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Old 2010-03-22, 05:28   Link #841
omimon
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lind View Post
Yeah, well, guidebooks and booklets like these normally contain production information and interviews, sketches, designs... stuff like that. One of the Katanagatari supporting books has a map of events, I heard.
So basically it spoils everything?
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Old 2010-03-22, 07:40   Link #842
Daniel Lind
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So basically it spoils everything?
I don't think it has episode guides and descriptions of what actually happens. Just outlines.
Even if it does, no one actually forces you to read it and the books are out anyway so it's hard to spoil anything for those who've read them...
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:04   Link #843
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Also Katanagatari - the best show this season hands down, hilarious, original and great.
What sort of originality do you find in the scriptwriting yelling "OMG LOOK GUISE WE ARE SO SMART WE BREAK THE FOURTH WALL EVERY 30 SECONDS IN THIS AWESOME 20 MINUTE POINTLESS DIALOGUE!" (mostly for episode 2, episode 3 had less of that but it still was yawn-inducing most of the time). Spice and Wolf at least had interesting dialogues, this one's are completely pointless 9 out of 10 times.

seriously the concept coupled with the art was interesting at first but it's growing to be goddamn boring every minute. It's not helped by the terrible decision of making 12 40-minute episodes each spread over a month, either.

Expanding a bit on my opinion of the series, the thing is that it's trying to base itself around character development (so much talk so little action) when there's only one remotely interesting character, Togame. And even she's not that interesting in herself. The hero bloke is as bland as a mentally retarded, son-of-the-jungle character can get. Seriously, if they were trying to pull off witty dialogues or something like that we should have at least got someone remotely interesting (hi Lawrence). The rest of the cast is pointless and even though there are some interesting side-characters (the miko in episode 3) they obviously don't get nearly enough screen time to warrant anything given the "monster of the week" approach of the series.

And don't even get me started on the ninjas.
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:35   Link #844
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
"OMG LOOK GUISE WE ARE SO SMART WE BREAK THE FOURTH WALL EVERY 30 SECONDS IN THIS AWESOME 20 MINUTE POINTLESS DIALOGUE!"
Correction: 40 minutes.

And I'm sure that was only episode 2.

Anyway, it's only really been three episodes. There's already hint of the rather cold blooded nature of Shichika and Togame's guilt.
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:03   Link #845
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Anyway, it's only really been three episodes.
Which is why I insist that the idea of giving us a single episode each month was terrible and whoever came up with it should get fired.

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There's already hint of the rather cold blooded nature of Shichika and Togame's guilt.
It's not "cold-blooded". I'm assuming you're referencing the fact that he said he killed his father. That's not interesting in the least, because as I said, as far as the show's been presenting him he's just a stupid jungle boy. Even if he has a "dark" past the outcome on his development is completely uninteresting.
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:16   Link #846
omimon
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Which is why I insist that the idea of giving us a single episode each month was terrible and whoever came up with it should get fired.



It's not "cold-blooded". I'm assuming you're referencing the fact that he said he killed his father. That's not interesting in the least, because as I said, as far as the show's been presenting him he's just a stupid jungle boy. Even if he has a "dark" past the outcome on his development is completely uninteresting.
Talk about angsty. Anyways, the one episode per month idea is trying to correspond with the fact that the original novels also came out once per month.
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:28   Link #847
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Talk about angsty.
moar like nerdraging amirite

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Anyways, the one episode per month idea is trying to correspond with the fact that the original novels also came out once per month.
Why would anyone think that's a good format for a TV series? Even worse if most of the episodes are to be comprised of dialogue.
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:29   Link #848
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
.....
...as far as the show's been presenting him he's just a stupid jungle boy. .
Blasphemy. Anyone who wants to follow someone after finding out the person wants your help to accomplish his/her goal even though your dad killed his/her dad can be anything but "stupid". I concede at the fact he is a jungle boy.

