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Old 2010-03-21, 17:15   Link #261
Alchemist007
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If he is Obito, I want to see how he went from "BEST FRIEND KAKASHI" to "JYUUBISEX" mode.
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Old 2010-03-21, 18:20   Link #262
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Obito and Kakashi were friends for all of maybe 4 hours.
I like to compare their relationship to that of Naruto and Sasuke except its a lot more realistic.
Also I guess Madara and Kakashi are rivals now since Kakashi singled him out after Naruto singled out Sasuke.
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Old 2010-03-21, 19:59   Link #263
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i hope its not obito....only because it would kinda cheapen the character, least to me. because then it would show that obito survived and grew up.

i rather his name be in the death stone as a honor, not just because they assumed he died.

damn you kimish...why must you treat us this way by making kakashi grow by seeing his old friend grown up as madara......least it feels its going that way because of the picture evidence shown above.
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Old 2010-03-21, 21:26   Link #264
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People have been saying Tobi=Obito probably since Tobi was first introduced. The comparison was mainly based on the name similarity and the hair style. But, since then we have new evidence that adds credibility to this theory

- The power of Tobi's Sharingan is similar to Kakashi's Kamui
- Tobi says that Kakashi's Kamui won't work on him
- Tobi did not have a right arm, it was manufactured by Zetsu
- Minato told Naruto that the masked ninja (Tobi) was able to see through his moves
- Although the right side of Tobi's face looks wrinkled, the left side of his face and his overall frame looks youthful
- Even while knowing that Tobi=Madara, Zetsu still refers to him as Tobi and calls him a good boy.

If Tobi were created by Zetsu out of a fusion of old Madara with the half-dead remains of Obito, it could explain all of these things.

Why wouldn't Sasuke's programmed Amaterasu react to Kakashi's Sharingan? There are a few different ways to explain this.

1. Kishimoto was only using the programmed Amaterasu as a way of delaying Madara/Obito's unmasking, and didn't care to think about what would happen if Sasuke saw Kakashi's Sharingan.
2. Only the right eye of Madara can trigger the Amaterasu. It won't work if Sasuke sees the left eye or if it's implanted in a different person.
3. Madara is using Obito's body, but the Sharingan that we see is not Obito's, but rather Madara's EMS.

Other indications that Tobi isn't just Old Madara under that mask
-We already know that Tobi=Madara=former Mizukage, so why does he still have his mask on? It suggests that if he took off his mask, we would recognize Tobi as someone we've met before
-We also know what Madara's EMS looks like, so why haven't we seen Tobi's MS? Is it because we would be able to identify the Sharingan from its Mangekyou shape?
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Old 2010-03-21, 22:41   Link #265
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What I want to know is, wtf is Zetsu anyways.
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Old 2010-03-21, 23:58   Link #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- The power of Tobi's Sharingan is similar to Kakashi's Kamui
Itachi and Sasuke's Amaterasu appear the same...does that mean they are the same person?

The MS seems to share the same abilities, so why couldn't Kakashi's technique simply be a deviation of another MS technique if not the actual technique only weaker (ala Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Tobi says that Kakashi's Kamui won't work on him
Kamui transports crap elsewhere; Madara can transport himself anywhere at any time. So, why would Madara fear being transported elsewhere when he can just warp himself back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Tobi did not have a right arm, it was manufactured by Zetsu
Replicating an arm? Okay, that is feasible. Replicating a Sharingan? That seems a bit extensive, don't you think? Besides, as I said previously, we now know that Madara has dozens, if not hundreds of Sharingans, so why would he stick with Obito's old raggedy Sharingan when he could simply switch to a different eye (which would also negate Itachi's sealed Amaterasu). Hell, even if he did take Obito's body originally, why wouldn't he have switched a body ages ago, especially considering all the Uchiha he personally killed over the years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Minato told Naruto that the masked ninja (Tobi) was able to see through his moves
I always found this line of thought to be a bit...lacking...Considering that even Kakashi did not know of the technique when he went into battle with Minato (Kakashi was given the special kunai as a present, and he had no idea what it did), why would Obito?

