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Old 2010-03-13, 16:21   Link #21
kwantum0
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Time travel would be too complicated, even more complicated than calculating with the involvement of the 11th dimension. Awaki Musujime, a powerful long-distance Teleporter at Level 4 has developed a trauma of using her powers on herself because she experienced being stuck waist-down on concrete after teleporting.
Well, what i meant was an arch that included some aspect of time travel and the fun involved with paradoxes and stuff like that. You don't actually need a time traveling power. Since some abilities are FTL, information can be sent through time by utilizing these powers. If so i can imagine a story arch based on a time travel mechanism which is an affect of an unrelated ability. I think it would be really interesting and probably a good direction from a creative point of view. I was just wondering why we don't have any Time travel archs yet. (also, abilities which use frames of reference close to the SoL could experience weird relativistic effects which would also be interesting as a story device)

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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Another thing to ponder on is that the 11th Dimension is somewhat misleading because there are no 5-10th dimensions to begin with, well, AFAIK. Teleportation and some other powers require manipulation of 3 dimensions, but Time Travel would require both mastery of the 3 dimensions plus the ability to manipulate the 4th dimension on himself, which would be a whole new world of calculations.
once again, since we are speculating abilities which already break the laws of physics, i doubt it matters to much. You don't necessarily need to manipulate any dimensions for time traveling, you just need to travel fast enough. Also in terms of calculation you are correct in assuming it would be more difficult. Although probably more so conceptually, then computationally.

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Actually, time isn't a '4th dimension' in the sense that the other dimensions are. It's only called that because it's convenient to conceptualize it as a 'fourth axis' visually. The actual 4th dimension, as well as dimensions 5-11, are actually further spatial dimensions.
First of all space and time are the same thing, they exist in a single inseparable fabric we call spacetime. Dimensions are just ways we conceptually divide this fabric to understand it easier. In all practicality, physicist treat space and time the same. In this way time is the forth dimension. The only difference is, there is only a single direction to it. There are many interesting ways to explain the arrow of time, the most correct in my opinion is that the directionality is an emergent property of physical laws. At the atomic level, an event is equally valid either way through the forth dimension, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Yet, at larger scales this doesn't hold true, and part of that has to do with probability, specifically in terms of entropy. Entropy defines the arrow of time, systems generally decay from states of low entropy, that is specific organization, to states of high entropy, chaotic organization. This happens because in large systems there are many more ways to arrange particle without order that there are to arrange them with order.

If you imagine the brain as a computational system, it is much easier for it to discern simple and more ordered systems than chaotic ones. Thus, its easier for us to think of past events, which are computational simple, then to think of future events which are harder to calculate. That is why the human mind perceives an arrow that is not necessarily true. The universe works just as well forwards as backwards, just only way is computationally simpler to understand.

This is probably not the best explanation, and if your interested in this topic you should search for "entropy and the arrow of time"

Sol Falling, you are basically correct about string theory (now membrane theory), the only thing i'd caution you on is that String theory is one of those ideas that has been and might always will be 10 years from completion. Its a nice idea, but by no means the correct one. I do believe that there are probably other dimensions, and that reality is much grander than we imagine, or can possible imagine.

(teleporters and timetravelers - its the same thing - are forth dimensional beings)
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Old 2010-03-14, 12:30   Link #22
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
Well... creating energy out of nothing does seem like a common trait with all of them ESPers...

Still, I bemoan the discovery that Uiharu turns out to be a Fire-type pokemon. Maybe someday, Flame users understand that they are in fact controlling oscillating vectors on individual atoms and take control of that, thus leveling up as wannabe Accels.

Maybe that is why we don't see Fireblasters above Level 3, besides being a relatively common skill.
You do realize that telepathy is probably the most powerfully broad ability out there? Sure, Accelerater has it simplified for him, but he has his limitations. A super telepathic person can bend light waves, alter quark behavior and remake spacetime in his/her AIM field as we know it. If you can alter how subatomic particles behave, YOU WIN.
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Old 2010-03-14, 14:43   Link #23
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surely you meant telekinesis.

Also, it wouldn't seem to imply telekinesis in the classic sense per se. More like telekinesis as an action mechanism. Aero Shooters, for example, can't use telekinesis in the broad spectrum, but maybe the method employed to move the wind is selective telekinesis biased towards air.
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Old 2010-03-18, 14:04   Link #24
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Thread is now open for business. Keroko has our thanks for coming up with the thread title!
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Old 2010-03-18, 16:07   Link #25
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I'll address the current discussion later; I just wanted to comment about the thread idea as a whole.