I love this show, but I also agree the show requires one-of-a-kind audience. We who like this show are definitely special just like our mom told us. Conclusion: WanderingKnight is not special. Kidding!
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:32   Link #849
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Blasphemy. Anyone who wants to follow someone after finding out the person wants your help to accomplish his/her goal even though your dad killed his/her dad can be anything but "stupid". I concede at the fact he is a jungle boy.
still, I believe most people would agree with me when I say that a jungle boy is the worst possible archetype you can choose when trying to base a series on character development and witty dialogues.
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Old 2010-03-22, 15:35   Link #850
monir
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
still, I believe most people would agree with me when I say that a jungle boy is the worst possible archetype you can choose when trying to base a series on character development and witty dialogues.
That I agree without any reservation. That's why few of us wished Shaft would handle any Isio Nisin stories. His stories tend to be dry and too sobering if taking from the context alone.
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Old 2010-03-22, 16:07   Link #851
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What sort of originality do you find in the scriptwriting yelling "OMG LOOK GUISE WE ARE SO SMART WE BREAK THE FOURTH WALL EVERY 30 SECONDS IN THIS AWESOME 20 MINUTE POINTLESS DIALOGUE!" (mostly for episode 2, episode 3 had less of that but it still was yawn-inducing most of the time). Spice and Wolf at least had interesting dialogues, this one's are completely pointless 9 out of 10 times.

seriously the concept coupled with the art was interesting at first but it's growing to be goddamn boring every minute. It's not helped by the terrible decision of making 12 40-minute episodes each spread over a month, either.

Expanding a bit on my opinion of the series, the thing is that it's trying to base itself around character development (so much talk so little action) when there's only one remotely interesting character, Togame. And even she's not that interesting in herself. The hero bloke is as bland as a mentally retarded, son-of-the-jungle character can get. Seriously, if they were trying to pull off witty dialogues or something like that we should have at least got someone remotely interesting (hi Lawrence). The rest of the cast is pointless and even though there are some interesting side-characters (the miko in episode 3) they obviously don't get nearly enough screen time to warrant anything given the "monster of the week" approach of the series.

And don't even get me started on the ninjas.
I can't really believe you found nothing interesting in episode 3. I'd agree with you on episode 2, that there was altogether too much fourth wall referencing, but these last two episodes have made it clear that the 'swords/enemies of the month' are a significant part of the content in this series, and I think each episode (even episode 2) has managed to deliver on that, hasn't it? I disagree that the series trying to base itself solely around continuous development of the main characters when from my perspective, every episode has been very conscious about presenting a complete and interesting story in itself. In episodes 2 and 3, those stories began with the introductions and ended with the deaths of Uneri and Meisai respectively.

Since you said you found the concept initially interesting: in each of the episodes, despite all the time wasted on fourth-wall 'meta' referencing, at least as much dialogue has been devoted to the peculiarities and attributes of the swords themselves. And that basically is the concept of this series, right? A quest to collect 12 individually interesting swords, all presumably held by equally individually interesting wielders. I honestly can't see how anybody intrigued enough by this series' premise to watch it could find episode 3's dialogue, with so much of it exploring the connection between the 1000 formed Sentou Tsurugi and Meisai's empty-hand Sentouryou fighting style, to be 'boring every minute'.

More importantly: given the poignancy of Meisai's death, I can't see how you could really think that this series' opponents are just 'monsters of the month' who are merely stepping stones for the main characters' development. Certainly the writers wouldn't devote so much time crafting Meisai's backstory, and portray her death as the culmination of something like 'fate', if this was truly the case, right? In every episode, I think the side and supporting characters are just as important as the recurring mains themselves. Considering that the original form of each episode was a novel, they almost have to be (while it might be okay for a single anime episode to focus entirely on the development of its main characters, in the case of an entire novel, the antagonists certainly must be enough of an entity in themselves to make the protagonist's triumph over them meaningful, don't you think?). Each episode in and of itself is a complete story; I think that's also enough to make the monthly release rate appropriate.