Besides, when we were first introduced to the Sharingan way back in the first chapters, the eye was described as having the ability to "read and defeat" all techniques. So, why would Hiraishin be any different? Tobi being able to "defeat" (or at least "read") the Hiraishin need have nothing to do with Obito at all; hell, Madara could have simply seen the technique in action previous to their "fight" and learned how to defeat it then (much the same as Haku came up with the easiest and most efficient way to defeat the Sharingan after only seeing the dojutsu once).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Although the right side of Tobi's face looks wrinkled, the left side of his face and his overall frame looks youthful
Considering that we haven't actually seen the left side of his face yet (and the brief glimpses of a profile offer nothing conclusive), I have to wonder where you are getting this info...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
- Even while knowing that Tobi=Madara, Zetsu still refers to him as Tobi and calls him a good boy.
Zetsu and Madara do have a weird relationship that needs much explanation...that need have nothing to do with Obito, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Why wouldn't Sasuke's programmed Amaterasu react to Kakashi's Sharingan? There are a few different ways to explain this.

1. Kishimoto was only using the programmed Amaterasu as a way of delaying Madara/Obito's unmasking, and didn't care to think about what would happen if Sasuke saw Kakashi's Sharingan.
So, your evidence is that Kishimoto is a hack sometimes? Well, I can't argue with that I guess...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
2. Only the right eye of Madara can trigger the Amaterasu. It won't work if Sasuke sees the left eye or if it's implanted in a different person.
This seems extremely complicated for what is supposed to be a failsafe.

But, I do recognize that if Kishimoto were to pull the Madara = Obito storyline, this would probably be a pivotal detail...

Still, it begs the question, once again, as to why Madara is using a body (or an eye) that has this weakness. We've seen him change arms, so why not Sharingans? Especially considering how many he has...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
3. Madara is using Obito's body, but the Sharingan that we see is not Obito's, but rather Madara's EMS.
In which case, you just disproved all of your arguments concerning Kakashi's Kamui being similar to Madara's technique since they both came from Obito's eye. In which case, there need be no connection with Obito at all...

That being said, of all of the options in which Obito is used, this is one I actually wouldn't mind - the Obito body simply becomes a tool for Madara's eye(s), consequently Obito's crushed Sharingan becomes unimportant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
-We already know that Tobi=Madara=former Mizukage, so why does he still have his mask on? It suggests that if he took off his mask, we would recognize Tobi as someone we've met before
-We also know what Madara's EMS looks like, so why haven't we seen Tobi's MS? Is it because we would be able to identify the Sharingan from its Mangekyou shape?
All good questions, but none necessarily need Obito as their answer (i.e. other answers exist or could exist)...
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Old 2010-03-22, 00:21   Link #267
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maybe madara did use obito's body along with his eyes a ninja of his caliber probably knows a body replacement jutsu like orochimaru and madara would be around 100 at the time i would think he would his body would be wastin away so using zetsu would help the madara transfer the body if need be it has to be alot to this along with why sasuke ms was activated due to the madara right eye and not kakashi's left eye i can honestly say i hope its obito's body why would he hide behind a mask and only have one eye exposed it has to be more than him just being madara
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Old 2010-03-22, 00:30   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Miles54321 View Post

I really think Kishi put in Kakashi Gaiden for an important reason, look at where it appeared in the anime also, Literally just before Konoha ninjas met Madara, when he was trying to stall them while sasuke was fighting itatchi
yeah... Im with you man!!

they put the kakashi gaiden episode where they met Madara.....when its supposed to be animated before the Naruto Shippuden...


also werent you guys wondering why Kishimoto is still hiding Tobi's face when we already know what Madara's Face look like???
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Old 2010-03-22, 01:32   Link #269
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still got nothing better to do, so...

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Originally Posted by antjluc View Post
it has to be more than him just being madara
Well, in the end, it is only Madara (or at least there is no real reason to believe he isn't Madara), no matter what revelations occur.

That being said, of course there will be some reason for Madara to have continued wearing the mask. But, if Madara is using another body, we have to ask ourselves this: Which would be better for the story, Madara having Obito's body; or Madara having some other well known person's body, someone that has actually affected the entire series? Specifically, Madara having Obito's body really doesn't do anything but give Kakashi a 'wtf' moment, but considering that Kakashi doesn't actually matter to the story anymore (there's no way he could beat Naruto or Sasuke, let alone Madara), such a reveal would create zero benefit for the current storyline. Consequently, Madara having Obito's body doesn't seem to actually matter. But, if the body Madara possessed was some key figure that had interacted with a large amount of the other characters (such as Hanzou); or if they had a direct relation to one of the main characters (Sasuke's father? Naruto's...grandfather ?); or if the body was even more important (Rikudou?), then the whole "Madara has X's body" would be a truly relevant story choice. Otherwise, I'm going to stick to the current assumption that Madara is simply Madara, but he has a few minor revelations before the end...

