu said was 'Misaka-tachi,' which roughly translates as 'Misaka et al.' The only person explicitly included in the 'does not know' group is Misaka. This might be because Uiharu idolizes Misaka, and was embarrassed by her relatively weak power. Kuroko obviously knows what Uiharu's power does; they've been friends for years, they trained in Judgment together, and Kuroko actually thought about it for a while before concluding that Uiharu's power wouldn't be able to get her out of jams. Saten may or may not know, but if she doesn't know, that might be because Uiharu is sensitive to Saten's insecurities regarding her own lack of ability, so she didn't want to bring it up if Saten didn't ask her about it.

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Sorry for the delay, midterms tend to disrupt my ability to make well reasoned posts, so I didn't make them.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Ah, but i said 'within the bounds of her AIM,' but not 'encompassing her AIM.' No esper constantly exerts their power over all points within the bounds of their AIM, so if her power were 'thermodynamic isolation,' then she should be able to selectively isolate only the portion of her AIM that overlaps with the box of taiyaki, thus creating a closed system that, at a state of equilibrium, would be approximately the temperature of warm taiyaki.
I don't contest this. This is a valid interpretation. I just hate how there's not enough information from the anime to confirm a right or wrong for either of us.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Which is why i proposed the idea of a 'threshold.' For instance: let us say her 'range' is '+/- 50 degrees.' If the temperature outside the closed system is 75 degrees, and the temperature inside the system is 115 degrees, then she could isolate the system. If, on the other hand, the temperature inside the system were 150 degrees, then her isolation would fail. If this were the case, then one way the power could be improved would be by widening its 'range of effect.'It is not necessarily the case that the ability to affect a particular frame of reference also grants the ability to affect all frames of reference that encompass the frame of reference you can affect. I will admit, this is a conceptual difficulty inherent in trying to construct a power that operates by manipulating natural laws, rather than one that operates 'simply' by violating conservation of energy, but bear with me for a moment.
But all frames of references are equal under the equivalence principle. Anything that's only valid in a specific frame of reference and not in others is not considered invariant, and in physics, means that it is either not possible, or doesn't exist.

While all esper abilities make break laws like conservation of energy or momentum, all observers in all frames of reference can agree on which law is broken. If not, there's no consistent universe for there to be anyone in. This is the very basis of General Relativity.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred One could ask, if Aerohand and Hydrokinesis are somehow subsets of 'pure' Telekinesis, rather than 'material manipulation,' why can Kongou not telekinetically affect anything other than atmospherically dispersed gases? Similarly, you could ask how Accelerator's power is any different from very strong telekinesis, or why 'Aerohand' and 'Offensive Armor' are both considered level 4, when 'Aerohand' should theoretically be able to accomplish the exact same effect as 'Offensive Armor,' in addition to all the other things it can do.
Your example here isn't valid. You're assuming the two powers are subsets of telekinesis. They could be affecting their respective materials through unrelated means. You're relating abilities because of their effect and not their cause. An example: a ball on a table moves towards someone. Maybe they telekinetically applied a force to move it. Or maybe they generated a specific gravity field to affect the ball only. While the effect is the same, cause of the effects aren't subsets of each other. On the other hand, my example is valid because I'm evaluating different effects due to the same natural law.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Part of increasing level is increasing your understanding of how your 'personal reality' functions. In another thread, i actually did posit that greater understanding of her power might lead Uiharu to make the mental connection between vibrational motion and transitional motion, and the expansion of abilities such a breakthrough would grant. If her power remained the ability to create 'closed systems,' it could lead to some very bizarre effects - including the 'Constant Speed' effect. It may be that Constant Speed and Constant Temperature are both subsets of the same broader power, and the users of each are just starting with different base assumptions about the nature of their personal reality.
A logical progression of thought, but hasn't been verified so far. We've seen no espers in the process of gaining levels, only the knowledge that it is possible. The level upper is invalid. Even if teachers in the city have pushed this thought, it could still be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time teachers have taught something wrong until a better understanding was gained.

