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Old 2010-03-21, 13:17   Link #6241
alu546
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I just decided to catch up on the Hayate manga after having it on hiatus for a few years, actually having left it right before the introduction of Athena. As of now I have cleared the end of the world arc(187ish), and I would like to offer up my own personal view having read the event back to back vs reading them over the course of a few years plus a bit of speculative opinion ill be using when viewing the current events descibed here.


First a little hhistory, Ive been using this thread to spoil myself since the end of the world arc, so eh.

Anyway, I have found that the events described here are never nearly as cut and dried as what is descibed here. For instance, the end of the world arc was not nearly as groundbreaking as I was lead to believe, although I do think it was a touching story in and of itself, however judging from the end of the arc and even with taking these events with a grain of salt the arc seems to have totally shifted the foundation of the story. Like I imagine one or two of you have previously stated, its like the author went on a wild tangent, and went in a completely new direction with his story right in the middle of it.

Its a complaint that goes beyond shipping wars. Athena is a good character in her own right, but I feel she completely deserved her own story instead of the authors attempt to cram EVERY STORY HE HAS EVER CAME UP WITH into one and then insering her so late in the manga in order to take the lead as the main love interest. If and when that is tranlated to anime, I dont think itll go over well with the audience either.

So Ill be suspending my disbelief for now when taking these events into account. As I catch up Ill post further opinion if anyone finds it interesting.
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Old 2010-03-21, 13:43   Link #6242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alu546 View Post
....I feel she completely deserved her own story instead of the authors attempt to cram EVERY STORY HE HAS EVER CAME UP WITH into one and then insering her so late in the manga in order to take the lead as the main love interest.
Athena was created by and for this story alone as she was the intended to be the female lead. Nagi's character was derived from Athena, and they were also intended to be the same character. I guess Athena was too capable and independent as a mistress to give the butler time to shine.
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Old 2010-03-21, 13:59   Link #6243
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Athena was created by and for this story alone as she was the intended to be the female lead. Nagi's character was derived from Athena, and they were also intended to be the same character. I guess Athena was too capable and independent as a mistress to give the butler time to shine.
Uh, no, Mr. Did-Not-Do-The-Research, Athena's story was originally some other manga called 'Royal Garden', but no one liked it enough for it to become a series so Hata shoehorned it into HnG.
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:02   Link #6244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
her saying "So that little witch is the reason for his twisted mentality" back when Hayate explained to them about how he cant get a girlfriend if he isnt financially reliable.

I really dont understand why such a line which was obviously meant as a joke almost 100 chapters before Athena enters the picture keeps being brought up by people when they try to make arguments against Athena and Hayate's relationship...oh well I guess digging through anything is valid in these things
Actually, I'm referring to the line in the current arc, when Hina finds out that Athena is the one who taught him that. It's just a throwaway line when it's said, but significantly less when it's not taken back after she realizes that this is the girl Hayate 'loves'.

It's notably right after his 'confession', which I am amused I can use the exact same wording, and I don't think there's any question about my feelings for her.

Given that we're told that in the hands of the inexperienced, the sword the inexperienced one is holding is the more dangerous, by Hina even, I don't think it matters what Athena can do with a sword. Hayate hasn't handled a sword most likely before this, but he's trained with a real sword?
We're shown that many of the materials for making a bamboo sword exist in the garden, so saying that Athena can only summon real swords is rather immaterial.

Are we forgetting that Athena kicked Hayate to teach him other lessons and when he was complaining that it hurt he was essentially told 'quit crying you baby'?
This is on top of the sword fighting training.
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:07   Link #6245
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
Uh, no, Mr. Did-Not-Do-The-Research, Athena's story was originally some other manga called 'Royal Garden', but no one liked it enough for it to become a series so Hata shoehorned it into HnG.
Yes, did you?
The intended to be main characters in the "Royal Garden" were Hayate and Athena (the very same characters right now). The title "Royal Garden" was changed to "Hayate to Gotoku," not a different manga.
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:51   Link #6246
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Actually, from what I've heard, Royal Garden wasn't going to have a harem. It was just a mistress and her butler, but since harems sell well, and tunderes were very popular, they decided to make some changes.

I think, in the end, sales levels for these volumes will have the final say on whether the more serious storyline would have been a good idea or not (well, back then it may have been different though). It's worked for Negima fairly well.
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:57   Link #6247
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Are we forgetting that Athena kicked Hayate to teach him other lessons and when he was complaining that it hurt he was essentially told 'quit crying you baby'?
This is on top of the sword fighting training.
you would never survive boot camp
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:05   Link #6248
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you would never survive boot camp
So you're saying a six-year-old would be able to?
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:24   Link #6249
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Given that we're told that in the hands of the inexperienced, the sword the inexperienced one is holding is the more dangerous, by Hina even, I don't think it matters what Athena can do with a sword. Hayate hasn't handled a sword most likely before this, but he's trained with a real sword?
We're shown that many of the materials for making a bamboo sword exist in the garden, so saying that Athena can only summon real swords is rather immaterial..
Inexperienced sword holders are dangerous for others because they have no control and hit randomly. And as you can see, Athena had no problem dealing with that fact.

When I said Athena could only summon real swords, I wasn't denying Athena that could train Hayate with plastic swords or paper sword; you know, for safety purposes. But those swords are not neccessary if the teacher is highly skilled, and Athena was confident that she will bring harm to neither Hayate or herself. That's that.