Last edited by james0246; 2010-03-22 at 01:50.
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Old 2010-03-22, 01:39   Link #270
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
(Sasuke's father? Naruto's...grandfather ?); .
now that you mention it... I wonder if naruto's grandfather is still alive...

still... I really want to see what tobi really look like.....

cause I still have doubts of him being madara....
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Old 2010-03-22, 01:41   Link #271
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If Zetsu can copy everyone he touched, then guess how many events in manga could have been manipulated by Zetsu, hell thats one hell of a jutsu.
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Old 2010-03-22, 01:49   Link #272
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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
If Zetsu can copy everyone he touched, then guess how many events in manga could have been manipulated by Zetsu, hell thats one hell of a jutsu.
Yeah, a lot of Zetsu's powers just scream "plot hole". There are so many events that Zetsu could have been a part of, that he could have influenced...it's somewhat interesting, but at the same time now I will always wonder why Zetsu didn't save all of the Akatsuki like he did with Kisame, especially considering that Zetsu seems to be able to split himself many times...
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Old 2010-03-22, 01:56   Link #273
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Yeah, a lot of Zetsu's powers just scream "plot hole". There are so many events that Zetsu could have been a part of, that he could have influenced...it's somewhat interesting, but at the same time now I will always wonder why Zetsu didn't save all of the Akatsuki like he did with Kisame, especially considering that Zetsu seems to be able to split himself many times...
Wasn't the whole point that this was planned? The other fights were not planned.
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Old 2010-03-22, 02:05   Link #274
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^This being a plan doesn't change the fact that Zetsu now has the power to seemingly create many "clones" of himself, all of which can mimic other shinobi exactly for a short period of time. And, it stands to reason that Zetsu, since he seems to be everywhere, could have replaced several of the Akatsuki during their battles. Consequently, the question of why he didn't is going to be asked. That being said, I will withdraw my "plot hole" description, since there is plenty of time for Kishimoto to properly explain Zetsu's powers.
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Old 2010-03-22, 02:29   Link #275
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Wasn't the whole point that this was planned? The other fights were not planned.
Well, they might not have been planned, but I think the main point was that none of the members of Akatsuki never imagined that they would LOSE.

....Hell, by all accounts most of the victories by the Konoha ninja have been due to lucky matchups (or unlucky, if you're considering Akatsuki).

Just to briefly illustrate stuff I'm sure we all know well by this point:
Sasori vs. Sakura/Chiyo (Sasori loses his advantage of poison by the 2 medical kunoichi)
Hidan vs. Shikamaru (Hidan is an idiot, and too slow to dodge Shikamaru's well-planned attacks besides)
Kakuzu vs. Kakashi/Naruto (Kakashi's Raikiri + Naruto's Fuuton Shuriken = instant win... experience or not, Kakuzu was screwed)
Deidara vs. Sasuke (Lightning > Earth, end of story. Plus Sasuke's Sharingan and genjutsu not to mention Kishi is gay for Sasuke.)
Itachi vs. Sasuke (Itachi's disease + not wanting to kill Sasuke + Kishi is gay for Sasuke = Itachi loses.)
Pain vs. Naruto (...HEART! Go Planet! By your powers combined-----ahem, wrong show. But you know what I mean.)
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Old 2010-03-22, 05:58   Link #276
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Lol at James's boredom.

Don't you have other anime to watch?
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Old 2010-03-22, 10:46   Link #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Itachi and Sasuke's Amaterasu appear the same...does that mean they are the same person?
Specious analogy, since no one is suggesting that Kakashi and Tobi are the same person. But if we were to make the same type of comparison, we would infer from Sasuke's first use of Amaterasu that there was some connection between Sasuke's eye and Itachi's MS. And we would be correct.

Quote:
The MS seems to share the same abilities, so why couldn't Kakashi's technique simply be a deviation of another MS technique if not the actual technique only weaker (ala Sasuke’s Tsukuyomi)?
Possible. Although, I'd say the similarities between Kakashi's Kamui and Sasuke's Tsukiyomi are weaker.

Quote:
Kamui transports crap elsewhere; Madara can transport himself anywhere at any time. So, why would Madara fear being transported elsewhere when he can just warp himself back?
I don't know, but Kakashi was ready to use Kamui against Madara anyway. So, at least he had reason to believe that it might work until Madara shot down the idea.