Rather than seeing every release as an 'episode', maybe it would be more appropriate, in the context of other anime series, to see each episode as an 'arc'. That way you might be able to see the antagonist characters with enough weight in and of themselves (as the big bad of an arc, that is), taking the focus off your issues with Shichika, and also alleviating your issues with the release rate (1 month = 4 episodes usually = 1 arc? Seems pretty reasonable to me.).
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Old 2010-03-22, 16:23   Link #852
Haak
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's not "cold-blooded". I'm assuming you're referencing the fact that he said he killed his father. That's not interesting in the least, because as I said, as far as the show's been presenting him he's just a stupid jungle boy. Even if he has a "dark" past the outcome on his development is completely uninteresting.
It's not that. In fact, I'm not even taking that into account until I've heard the full story. Shichika was totally willing to kill those two robbers even when they were no longer a threat and Togame had to actually explain why he shouldn't. Meisai's death was clearly something sad and something Togame felt remorse for (you could see it from the look on her face when she saw her body), but Shickika simply smiles at her like a dog who's successfully brought the stick back to his owner. The way he calmly took his stance against Togame when they first met and his sister confirming that Shichika would have killed her had she not fallen over. I wouldn't be surprise if had Shichika killed Togame then, he wouldn't have thought much of it. Shichika blatantly stated that he is Togame's sword to Mesei. Swords don't feel remorse. They don't feel anything.

I'm pretty sure Shichika is meant to be a deconstruction of the typical Raised By Wolves character type. Not played straight as you suggest.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:12   Link #853
omimon
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
It's not that. In fact, I'm not even taking that into account until I've heard the full story. Shichika was totally willing to kill those two robbers even when they were no longer a threat and Togame had to actually explain why he shouldn't. Meisai's death was clearly something sad and something Togame felt remorse for (you could see it from the look on her face when she saw her body), but Shickika simply smiles at her like a dog who's successfully brought the stick back to his owner. The way he calmly took his stance against Togame when they first met and his sister confirming that Shichika would have killed her had she not fallen over. I wouldn't be surprise if had Shichika killed Togame then, he wouldn't have thought much of it. Shichika blatantly stated that he is Togame's sword to Mesei. Swords don't feel remorse. They don't feel anything.

I'm pretty sure Shichika is meant to be a deconstruction of the typical Raised By Wolves character type. Not played straight as you suggest.
Who cares if he doesn't cares about the life of others. He is a sword, no more no less.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:36   Link #854
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What sort of originality do you find in the scriptwriting yelling "OMG LOOK GUISE WE ARE SO SMART WE BREAK THE FOURTH WALL EVERY 30 SECONDS IN THIS AWESOME 20 MINUTE POINTLESS DIALOGUE!" (mostly for episode 2, episode 3 had less of that but it still was yawn-inducing most of the time). Spice and Wolf at least had interesting dialogues, this one's are completely pointless 9 out of 10 times.

seriously the concept coupled with the art was interesting at first but it's growing to be goddamn boring every minute. It's not helped by the terrible decision of making 12 40-minute episodes each spread over a month, either.

Expanding a bit on my opinion of the series, the thing is that it's trying to base itself around character development (so much talk so little action) when there's only one remotely interesting character, Togame. And even she's not that interesting in herself. The hero bloke is as bland as a mentally retarded, son-of-the-jungle character can get. Seriously, if they were trying to pull off witty dialogues or something like that we should have at least got someone remotely interesting (hi Lawrence). The rest of the cast is pointless and even though there are some interesting side-characters (the miko in episode 3) they obviously don't get nearly enough screen time to warrant anything given the "monster of the week" approach of the series.

And don't even get me started on the ninjas.
I don't think they were trying for back and forth witty banter, like in Spice and Wolf. It's more the usual boke-and-tsukkomi routine.

But it is, I suppose, about the characters. Not Shichika. Maybe about Togame, long term. Taking it slowly. Mostly, though, it's about the antagonists. Who are those people, holding on to their swords with all they have? What do they hope to accomplish? Maybe that's why the first ninja was so boring. His motivation - money - was so mundane. So lacking in nobility.