Everyone should be aware that; if you go deep enough, applying scientific theory to super powers is exactly as stupid as it seems (if something about railgun's setting made you think it was a good idea, it wasn't). I think it's fun and all, but in the end I can just see this thread becoming a huge mob where everybody correctly proves everybody else wrong. Oh well, this seems like a fun place to learn FUNSCIENCE =). I don't have time now, but I'll catch up later.
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Old 2010-03-18, 16:11   Link #26
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I love funscience... I mean reading about it. It's very interesting, although I feel a bit knocked down not having near as much knowledge as others here.
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Old 2010-03-18, 16:46   Link #27
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About the whole spacetime dimension order jargon: I have a question.

Dimensions are dimensions, regardless of what "axis" you choose, right? We like to envision the axii of the second dimension being at a perfect right angle, but it really isn't like that, right? In actuality, the perfect grid's we envision the dimensions to be in are actually just that way for convenient reference, right?

Anyhow, how do we know the order of dimensions again? How do we even know there's an order to them? Is it really the "third dimension, the fourth dimension", or is it just an object with 3 dimensions? What I'm saying is, how are all of the theoretical thinkers determining the order of the dimensions?

Can we "skip" dimensions by being constant in the 4th dimension but then free to dance around in the 5th axis of movement? I'm so confused how these thinkers determined the sequence of different dimensions when we can't observe them.
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Old 2010-03-18, 18:41   Link #28
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Thread is now open for business. Keroko has our thanks for coming up with the thread title!
Thanks to all the mods that made this tread.
It feels much better to have a discussion without thinking you might be going to off topic. And i like how you opened it up to include all abilities in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babohtea
Everyone should be aware that; if you go deep enough, applying scientific theory to super powers is exactly as stupid as it seems
haha, my thoughts exactly. But its fun to speculate and i enjoy have physics discussions where i get to practice using my (practical?) knowledge. I think that there is a trend is most modern media, towards really complex and interesting stories which engage the fans and cause tons of discussion (LOST being a good example). Although Railgun might not be that kind of show, it still is technical enough to have fun speculating with.

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Originally Posted by babohtea
Dimensions are dimensions, regardless of what "axis" you choose, right? We like to envision the axii of the second dimension being at a perfect right angle, but it really isn't like that, right? In actuality, the perfect grid's we envision the dimensions to be in are actually just that way for convenient reference, right?
Right and wrong. Dimension are basically directions through a space independent from each other. That means an object can be traveling through nth dimensions with nth independent magnitudes in its vector. Also note that "n" doesn't necessarily need to be a whole number (fractal universes would be examples of in-between dimensions). You are also right in stating that dimensions don't need to be right angles of each other, but not because of what your thinking. The 90 degree rule only applies to euclidean spaces, but our universe is hyperbolic. Matter effects the shape of the universe, bending and stretching it, so it's possible that an infinite amount of planes can exist that are parallel to a single plane, but all intersect the same point. This means that angles won't add up to what we expect them to. Most Physicists don't actually view the universe as a perfect grid, you can blame the media for that. Although we do use geometry its much more abstract.

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Originally Posted by babohtea
Anyhow, how do we know the order of dimensions again? How do we even know there's an order to them? Is it really the "third dimension, the fourth dimension", or is it just an object with 3 dimensions? What I'm saying is, how are all of the theoretical thinkers determining the order of the dimensions?
Think about it this way. Ignoring time(i've tried to explain time in my previous posts), is there and way to distinguish between the 3 dimensions you are familiar with? Also, does there have to be rigidity to the dimensions: isn't your 'up' different from another person on the earth? Remember dimension are only conceptual. They don't exist; they are like the borders on a map. There is no order to the dimensions. We talk about 4th or 5th dimensions rather when describing "things" (such as space, or particles, or structures) which exist in directions we cannot imagine. You cannot 'skip' dimensions, as most of the time dimensions are defined to allow the least complexity when doing the math.

It might seem like we are adding dimensions in an order when we start talking about higher and higher dimensions, but it helps to imagine lower dimensions first. Take a plane like a sheet of paper. Everything drawn on that sheet exists virtually in only 2 dimensions (avoided saying '2nd'). When you bend and fold that sheet through 3 dimensions, it doesn't effect what's happening on the 2 dimensional plane. In the same way, you should imagine our dimensions as being a plane in a 4th or 5th dimensional world: warping and twisting, without us noticing. Technically if higher dimensions exist, we have a higher dimensional space, it would just be that we are unaware of this.