Again though, having control of entropy may give constant speed and constant temperature effects, but being able to generate a constant speed effect may not guarantee that person to have entropic control abilities. But yes, if Uiharu ups her level, she may start displaying a whole range of super powers.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred I look forward to it! I'm enjoying this quite a bit as well. It's nice to have an interlocutor who doesn't immediately counter with, 'Well, Accelerator/Touma is still better.'
Saten's power is obviously better. >.> Totally owns those other two.

This reminds me, I have an interesting theory on how Touma's ability can be made consistent with the problem of "stopping railgun blasts but not accelerator accelerated objects." I should post that some other time.

I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things:

-Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.)
-Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities.

Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.

(To spite the author though, I will point out that if the tayaki's maintained at a freshly baked temperature for that long, it's probably dried out and untasty when they eat it.)

Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Sorry for the delay, midterms tend to disrupt my ability to make well reasoned posts, so I didn't make them.
Np; just in time for the new episode to... not reveal anything new, regarding Uiharu or Saten's powers, as far as i can tell from summaries ...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I don't contest this. This is a valid interpretation. I just hate how there's not enough information from the anime to confirm a right or wrong for either of us.
Unfortunately, with only a few episodes left, i doubt the necessary information will become available anytime soon.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson But all frames of references are equal under the equivalence principle. Anything that's only valid in a specific frame of reference and not in others is not considered invariant, and in physics, means that it is either not possible, or doesn't exist. While all esper abilities make break laws like conservation of energy or momentum, all observers in all frames of reference can agree on which law is broken. If not, there's no consistent universe for there to be anyone in. This is the very basis of General Relativity.
I wasn't disputing that a power should function in the same way in all frames of reference; was was stating that a specific power user might not be able to apply it equally to all frames of reference. This might be due to a paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding; take your pick.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Your example here isn't valid. You're assuming the two powers are subsets of telekinesis. They could be affecting their respective materials through unrelated means. You're relating abilities because of their effect and not their cause. An example: a ball on a table moves towards someone. Maybe they telekinetically applied a force to move it. Or maybe they generated a specific gravity field to affect the ball only. While the effect is the same, cause of the effects aren't subsets of each other. On the other hand, my example is valid because I'm evaluating different effects due to the same natural law.
Conservation of Energy is a pretty broad natural law; it encompasses everything in the observable universe. Any effect with no observable cause is a candidate for being a violation of Conservation of Energy. I wasn't saying that all powers that 'move things around' must be sub-powers of 'general telekinesis;' i was pretty much saying the exact opposite. Until they define a 'power source' for power users, all powers violate conservation of energy; they are effects with no quantifiable cause. I'm saying that the specific mechanisms by which individual powers violate conservation of energy can be infinitely varied, and 'entropy manipulation' might be one of those mechanisms.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson A logical progression of thought, but hasn't been verified so far. We've seen no espers in the process of gaining levels, only the knowledge that it is possible. The level upper is invalid. Even if teachers in the city have pushed this thought, it could still be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time teachers have taught something wrong until a better understanding was gained.
Misaka is often pointed out as an example of a student who progressed from level 1 to level 5, but they have also stated that genetics play a large role in ability. Still, it is understood that Misaka was not consciously capable at birth of all the feats she is capable of in present canon.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Again though, having control of entropy may give constant speed and constant temperature effects, but being able to generate a constant speed effect may not guarantee that person to have entropic control abilities. But yes, if Uiharu ups her level, she may start displaying a whole range of super powers.
I was never arguing for a guarantee; i was just arguing for the possibility. There are a bunch of different ways that the observed effects could be produced; the fun part is looking for the ones that fit best with what we can observe - and the ones that would allow Uiharu to fry Accelerator to a crisp sometime in the future...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Saten's power is obviously better. >.> Totally owns those other two.
Well, they made good on revealing Uiharu's power (to an extent), so hopefully we'll know what Saten's is as well within the next few episodes.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson This reminds me, I have an interesting theory on how Touma's ability can be made consistent with the problem of "stopping railgun blasts but not accelerator accelerated objects." I should post that some other time.
I have given up arguing about Touma's power; i think it pretty much does whatever it needs to do in the story the author is writing, and probably doesn't have any deep, underlying rhyme or reason.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things: -Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.) -Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities. Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.
Heh, but if that were the case, then what form does the energy take? Microwaves? Direct increase in the kinetic energy of the molecules? What molecules? Just water, or anything? So many possibilities...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson (To spite the author though, I will point out that if the tayaki's maintained at a freshly baked temperature for that long, it's probably dried out and untasty when they eat it.)
To which the author would probably reply, 'No it's not; it's still moist and delicious. Look at how much Haruue enjoys getting that bean jam all over her face.' and then not bother to explain how that's possible...