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
moar like nerdraging amirite



Why would anyone think that's a good format for a TV series? Even worse if most of the episodes are to be comprised of dialogue.
I actually like the once a month. Good for savoring the eps. Not that I'd have the force of will to resist devouring them as soon as available if they came more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
It's not that. In fact, I'm not even taking that into account until I've heard the full story. Shichika was totally willing to kill those two robbers even when they were no longer a threat and Togame had to actually explain why he shouldn't. Meisai's death was clearly something sad and something Togame felt remorse for (you could see it from the look on her face when she saw her body), but Shickika simply smiles at her like a dog who's successfully brought the stick back to his owner.
Or a cat with a dead sparrow. We feel sorry for the cute sparrow. The cat, though...

Quote:
The way he calmly took his stance against Togame when they first met and his sister confirming that Shichika would have killed her had she not fallen over. I wouldn't be surprise if had Shichika killed Togame then, he wouldn't have thought much of it. Shichika blatantly stated that he is Togame's sword to Mesei. Swords don't feel remorse. They don't feel anything.

I'm pretty sure Shichika is meant to be a deconstruction of the typical Raised By Wolves character type. Not played straight as you suggest.
Interesting point of view. It's true that, despite being nice, Shichika is as unencumbered by society's arbitrary rules as any jungle predator.

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Who cares if he doesn't cares about the life of others. He is a sword, no more no less.
I don't think he's devoid of compassion. Otherwise, why would he have cared about Togame's sob story at all? But yeah, if someone draws a sword against him, he considers it natural to go against that person with deadly force, too. And really, why wouldn't he?
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:02   Link #855
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Who cares if he doesn't cares about the life of others. He is a sword, no more no less.
But as a human being, that means he is broken. As we watch Togame mature, so might we hope that Shichika expands his understanding of things -- a "coming of age" story thread for each of them interwoven. I'd say that's a primary reason his sister wanted him out and about in the world.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:08   Link #856
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WanderingKnight is doing it wrong. If you dislike the main character that much, you drop the show unless you are masochist.
"Jungle boy" isn't that simple and that much of a jungle boy too if you pay attention to what he does and says.

Also it is the best show for me, the least boring and the most funny (even funnier than pure comedies like Hanamaru kindergarten and a show of bakas aka class F). Actually the arguably second best show this season - Durararararararararararara bores me to tears literally. So, Katanagatari doesn't even have a real contender =)

I do agree that all ninjas are unnecessary eccentric so far.

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But as a human being, that means he is broken. As we watch Togame mature, so might we hope that Shichika expands his understanding of things -- a "coming of age" story thread for each of them interwoven. I'd say that's a primary reason his sister wanted him out and about in the world.
He's not broken.... that's other way around, Togame is broken one and I think Shichika will heal her.
Shichika is a bit ignorant and naive but that's good, he wouldn't ended with Togame otherwise. It's obvious.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:41   Link #857
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But it is, I suppose, about the characters. Not Shichika. Maybe about Togame, long term. Taking it slowly. Mostly, though, it's about the antagonists. Who are those people, holding on to their swords with all they have? What do they hope to accomplish? Maybe that's why the first ninja was so boring. His motivation - money - was so mundane. So lacking in nobility.
Actually, I don't think even Koumori was that shallow either. Koumori's issue with Togame was actually personal, despite the money; as a ninja, he had something against Togame's ambition, and the coldness and manipulativeness with which he felt she used other people to achieve it. I found it sort of fascinating really, that the supposed villain hated Togame out of what seemed like moral outrage and a sense of betrayal, whereas the supposed protagonist empathized with Togame's bloody and treacherous ambitions out of a somewhat amoral sense of compassion.

But yes, I agree on the main point--Katanagatari's about the antagonists too.