Getting back to the anime side of things, i was wonder what Touma's ability could be? I'm guessing, since it effects both magic and ESP it has a source opposite regular abilities. I also never fully understood his ability in the first place; if he can't stop the physical outcome of an ability, why can he stop Misaka's railgun? doesn't the coin have a velocity independent of her power, once its neutralized? (or maybe hes just gotten lucky, and her go full power on him, vaporizing the coin.)
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Old 2010-03-18, 19:05   Link #29
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Originally Posted by kwantum0 View Post
Getting back to the anime side of things, i was wonder what Touma's ability could be? I'm guessing, since it effects both magic and ESP it has a source opposite regular abilities. I also never fully understood his ability in the first place; if he can't stop the physical outcome of an ability, why can he stop Misaka's railgun? doesn't the coin have a velocity independent of her power, once its neutralized? (or maybe hes just gotten lucky, and her go full power on him, vaporizing the coin.)
Well Imagin Breaker is neither Magic or Esper Ability. It is something else hence Touma is classied Level 0.

Fiamma of God's Right Seat believes he knows what Touma's ability is. It is something of Divine nature. And he wants it to complete his power.

Come to think of it if we believe Touma about his bad luck and it is associated with Imagin Breaker, Touma is the exact opposite of a Saint who has unnatural luck, like Kaori.
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Old 2010-03-18, 20:45   Link #30
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Fiamma of God's Right Seat believes he knows what Touma's ability is. It is something of Divine nature. And he wants it to complete his power.
The only way to make Fiamma to unlock his full power is reaching the state of La Persona superiore a Dio taking away the original sin from his body. Maybe Touma power can destroy that kind of illusion.

Quote:
Come to think of it if we believe Touma about his bad luck and it is associated with Imagin Breaker, Touma is the exact opposite of a Saint who has unnatural luck, like Kaori.
Terra of the Left something like that and by the same way Touma should have discovered since his childhood. The problem is Touma was send to Academy City when kid.
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Old 2010-03-18, 20:45   Link #31
Jimmy C
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I've speculated previously that esper powers work the way they do because their users think they're "supposed to" work that way because they (the users) perceive reality as working in a particular way and their ability affects (some) things in reality in a specific way.
tl:dr it's magic by another name.
My opinion of Touma's power is that he's able to impose his perception of reality onto anything he touches. It's just unfortunate for espers and mages that his reality is one in which magic and esper powers don't exist and therefore can't affect him.
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Old 2010-03-18, 21:44   Link #32
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tl:dr it's magic by another name.
Common misunderstanding, but that's not how magic work in this story.

They don't exactly wrap reality the way Esper supposedly do. They borrow powers and use them in formulas written with the laws of magic in mind. They don't change reality, they just play by a different set of rules.

(Yes, I remember Aureolus Izzard. There was something that the anime failed to mention- he was in fact writing an original grimoire.)

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My opinion of Touma's power is that he's able to impose his perception of reality onto anything he touches. It's just unfortunate for espers and mages that his reality is one in which magic and esper powers don't exist and therefore can't affect him.
That wouldn't work anymore because we know that Imagine Breaker isn't an Esper power to begin with.
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Old 2010-03-18, 22:01   Link #33
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Does this sort of discussion really belong in the scientific theories thread? There's really no scientific speculation needed for magic or Touma's abilities or even the personal reality aspects of the series, tbh.
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Old 2010-03-18, 23:20   Link #34
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It's the closest thing we have for metafictional science...

Can we discuss the kind of non-ESPer tech here? I really want to iron it out with you guys how Heavy Weapon and that hijacked superfighter works.
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Old 2010-03-19, 00:12   Link #35
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kwantum0, teleportation in the Index-verse works more like hyperspace/slipspace jumps. Objects using this method do not experience the relativistic effects of FTL travel, as they are still traveling at subliminal speeds inside slipspace. Basically, it's like taking a shortcut through dimensions. An excerpt from the link:
Quote:
Slipspace can be thought of as our detectable universe (which, technically, it is) but with a greater number of dimensions. Our plane of existence is thought to have four dimensions (up-down, front-back, side-to-side and time), but Slipspace is an eleven-dimensional spacetime. Slipspace is currently theorized as a "tangle" of our plane's dimensions, rather like taking the classic "flat sheet" used to represent gravity and crumpling it up into a ball, thereby creating extra dimensions and shorter spaces between points. The slipstream also possesses different laws of physics than our "normal" universe, although some basic ones, such as energy transfer and momentum, remain the same.
I find this highly relevant since Index-verse teleportation makes use of the theoretical 11th dimension, which is among the bundle of seven dimensions which make up slipstream space.