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred I wasn't disputing that a power should function in the same way in all frames of reference; was was stating that a specific power user might not be able to apply it equally to all frames of reference. This might be due to a paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding; take your pick.
I'm not clear what you are saying here. Paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding shouldn't matter. If a power user applies a power to their frame of reference, it must be applied equally to all frames. There is no pick an choose. Could you clarify?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Misaka is often pointed out as an example of a student who progressed from level 1 to level 5, but they have also stated that genetics play a large role in ability. Still, it is understood that Misaka was not consciously capable at birth of all the feats she is capable of in present canon.
True, but I'm just pointing out that understanding the concept of personalized reality might not be the key at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhazred
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I hope I'm not being premature, but I'm going say that I can not rule out entropy control without either two things: -Uiharu can make a thermally isolated system (ie. tayaki gives off no heat until touched by Haruue.) -Uiharu levels up and provides more information on the effects of her abilities. Though, like you, Alhazred, I still maintain that it's more likely she's drawing zero-point energy to keep the darn piece of tayaki the same temperature.
Heh, but if that were the case, then what form does the energy take? Microwaves? Direct increase in the kinetic energy of the molecules? What molecules? Just water, or anything? So many possibilities...
Most likely just direct increase in kinetic vibration energy. Microwaves or anything else would involve a secondary power which isn't suggested anywhere. Most likely it applies equally to all molecules and not just water; that would requiring picking and choosing.

And to the "no, it's not..." thing, well, he'd have to live with the fact that I pointed out one more consistency! (and then he'd not care about it, which makes me sad.)

Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson I'm not clear what you are saying here. Paucity of calculation power, experience, creativity or understanding shouldn't matter. If a power user applies a power to their frame of reference, it must be applied equally to all frames. There is no pick an choose. Could you clarify
Well, take Accelerator, for instance. Accelerator's power is supposedly 'vector control.' If his power actually is to alter vectors on an absolute scale, and it was applied to an object simultaneously all the way down to the quantum scale and all the way up to the universal scale, then if he told a bullet moving toward him, relative to his own frame of reference, to then move away from him, the bullet would disintegrate, transform into either a super-fluid quark plasma or some form of pure energy, and shoot off away from him at some complex transformation of the expansion speed of the universe. Frame of reference must be a trait that can be defined selectively for some of these powers to function as advertised.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson True, but I'm just pointing out that understanding the concept of personalized reality might not be the key at all.
Possible, but i would personally say that this seems rather unlikely in the context of this story.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Most likely just direct increase in kinetic vibration energy. Microwaves or anything else would involve a secondary power which isn't suggested anywhere. Most likely it applies equally to all molecules and not just water; that would requiring picking and choosing.
Picking and choosing, or rather 'inherent limitation,' seems to be an important aspect of many powers in this story.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson And to the "no, it's not..." thing, well, he'd have to live with the fact that I pointed out one more consistency! (and then he'd not care about it, which makes me sad.)
Heh, at least the author is enthusiastic about his particular brand of broken pseudo-science. Most of them in the shounen genre seem to just make up and change the 'story rules' whenever they feel like it...