Quote:
Replicating an arm? Okay, that is feasible. Replicating a Sharingan? That seems a bit extensive, don't you think?
I don't think Zetsu replicated a Sharingan.

Quote:
Besides, as I said previously, we now know that Madara has dozens, if not hundreds of Sharingans, so why would he stick with Obito's old raggedy Sharingan when he could simply switch to a different eye (which would also negate Itachi's sealed Amaterasu). Hell, even if he did take Obito's body originally, why wouldn't he have switched a body ages ago, especially considering all the Uchiha he personally killed over the years?
Why would he switch Sharingans if the one he uses now has a kick-ass warping/phasing ability? Or why would he switch bodies if the one he uses now works just fine?



Quote:
I always found this line of thought to be a bit...lacking...Considering that even Kakashi did not know of the technique when he went into battle with Minato (Kakashi was given the special kunai as a present, and he had no idea what it did), why would Obito?
It's not that Obito had to know the secret behind Hiraishin at that moment in time, but that he was close to Minato and knew about his abilities. In Naruto, foreknowledge of someone's techs can make or break a battle.


Quote:
Considering that we haven't actually seen the left side of his face yet (and the brief glimpses of a profile offer nothing conclusive), I have to wonder where you are getting this info...
Pictures from the manga that someone even posted earlier. Of course we haven't seen the entire left side of his face, or else this wouldn't be speculation, we'd know what he looks like...

Quote:
Zetsu and Madara do have a weird relationship that needs much explanation...that need have nothing to do with Obito, though...
Yes, but Madara being in Obito's body would explain this behavior.

Quote:
So, your evidence is that Kishimoto is a hack sometimes? Well, I can't argue with that I guess...
Not that he is a hack, but that he's only human and can make mistakes. And I'm not trying to use it as evidence of something, I'm saying that it's a possibility for why Sasuke's Amaterasu wouldn't be triggered by the same Sharingan in different people.

Quote:
This seems extremely complicated for what is supposed to be a failsafe.
Itachi's entire plan was overly complicated to begin with. But actually, what's so complicated about it? Itachi sees Madara's right eye, and that particular eye becomes the trigger.

Quote:
Still, it begs the question, once again, as to why Madara is using a body (or an eye) that has this weakness. We've seen him change arms, so why not Sharingans? Especially considering how many he has...
It could be that this Sharingan has a unique ability. But even if he could swap Sharingans, it not so difficult to wear a mask. However, I don't think Madara's motivation is important here. It's Kishimoto that wants to keep Madara masked for the purposes of an important plot revelation, which, I suspect, matters to Kakashi's storyline.

Quote:
In which case, you just disproved all of your arguments concerning Kakashi's Kamui being similar to Madara's technique since they both came from Obito's eye. In which case, there need be no connection with Obito at all...
Firstly, I'm not trying to prove anything. Nothing can be proved because Kishimoto can just change his mind one day on a whim and write or retcon (Kisame e.g.) anything he wants. Secondly, I at least recognize that a possible explanation for why Sasuke's programmed Amaterasu wouldn't react to Kakashi's eye is because Madara is not using Obito's eye. But that does nothing to disprove the idea that Madara is using Obito's body.

Quote:
All good questions, but none necessarily need Obito as their answer (i.e. other answers exist or could exist)...
For Madara to keep his mask on this long, it has to have some significance. Look at Danzo. Okay, he didn't turn out to be Madara under those bandages, but it wasn't the simple answer either. It you apply Occam's Razor, you'd suspect that Danzo would just have a damaged eye and mangled arm underneath those bandages. But no. Instead, we find Shisui's Sharingan, 10 other Sharingan implanted into the arm, and Hashirama's face! With this in mind, I'd say there's no way Tobi will take off his mask and it will just be old wrinkly Madara underneath. There has to be some kind of revelation that accompanies the unmasking. What other Sharingan are there? If it's not Obito's eye or body, then the list is pretty short. Tobi/Madara was around before the Uchiha massacre, so we can cross off Fugaku.

The way I look at it is that we now have several pieces of info which suggest a Madara-Obito connection. If each piece offers even a 10% chance that the connection exists, then it adds up to something substantial, on the order of a 50% chance.