Quote:
I don't think he's devoid of compassion. Otherwise, why would he have cared about Togame's sob story at all? But yeah, if someone draws a sword against him, he considers it natural to go against that person with deadly force, too. And really, why wouldn't he?
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
But as a human being, that means he is broken. As we watch Togame mature, so might we hope that Shichika expands his understanding of things -- a "coming of age" story thread for each of them interwoven. I'd say that's a primary reason his sister wanted him out and about in the world.
I agree with Anh Minh on this issue as well. Shichika's predisposition to killing is only towards people who threaten his (or Togame's) life. That's how things worked in that feudal era--blades were drawn, and they were used for killing. That Shichika responds to lethal force with lethal force doesn't mean he lacks empathy as a human--after all, else he wouldn't have 'chosen' Togame in the first place. After the battle with Meisai, I am certain that Shichika felt something powerful, despite his later smile for Togame--before Togame came, he was lost in thought, contemplating the blood on his hands--it was a response to the way Meisai had lived her life. I don't think Shichika's smile was a hint of something inhuman, but rather a sign of why he fought in the first place.

Speaking of Meisai: I disagree with this idea that her death was a 'sad' thing. It was a very significant thing, but I don't feel that it was sad. Meisai herself, towards the end of their fight, was contemplating what she had lived and fought for. She was the one most prepared for her own death, and the consequences it represented. That she was killed by Shichika is something I don't think Meisai would ever regret, so I just find it kinda weird that everyone piles on Togame's words and are regretting it for her.

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Also it is the best show for me, the least boring and the most funny (even funnier than pure comedies like Hanamaru kindergarten and a show of bakas aka class F). Actually the arguably second best show this season - Durararararararararararara bores me to tears literally. So, Katanagatari doesn't even have a real contender =)
Katanagatari is also one of the top for me as well. Dance in the Vampire Bund is actually my top show this season, for its powerful imagery, music placement, and emotion, but Katanagatari is a very close second. None of the other 'serious' shows this season, like Durarara or Sora no Woto, really come close.
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Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 80/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-03-22 at 18:53.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:45   Link #858
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It's not that. In fact, I'm not even taking that into account until I've heard the full story.
Good man! I withhold my judgment on Shichika until this is revealed as well =).

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
More importantly: given the poignancy of Meisai's death, I can't see how you could really think that this series' opponents are just 'monsters of the month' who are merely stepping stones for the main characters' development. Certainly the writers wouldn't devote so much time crafting Meisai's backstory, and portray her death as the culmination of something like 'fate', if this was truly the case, right? In every episode, I think the side and supporting characters are just as important as the recurring mains themselves. Considering that the original form of each episode was a novel, they almost have to be (while it might be okay for a single anime episode to focus entirely on the development of its main characters, in the case of an entire novel, the antagonists certainly must be enough of an entity in themselves to make the protagonist's triumph over them meaningful, don't you think?). Each episode in and of itself is a complete story; I think that's also enough to make the monthly release rate appropriate.
I agree a lot with this, especially coming from the novel. The amount of "random talks", albeit enjoyable sometimes, feels rather more like word-quota fillers if entirely unrelated to the story. Yet, as shown in episode 2, Togame still ties it back to Shichika regarding the last word, which I suspect was the reason for the huge amount of the conversation being included in the first place. 3rd volume had a ton of talking too, but the pacing in the episode doesn't feel nearly as dragged out. In this sense, the director/series composer are being really good at adapting this the novel into anime form.

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I actually like the once a month. Good for savoring the eps. Not that I'd have the force of will to resist devouring them as soon as available if they came more frequently.
I feel it's higher quality if they have more time to do this as well.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
But as a human being, that means he is broken. As we watch Togame mature, so might we hope that Shichika expands his understanding of things -- a "coming of age" story thread for each of them interwoven. I'd say that's a primary reason his sister wanted him out and about in the world.
A bit of word picking but you have to be "complete" before you can be broken, otherwise you're just flawed; in this case, however, I do agree he is broken because something drove him to kill his father. I will be highly disappointed if the death was accidental or martial-art tradition related.