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:
 Well, take Accelerator, for instance. Accelerator's power is supposedly 'vector control.' If his power actually is to alter vectors on an absolute scale, and it was applied to an object simultaneously all the way down to the quantum scale and all the way up to the universal scale, then if he told a bullet moving toward him, relative to his own frame of reference, to then move away from him, the bullet would disintegrate, transform into either a super-fluid quark plasma or some form of pure energy, and shoot off away from him at some complex transformation of the expansion speed of the universe. Frame of reference must be a trait that can be defined selectively for some of these powers to function as advertised.

There's no evidence to suggest what half of the stuff you just wrote.

Any object accelerator uses his power on doesn't need to transform into any other state of energy or otherwise.

Why does the expansion on the universe matter?

A bullet he tells to move in the opposite direction to him doesn't transform into some energy any more than a girder he's throwing a Touma.
------------------------
Focusing on the more important: I hope we're not misunderstanding each other on the concept of frame of reference. Are you saying that accelerator defines his frame of reference to be at rest, so that the when the bullet hits him, he can define an opposite vector for that bullet to go?

Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson There's no evidence to suggest what half of the stuff you just wrote. Any object accelerator uses his power on doesn't need to transform into any other state of energy or otherwise. Why does the expansion on the universe matter? A bullet he tells to move in the opposite direction to him doesn't transform into some energy any more than a girder he's throwing a Touma. ------------------------ Focusing on the more important: I hope we're not misunderstanding each other on the concept of frame of reference. Are you saying that accelerator defines his frame of reference to be at rest, so that the when the bullet hits him, he can define an opposite vector for that bullet to go?
The bullet is a 'complex system' just as much as a building is. It consists of molecules, atoms, subatomic particles and energetic wave forms, all of which have vectors that Accelerator can (and does) adjust in canon. He can bend light; he can redirect lightning; he can create plasma by controlling the vectors of electrons independent of the nuclei they orbit.

He can also 'go big' as well. Recently in the light novels he changed the vector of an entire building relative to the rotational center of the earth, causing the entire building to move 2 kilometers contra-rotationally at the angular velocity of an object on the surface of the earth. If he expanded this even further, he could alter vectors relative to center of the solar system, the center of the galaxy, the center of the universe, etc.

Thus, if he told all of the independent vectors in a bullet, from the subatomic scale all the way up to the scale where they can be perceived as a bullet, to 'go that way,' all at once, relative to the center of the universe, the bullet would break down into subatomic particles and energy, and shoot off in the indicated direction with velocity determined as a function of the expansion speed of the universe.

CrazyPerson
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred The bullet is a 'complex system' just as much as a building is. It consists of molecules, atoms, subatomic particles and energetic wave forms, all of which have vectors that Accelerator can (and does) adjust in canon. He can bend light; he can redirect lightning; he can create plasma by controlling the vectors of electrons independent of the nuclei they orbit.
Yup, so far so good.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred He can also 'go big' as well. Recently in the light novels he changed the vector of an entire building relative to the rotational center of the earth, causing the entire building to move 2 kilometers contra-rotationally at the angular velocity of an object on the surface of the earth. If he expanded this even further, he could alter vectors relative to center of the solar system, the center of the galaxy, the center of the universe, etc.
All good until "centre of the universe." (You're also wrong on accelerator being able to move everything relative to the centre of the universe. There is no centre of the universe. Everything else is fine.)

-the earth takes it's frame of reference to be zero. Then accelerator changes the vector of the building and it moves. To the earth, the building just moved 2 kilometres.

-to the building itself though, it would set it's own frame of reference to be zero, and suddenly, to the building, it appears that the earth just rotated underneath it 2 kilometres.

The earth would say the building moved, and the building says the earth moved, but both frames are valid and equal. Simply choosing a frame of reference doesn't make it special.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Alhazred Thus, if he told all of the independent vectors in a bullet, from the subatomic scale all the way up to the scale where they can be perceived as a bullet, to 'go that way,' all at once, relative to the center of the universe, the bullet would break down into subatomic particles and energy, and shoot off in the indicated direction with velocity determined as a function of the expansion speed of the universe.
Accelerator can't tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to the centre of the universe. There is none.

