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Old 2010-03-20, 00:07   Link #1821
LyricalAura
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I've been musing on the rules of the game lately, and I had an idea about what Meta-Beatrice's motivation might have been in getting Battler to play this game with her. I don't really have much supporting evidence for it yet, but I'd like to ramble about it a bit and hear what people think.

Beato wanted Battler to reach the truth, but she drew out this game as long as possible, tried to deceive him, and made both him and herself suffer in the process. She wanted the culprit exposed, but for some reason she wanted Battler to drag himself to that truth in spite of her efforts to hide it. If she cares about the family so much that she's willing to take the blame for all of their sins, why did she try to protect the culprit who murdered all of them? And once Battler learned the truth, why did he join her in trying to hide that culprit's identity and forgive her for all of her own sins? Or to put it another way, is there a particular person who Beato and Battler would behave this way for, if they were the culprit?

My idea is: no, there is no such person. The clues Beato provided in the first four games do not single out a specific culprit, but rather allow two or more possible theories, each with a different culprit. And that's exactly the point.

According to the rules, many different possible solutions can exist as long as they don't violate the red truth constraints. For example, there may be an ultimate solution in which Shannon is the culprit and Kanon is innocent, and another solution in which Kanon is the culprit and Shannon is innocent. Let's say these are the only two solutions permitted by the red. In that case, who is truly guilty? By Battler's logic, until the cat box is opened and someone's guilt is proven, they're both innocent. But in that situation, who would dare swing the red sword and condemn someone they love as a murderer?

We already have plenty of quantum physics in our mystery, what with the many-worlds interpretation and Schrodinger's cat box, so let's throw in another term. Entanglement, a state where two particles are in related but unknown states. Say, one has spin up and one has spin down, but you don't know which is which until you open the cat box. Up or down, innocent or guilty. Beato has the power to decide which way it goes, but she loves everyone too much to make the decision herself, so she tried to get Battler to do it for her. She wanted him, using the blue truth, to force her to pick a culprit.

But in the end, Battler reached the same conclusion that she did. He understood why she hid the truth, and he could hardly condemn her for refusing to damn a loved one; he didn't want to do it either. That's why he forgave her, and switched to her side for the sixth game. But Virgilia understood that as long as they didn't choose a murderer, there would be no hope of catching that murderer, and no hope of releasing the other sixteen people from the island. They would remain in purgatory forever. It's like Maria's fairy tale about witches from EP4: one must be damned so that everyone else can be saved.
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Old 2010-03-20, 01:25   Link #1822
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I think your on the right track.

The only thing I'd like to add is that Beatrice may be betting on whether Battler discovers his sin or not.

I have my own theories about who the mastermind is, but I like the idea of each game being a mystery with a completely different culprit for some reason. The entanglement idea seems to work here. And since each game has a different story this may turn out to be true.
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Old 2010-03-20, 09:31   Link #1823
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Even though it shouldn't be compared to Higurashi, I think in every game there's someone who kills other people, but in the end, the reason for everything is based on one or two or so people. I agree with LyricalAura though, one must be damned so the others could be set free and be saved, and that person is the mastermind behind everything. I, too, have my theories, but we don't really know what to expect in the end. I'm hoping ep 7 could clear out some theories and such, so ep 8 could confirm things, unless there's an ep 9, which I doubt.
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Old 2010-03-20, 11:33   Link #1824
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I'm still of the opinion that Ep7 = Battler/Beatrice beats Bernkastel, Ep8 = return of Battler vs Beatrice, but with Beatrice on the human side and Battler on the witch side.
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Old 2010-03-20, 12:24   Link #1825
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@Judoh:
Rather than each game having a different mastermind, I was suggesting that the mastermind is always same, but the given clues are deliberately not enough information to narrow their identity down to a particular person. Although, if you believe it's possible for the different game boards to contradict each other and have different masterminds, then I think that's still compatible with my theory as you said.

In other words, it's like what Erika realized at the end of EP6. There isn't "one correct solution" to the game, but several. That doesn't mean you can't find "a" correct solution, but you haven't really solved the puzzle unless you nail down all of them.

--

Considering it more, I think I can give an alternate explanation for Kanon and Shannon's duel now. Let's single out Shannon for a minute and say there's one kakera where she loves George, and another kakera where she's a crazy axe murderer. Both of these people are Shannon, so we can't really say "Shannon loves George", but rather something like "Half of Shannon loves George." In other words, the part of her that loves George is less than a full person. The way to make her a full person would be to destroy the kakera where she's a murderer and reclaim the part of her soul that was tied up in it.

If Kanon is in the same situation and they're entangled like I suggested before, then we can make some sense of the duel. In this cat box situation, they're both spread out over kakera where they love their partners or are horrible murderers, so neither of them is "fully" in love and they're both doomed to fail. Only by adding in Beatrice's power to collapse the cat box do they have an opportunity to succeed. But because of the entanglement, if one of them becomes fully a lover, the other will become fully a murderer, and the murderer's love will fail. The duel is therefore a metaphor for Beato and Battler's internal struggle over who to sacrifice, instead of representing some relationship between Shannon and Kanon on the board.