On Imagine Breaker (IB):
Remember the Omnipotence Paradox? The classic version of this goes:
Could [an omnipotent being] create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?
Yes, I'm thinking that maybe, the God in Index-verse created this stone, and IB is a piece of it (piece, because obviously it's not powerful enough by itself yet, given how it takes time to erase extremely large or constantly regenerating supernatural phenomenon). God is a supernatural phenomenon, thus he cannot possibly lift the stone (IB) by himself, since it negates him and his powers.
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Old 2010-03-19, 00:47   Link #36
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Can we discuss the kind of non-ESPer tech here? I really want to iron it out with you guys how Heavy Weapon and that hijacked superfighter works.
Added the word, "technologies" in the thread title. Go nuts!
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Old 2010-03-19, 00:56   Link #37
Miraluka
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On Imagine Breaker (IB):
Remember the Omnipotence Paradox? The classic version of this goes:
Could [an omnipotent being] create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?
Yes, I'm thinking that maybe, the God in Index-verse created this stone, and IB is a piece of it (piece, because obviously it's not powerful enough by itself yet, given how it takes time to erase extremely large or constantly regenerating supernatural phenomenon). God is a supernatural phenomenon, thus he cannot possibly lift the stone (IB) by himself, since it negates him and his powers.
Touma was called by Fiamma, "Holy Stone" and Terra said that his powers are not on his full potential yet. With that he even can stop rockslides without being imbued by magic or esp.
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Old 2010-03-19, 01:26   Link #38
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I confess, this is the first time I've heard of this paradox, but interestingly enough it sort of fits. If you look at it like this,

"The being can either create a stone which it cannot lift, or it cannot create a stone which it cannot lift. If the being can create a stone that it cannot lift, then it seems that it can cease to be omnipotent. If the being cannot create a stone which it cannot lift, then it seems it is already not omnipotent."

Either way, the 'stone' destroyed the illusion of Omnipotence, or that it's proof of the existence of something that was once Omnipotent. This really fits into the contexts of the toaruverse.


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Added the word, "technologies" in the thread title. Go nuts!
At this rate, you might as well include magic.

I know I know, some of you guys are about to complain, but the magic in toaruverse is not the same as just pull stuff out of your arse. Alot of background information comes from real-life historical individuals, events, and artifacts... Just added a little storywritting twist. Many of these are quite fascinating to read about. So yes, you can think about it as a history and literature lesson, in addition to math and science.
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Old 2010-03-19, 02:37   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I know I know, some of you guys are about to complain, but the magic in toaruverse is not the same as just pull stuff out of your arse. Alot of background information comes from real-life historical individuals, events, and artifacts... Just added a little storywritting twist. Many of these are quite fascinating to read about. So yes, you can think about it as a history and literature lesson, in addition to math and science.
I've never actually considered the to aru magic to be actual 'magic'. I work a lot with quantum information systems, and relate the magical abilities in the to aru world to be more like symbol manipulation. This gets into a whole bunch of Meta arguments and stuff like that. More interesting though, is how magic operates through ignorance of what's going on, similar to not observing quantum systems. The actual manipulation of reality is one step removed from understanding through the language and geometry. There are really weird quantum effects that can be utilized with unobserved systems: superposition, entanglement, tunneling, (and then a bunch to do with information). So when I am watching an episode which uses magic, I just imagine them manipulating meta-quantum phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block
kwantum0, teleportation in the Index-verse works more like hyperspace/slipspace jumps. Objects using this method do not experience the relativistic effects of FTL travel, as they are still traveling at subliminal speeds inside slipspace.
Yeah, from watching Kuroko in the anime, i guessed that she was not traveling FTL (she takes so damn long). The idea of extradimensions acting as slipspace makes sense to me, and can explain teleportation, but can you tell me that in the entire pantheon of Index abilities there is not a single FTL power? Curse you Kazuma!

The Omnipotence Paradox was a very nice insight. I had known about such an argument, but i complete missed the relation to Touma's ability. (at the same time I don't read much of the manga, so i probably don't know as much as others on this forum). I don't know if you've heard about this, but in information systems, there is something known as the principle of computational equivalence. An implication of this is that there is a threshold of maximum complexity that a system can obtain. We can imagine Touma's ability as being above this limit. Something which is slightly more complex than the highest possible complexity. This would make the mechanism of his ability virtually unknowable, and also have the nice side effect of being able to absorb entropy (since it would have a negative entropic value) aka. other abilities and or powers. Actually, since we can assume it to be permanent, it would be more like a topological defect in reality.
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Old 2010-03-19, 09:17   Link #40
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1. Do these three teleportation abilities work in the same way?
- Teleportation
- Move point
- Kill point (used by Saraku, Operative of MEMBER)

I think it's strange that the author didn't mix these threes into one Teleportation ability... If there are more teleportation ability appear, I think it will be "Switch Point" (Switch the position of the user and the target)
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