Accerator can tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to himself though.

There's a logical break from where you jump from "bullet goes that way" to "bullet breaks down into subatomic particles and energy." One does not follow the other.

While the bullet is a huge complex system with multiple vectors from the atoms and spinning electrons, to the frame of reference of the bullet, the whole universe is moving towards the bullet. The complex system of "the bullet" is going about it's merry business with all it's internal electron orbiting and so on. When the universe, with accelerator in it, hits the bullet, the bullet sees the rest of the universe bounce away from it uniformly. This frame of reference is just as valid as Accelerator setting himself as an unmoving frame of reference where the bullet is heading towards him, then the bullet is bounced by his power.

There's no picking a frame of reference, they're all valid. And technically, any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me."

We might need to move this over to the accelerator thread. If you want to, quote my post and just post in the other thread. I'll check both threads for your reply.

Alhazred
Senior Member

Join Date: Jun 2009
[/QUOTE]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson All good until "centre of the universe." (You're also wrong on accelerator being able to move everything relative to the centre of the universe. There is no centre of the universe. Everything else is fine.)
You've got me there. Truthfully, i haven't taken a physics course in over a decade. Much of my point still stands, though; compared to, say, the center of our own galaxy, the angular velocity of the earth is pretty mind-boggling.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson -the earth takes it's frame of reference to be zero. Then accelerator changes the vector of the building and it moves. To the earth, the building just moved 2 kilometres. -to the building itself though, it would set it's own frame of reference to be zero, and suddenly, to the building, it appears that the earth just rotated underneath it 2 kilometres. The earth would say the building moved, and the building says the earth moved, but both frames are valid and equal. Simply choosing a frame of reference doesn't make it special.
The point i was making was that the vector changed relative to the earth, but not necessarily relative to Accelerator, invalidating your later assertion that 'any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me.",' unless Accelerator is presumed to have the ability to alter the vector of the entire universe external to that building (possible, i guess, if all frames of reference are equal, but that makes for a power that could do some catastrophic things on an astronomical scale, unless there are limitations set somehow, which is where the dependence on calculation and understanding come in).
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Accelerator can't tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to the centre of the universe. There is none.
That point, i will conceded; my bad.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson Accerator can tell a bullet to go "that way" relative to himself though.
Or, apparently, relative to the earth itself; the impression is given that he can choose. On what scale does that choice end?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson There's a logical break from where you jump from "bullet goes that way" to "bullet breaks down into subatomic particles and energy." One does not follow the other. While the bullet is a huge complex system with multiple vectors from the atoms and spinning electrons, to the frame of reference of the bullet, the whole universe is moving towards the bullet. The complex system of "the bullet" is going about it's merry business with all it's internal electron orbiting and so on. When the universe, with accelerator in it, hits the bullet, the bullet sees the rest of the universe bounce away from it uniformly. This frame of reference is just as valid as Accelerator setting himself as an unmoving frame of reference where the bullet is heading towards him, then the bullet is bounced by his power.
And why can he not affect the vectors of subatomic particles within a system? He does it all the time. He's pale because from birth he has been subconsciously altering the vectors of ultraviolet light. The light is not isolated; it interacts with matter in the atmosphere, and is therefore part of a system. The atmosphere is perhaps not as cohesive a system as a bullet, but it is still a system. All matter is technically part of a single system (all objects with mass affect all other objects with mass gravitationally, for instance), but no esper power applies to all matter uniformly and at the same time. Why not?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson There's no picking a frame of reference, they're all valid. And technically, any esper powers that move things just goes, "move this in relation to me."
See above.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by CrazyPerson We might need to move this over to the accelerator thread. If you want to, quote my post and just post in the other thread. I'll check both threads for your reply.
I'm not sure its worth belaboring this particular point much further. The definition of accelerator's power is particularly troublesome because vectors change based on the location of the 'observer.' The moment he decides, 'the observer doesn't have to be me' it all gets very messy... unless of course we want to say that it observer is always him, and he is simply able to affect the entire universe at once.