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I do agree that all ninjas are unnecessary eccentric so far.
I love their eccentricities, they distinguish the ninjas from random ninja/pirate/"ghost" fodders (but still are fodders ... so far)!
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:18   Link #859
WanderingKnight
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I can't really believe you found nothing interesting in episode 3. I'd agree with you on episode 2, that there was altogether too much fourth wall referencing, but these last two episodes have made it clear that the 'swords/enemies of the month' are a significant part of the content in this series, and I think each episode (even episode 2) has managed to deliver on that, hasn't it? I disagree that the series trying to base itself solely around continuous development of the main characters when from my perspective, every episode has been very conscious about presenting a complete and interesting story in itself. In episodes 2 and 3, those stories began with the introductions and ended with the deaths of Uneri and Meisai respectively.
If that is really what this show is about, then it'll be more boring for me since the concept was done so many times it's stupid to do it again and expect a masterpiece off it. I was rather amused by the dialogue in episode 1, even though it wasn't great, it wasn't bad either. And given episode 2 and 3, I still believe they're trying to put the focus more on the characters than the swords (or maybe that's just me, I find the latter idea terribly boring and uninteresting for a series).

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More importantly: given the poignancy of Meisai's death, I can't see how you could really think that this series' opponents are just 'monsters of the month' who are merely stepping stones for the main characters' development. Certainly the writers wouldn't devote so much time crafting Meisai's backstory, and portray her death as the culmination of something like 'fate', if this was truly the case, right? In every episode, I think the side and supporting characters are just as important as the recurring mains themselves. Considering that the original form of each episode was a novel, they almost have to be (while it might be okay for a single anime episode to focus entirely on the development of its main characters, in the case of an entire novel, the antagonists certainly must be enough of an entity in themselves to make the protagonist's triumph over them meaningful, don't you think?). Each episode in and of itself is a complete story; I think that's also enough to make the monthly release rate appropriate.
You seem not to be too familiar with the "monster of the day" story archetype, because that's actually what you just described. Of course, if it was done badly, I would have given up on the series already. If I haven't it's because it's not that bad and it somehow manages to keep it interesting despite the bland base.

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It's not that. In fact, I'm not even taking that into account until I've heard the full story. Shichika was totally willing to kill those two robbers even when they were no longer a threat and Togame had to actually explain why he shouldn't.
How is that different from the typical Tarzan boy story with a "civilized" female companion?

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But it is, I suppose, about the characters. Not Shichika. Maybe about Togame, long term. Taking it slowly. Mostly, though, it's about the antagonists. Who are those people, holding on to their swords with all they have? What do they hope to accomplish? Maybe that's why the first ninja was so boring. His motivation - money - was so mundane. So lacking in nobility.
Cue my opinion on monster of the day shows.

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WanderingKnight is doing it wrong. If you dislike the main character that much, you drop the show unless you are masochist.
I'm not a masochist, and I actually like watching anime, even if it's not that good. Out of the Winter season, I've only picked up three series, so dropping it would mean one less anime I would be watching.

Also there's this thing called "criticism". It doesn't mean I think this series is bad for anime standards. If it was I would've dropped it long ago.

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"Jungle boy" isn't that simple and that much of a jungle boy too if you pay attention to what he does and says.
Please show me an example.

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Actually the arguably second best show this season - Durararararararararararara bores me to tears literally.
If you really think that way then our opinions are so distant it's ridiculous to try and make a meaningful discussion out of it. Durarara is so good, so much better than this anime and that most, if not all the series we've seen last year it's not even funny.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:38   Link #860
maplehurry
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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But yeah, if someone draws a sword against him, he considers it natural to go against that person with deadly force, too. And really, why wouldn't he?
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Shichika's predisposition to killing is only towards people who threaten his (or Togame's) life. That's how things worked in that feudal era--blades were drawn, and they were used for killing.
One thing to note is that they get themselves into these dangerous situations more than half of the time. For now, we can still call it fair game since their opponents all somehow agree to the duels...
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