The 6 years old Hayate could probably beat the crap out of any kendo students under Hina; you know, those guys with bamboo swords. That makes me want to see Nagi train under Athena for a year. Nagi vs Hina. =D


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Are we forgetting that Athena kicked Hayate to teach him other lessons and when he was complaining that it hurt he was essentially told 'quit crying you baby'?
This is on top of the sword fighting training.
I want to see Athena gives him some more kicking.
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:25   Link #6250
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
So you're saying a six-year-old would be able to?
you'd be surprised, at how fast a kids can get used to things as they are small...but when all arguments fail we can always fall back to the old point...manga, the beacon of reality
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:27   Link #6251
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I honestly don't see why you guys are so eager about keeping up this discussion, when you guys know you won't change the other person's opinion in the end. It's just a meaningless discussion, in my opinion, and it won't change anything that has happened so far.

Why not change the discussion into what we expect from the new arcs? Will things actually go back to the way they used to be? Nagi no longer has her fortune, and that should change many things. To begin with, they'll have to find a new place to live. They will no longer be able to go to Hakuō (unless Athena and/or Hina can do anything about it), and may start attending to the public school (which may mean more focus for Ayumu). One way or the other, I'm expecting a major focus on Nagi. What I'm wondering is if Maria will get any important focus, considering she's been mostly turned into a gag character. There are still some mysteries about her, but I wonder if, in the end, they'll turn out to be relevant.

Hopefully, I'm wrong on the major focus on Nagi, and many other characters will receive important focus as well, and they'll also move with the plot.
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:28   Link #6252
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at this point I dont care about any character getting developed that isnt named Maria
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:38   Link #6253
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What about Klauss and Tama?
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:38   Link #6254
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If a Maria arc appears, she may actually could pull it off. What a twist will that be since she has been left out like forever...
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:49   Link #6255
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That's my point, the mysteries about her are still there, but she's been made into a gag character so much, that I wonder if something serious can be done with her.

She could always be Midas' daughter, who knows?
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:50   Link #6256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Yes, did you?
The intended to be main characters in the "Royal Garden" were Hayate and Athena (the very same characters right now). The title "Royal Garden" was changed to "Hayate to Gotoku," not a different manga.
That is partially true, but I remember a few years ago that Hata also said this was originally supposed to be about Hinagiku, but it ended up being to serious a story to quuualify as Shonen. So using that as my most clear(frooom my memory) example, I go back to my previous statement. It feels like he is cramming every story he has ever written into one. It doesnt matter what it was at the conceptual stage, the point is to bring her in so late is foring me to suspend disbelief, as opposed to the fondness I wouldve felt fo her had I known who she was in the previous 16 volumes. This is supposed to be HnG, not Royal Garden. Anyway, I probably wont catch up all the way until tomorrow.
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Old 2010-03-21, 16:10   Link #6257
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That is partially true, but I remember a few years ago that Hata also said this was originally supposed to be about Hinagiku, but it ended up being to serious a story to quuualify as Shonen. So using that as my most clear(frooom my memory) example, I go back to my previous statement. It feels like he is cramming every story he has ever written into one. It doesnt matter what it was at the conceptual stage, the point is to bring her in so late is foring me to suspend disbelief, as opposed to the fondness I wouldve felt fo her had I known who she was in the previous 16 volumes. This is supposed to be HnG, not Royal Garden. Anyway, I probably wont catch up all the way until tomorrow.
The Katsuri sisters had a different story for them with their debts (which took place 10 years before HnG time-line wise) but it failed, and Hata recycled the characters as he always does and put them in HnG.

The Royal Garden was the original plan of HnG with some changes so you can't really classify them as two different manga. Introducing a character so late was a risky move done by Hata, but he pulled it off beautiful, I think. I have no complaints.
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Old 2010-03-21, 16:15   Link #6258
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quuualify
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Originally Posted by alu546 View Post
frooom
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at this point I dont care about any character getting developed that isnt named Maria
So if another character named 'Maria' showed up, you'd care?

Yeah, anyway, I suspect the next arc will focus on what Nagi's gonna do now her fortune's gone, or if it's even gone at all, or whatever.
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Old 2010-03-21, 16:17   Link #6259
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That I agree with. It doesn't matter what the story was at the conceptual stage, what matters is what actually was published. Take Sailor Moon for example, where Naoko Takeuchi originally created Sailor V before Sailor Moon. Many of Usagi's traits were taken from the original Minako, just as how Nagi could possibly be seen as an expy of Royal Garden's Athena. Although Takeuchi later inserted her into Sailor Moon, Minako was no longer the female lead, and her character developed differently from Usagi.

Hata, on the other hand, seems to be trying to change HnG to fit his original story as a form of vindication for his earlier works. I felt as though I was reading a completely different manga for the last few chapters of HnG, with a Mary-Sue thrown at me. I don't buy it at all.
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Old 2010-03-21, 16:21   Link #6260
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Yeah, anyway, I suspect the next arc will focus on what Nagi's gonna do now her fortune's gone, or if it's even gone at all, or whatever.
I'd really love it if some genre-savvy character showed up and pointed out that Hayate filled the former requirements for the inheritance, thus giving a somewhat plausible excuse to the attacks against him, and him willing it back to Nagi. Thus ending the debate, returning life to normal and once again stating his devotion to Nagi all in one fell swoop.
Causing Nagi to have a debt to repay Hayate for as well
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