 2010-03-13, 07:34 Link #19 Marcus H. Dead Fish Deadpan     Join Date: May 2009 Location: the Philippines Time travel would be too complicated, even more complicated than calculating with the involvement of the 11th dimension. Awaki Musujime, a powerful long-distance Teleporter at Level 4 has developed a trauma of using her powers on herself because she experienced being stuck waist-down on concrete after teleporting. Another thing to ponder on is that the 11th Dimension is somewhat misleading because there are no 5-10th dimensions to begin with, well, AFAIK. Teleportation and some other powers require manipulation of 3 dimensions, but Time Travel would require both mastery of the 3 dimensions plus the ability to manipulate the 4th dimension on himself, which would be a whole new world of calculations. __________________ Chat with the Animesuki forum members on Discord! Drop me or RRW a PM for the link! Autumn 2016: Hibike! Euphonium S2 (5/1c), Stella no Mahou (4/12), Girlish Number (8/12), WWW. Working! (5/13), Sangatsu no Lion (3/23) and Udon no Kuni no Kiniro Kemari (2/12). Winter 2017: Hand Shakers and Isekai Shokudou. Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon is a maybe. Contact me on Wikia and MyAnimeList. MyAnimeList Status|| Watching: 42. Completed: 278. Plan to watch: 47.
 2010-03-13, 09:14 Link #20 Sol Falling Senior Member     Join Date: Oct 2007 Age: 27 Actually, time isn't a '4th dimension' in the sense that the other dimensions are. It's only called that because it's convenient to conceptualize it as a 'fourth axis' visually. The actual 4th dimension, as well as dimensions 5-11, are actually further spatial dimensions. If I remember my random meanderings through wikipedia correctly, dimensions 4-10 are pretty much confirmed as part of a theory called 'superstring' or something, and it's only the 11th which is currently being contended (alternatively, there might be even more). If I've got it right, the spatial dimensions we (as humans) can't sense are supposedly the dimensions by which non-contact forces like gravity or the strong and weak nuclear forces work, via the interactions between subatomic particles such as quarks ('cause, y'know for example, how can gravity pull objects towards each other if they aren't even touching? lol, you might think 'what are you saying, don't even ask that question' but it turns out, if you think about it, that maybe they actually are touching. It's just that the way they do so is via some theoretical particles which are called gravitrons, which are connected to each other in a higher dimension). As for the 'string' part of string theory, those are the theoretical things 'connecting' all these particles in those higher dimensions--what we percieve as 'particles' are really just the ends of these 'strings', the rest of which are hidden in some other dimension. Teleporters using the 11th dimension to teleport things therefore makes a 'meh' sort of sense to me, given my low-level understanding of this stuff. Moving through a higher spatial dimension would indeed appear to be teleportation to our perception, just like how they explain what we percieve as 'forces at a distance' like gravity. But I'm sure that, to all the real physicists who know what the 11th dimension is actually supposed to do or who might even be arguing that it doesn't exist, such an explanation for psychic 'teleporting' abilities might be completely off-base. To the rest of the physics guys: lol, I'm just a n00b procrastinating his way through an undergraduate degree here. My lectures have gotten nowhere near addressing this stuff (don't think they ever will), so call me out if anything I've said was complete bullshit. __________________ Seasonal enjoyment ratings: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Sora no Method 20/5 :: Shirobako 20/5 :: Yuuki Yuuna 15/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 Winter: Yuri Kuma Arashi 24/5 :: Kancolle 24/5 :: Koufuku Graffiti 80/5 God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu Sonohana twitter follow campaign: mikajyo_info :: rewards (anime adaptation if they reach 50000!!) Exceptional shoujo manga: Last Game

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