Last edited by Hiking_Bear; 2010-03-22 at 11:02.
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Old 2010-03-22, 11:32   Link #278
james0246
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
But actually, what's so complicated about it? Itachi sees Madara's right eye, and that particular eye becomes the trigger.
Because designing a failsafe to work with, say a eye design, seems far more realistic than adding extra commands like 'only recognize the right eye'. I mean, from an observational perspective, there is no way for someone to just look at 2 eyes and tell if they are from the left or right eye socket, and even when they are in a person's head, there are often few if any noticeable distinctions between the 2 eyes. Additionally, what if Madara has a left eye (something Itachi need not necessarily know)? What was then to stop Madara from simply closing his right eye when he talked to Sasuke? No, it seems more likely (or at least more logical) that the failsafe was designed to interact with Madara's Sharingan/MS, rather than its specific placement in Madara's skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Firstly, I'm not trying to prove anything.
On that, we are the same. I am merely poking holes in other's theories because I am bored. I honestly could care less if Madara is Obito...though, I will admit I would find such a revelation a little stupid, but I also wouldn't care that much .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
For Madara to keep his mask on this long, it has to have some significance. Look at Danzo. Okay, he didn't turn out to be Madara under those bandages, but it wasn't the simple answer either. It you apply Occam's Razor, you'd suspect that Danzo would just have a damaged eye and mangled arm underneath those bandages. But no. Instead, we find Shisui's Sharingan, 10 other Sharingan implanted into the arm, and Hashirama's face!
Yes, all interesting revelations, and I am sure Madara will probably have an equally impressive (or at least surprising) reveal. But Obito is not surprising, nor is it impressive, nor is it actually relevant to the story. Revealing Madara as Obito offers nothing to the plot, and only minimal development for Kakashi (it's not like Kakashi can confront and defeat the monster masquerading in his former friend's body, and Naruto and Sasuke could care less that Madara is inside of Obito's body, so there would be no real significance to Madara having Obito's body).

Hell, for all we know, Madara could be combining the EMS and Rinnegan in his body...that would be a sufficient reveal, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
With this in mind, I'd say there's no way Tobi will take off his mask and it will just be old wrinkly Madara underneath. There has to be some kind of revelation that accompanies the unmasking.
Agreed, but as I mentioned, Obito wouldn't really matter enough to be kept secret so long.

To put it another way, Kakashi and Tsunade have hidden the appearance the entire series, with only minor glimpses being shown, but I do not think anyone is expecting any real revelation when their full appearance is actually shown. True, Madara's appearance could be more important than either Kakashi or Tsunade's, but, then again, it's possible it could not be that important...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
What other Sharingan are there? If it's not Obito's eye or body, then the list is pretty short. Tobi/Madara was around before the Uchiha massacre, so we can cross off Fugaku.
Actually, no you can't. If you are arguing that Madara can take other's bodies, and he did take Obito's, then it stands to reason that he still has such a power. Consequently, Fugaku is just as possible an answer as any of the dead Uchiha. For instance, Madara showed specific interest in Shisui's Sharingan, the only known Sharingan with specific powers outside of the average Sharingan's powers. Maybe Madara's interest comes from the fact that he took Shisui's body? Hell, maybe Madara involved himself in the Uchiha massacre simply to acquire Uchiha body parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Lol at James's boredom.

Don't you have other anime to watch?
I'm waiting for the winter series to end (like Sora no Woto, Vampire Bund, Kimi no Todoke and Nodame Cantabile) before I start marathoning the shows. Otherwise, yeah I am a little bored....
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Old 2010-03-22, 13:39   Link #279
yakumo-chan
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actually....

the Tobi-Obito theory is not bad at all..... for me it is actually cool.... i think it will be a good for the story.....

the only reason that it looks bad is because the theory is becoming much more popular this days......

maybe kishi is still thinking right now if he should pull off the Obito theory since its too much popular right now..,, that maybe the reason why Tobi's mask still on....

try to examine this page....

Spoiler for space:


if you focus on the middle page, Kisame says that

"Mizukage...... I mean Madara"

aren't this words suspicious to you guys.....

try to examine on how Kisame said it....

for me.... from what I've understand in this words.., Tobi is 100% Mizukage, but Madara? I dont know... maybe 50%

because from what I have understand in how Kisame said it.., It looks like tobi is disguised as Madara.... as if kisame knows that he is a fake Madara... I dont know for sure though this is only a speculation.... just wanted to share it thanks.....ttt
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Old 2010-03-22, 13:55   Link #280
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I see what your point, but maybe the correction he made to himself was because Madara was no longer the Mizukage, reason why he decided to call him by his name.

And Basicaly that line was made to alert the viewer that Madara on some point in the past was related to Hidden mist.
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