There's lots of room to argue about what kakera were being fought over, whether Jessica and George are also potential culprits, and whether the winner of the duel is or is not the culprit. I think the basic structure of the theory is sound though.
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Old 2010-03-20, 12:43   Link #1826
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Doesn't it say that 'the master' IS 19 though, not 'they're from 19 years ago'?
If I remember correctly, yes, you're right. It said something like 19 was the age of the master of the gameboard.
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Old 2010-03-20, 23:53   Link #1827
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
If Kanon is in the same situation and they're entangled like I suggested before, then we can make some sense of the duel. In this cat box situation, they're both spread out over kakera where they love their partners or are horrible murderers, so neither of them is "fully" in love and they're both doomed to fail. Only by adding in Beatrice's power to collapse the cat box do they have an opportunity to succeed. But because of the entanglement, if one of them becomes fully a lover, the other will become fully a murderer, and the murderer's love will fail. The duel is therefore a metaphor for Beato and Battler's internal struggle over who to sacrifice, instead of representing some relationship between Shannon and Kanon on the board.
I do like this idea, but why? Sure, you can show lots of different stories and create a different culprit each time, but pieces still cannot act against their nature. In that sense, sure, you can say many people on the island have the potential to kill, but that potential exists on a relatively narrow scale. Tensions run high, and people are in desperate straits; the ones who might kill would probably only need a nudge one way or the other.

For instance, if Shannon is the one trying to get Battler to remember his sin, what does she do if he, well... does? If Battler indicates that maybe he remembers on the 4th, does she stop all plans to kill and Kanon starts (whether you believe Shkanon or not really, this is possible)? But why does he suddenly become a killer if she doesn't? It would have to be tied to something Shannon does or does not do, or it would literally not make any sense for it to be impossible for the two to reconcile their problems under your theory. "If x is innocent, y is always the killer; and if y is innocent, x is always the killer" effectively presupposes a very direct relationship between the motives of x and y. So what are they?

But looked at that way, I don't know if I can say entirely that "there are some kakera where Shannon is totally innocent and some where she is totally guilty, and vice-versa for Kanon." Because if that were true, they'd both be... kinda unhinged. And in many ways - though poetic - this would make it much harder to resolve their lingering issues. If indeed whether Shannon or Kanon is up to no good comes down to matters as small as to be possible to determine with a coin flip, then it actually ought to be much easier to make the coin balance on its side in the end... so to speak.

Well, the odds of a flipped coin resting on its side are so small they'd take a miracle, but... that's hardly an obstacle in Umineko.
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Old 2010-03-21, 09:45   Link #1828
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If I remember correctly, yes, you're right. It said something like 19 was the age of the master of the gameboard.
More specifically its "19 is the age of the true master of Rokkenjima" or something to that extent, IIRC
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Old 2010-03-21, 12:03   Link #1829
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But looked at that way, I don't know if I can say entirely that "there are some kakera where Shannon is totally innocent and some where she is totally guilty, and vice-versa for Kanon." Because if that were true, they'd both be... kinda unhinged. And in many ways - though poetic - this would make it much harder to resolve their lingering issues. If indeed whether Shannon or Kanon is up to no good comes down to matters as small as to be possible to determine with a coin flip, then it actually ought to be much easier to make the coin balance on its side in the end... so to speak.

Well, the odds of a flipped coin resting on its side are so small they'd take a miracle, but... that's hardly an obstacle in Umineko.
Kyrie's story in EP6 has a very similar setup, I think. As we know her now, she's a loving wife and completely innocent (of committing murder, probably). But for want of Accident X, she would have taken that knife she'd prepared and murdered Asumu six years ago. Her innocence at the present time hinged on what was effectively a random event. So I don't think you could call Shannon or Kanon unhinged in that sort of situation unless you're ready to call Kyrie unhinged in the same way.

That said, you have a good point about their motives being closely linked. I just don't have any idea what those motives might be yet.
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:50   Link #1830
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Well, given the state of the board and the rules of its setup, any "random event" (so to speak) that influences the murders would have to take place on the 4th. Ideally, we would have already been shown this event (or these events) in various games. So what were they?
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Old 2010-03-21, 14:53   Link #1831
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Well, given the state of the board and the rules of its setup, any "random event" (so to speak) that influences the murders would have to take place on the 4th. Ideally, we would have already been shown this event (or these events) in various games. So what were they?
If we go for Kanon/Shannon then my best guess would be proposal of George.
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:17   Link #1832
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I think George has a rather interesting position, since he's the one who marks Maria's flower, which is the reason why Maria always meets someone in that spot. Additionally, I find it funny his proposal to Shannon has received good focus.

Either way, I wonder if there's some connection between the love test in EP4 and the one in EP6. In both of them there can only be one victor, and it required someone's death.
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:34   Link #1833
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I think George has a rather interesting position, since he's the one who marks Maria's flower, which is the reason why Maria always meets someone in that spot. Additionally, I find it funny his proposal to Shannon has received good focus.

Either way, I wonder if there's some connection between the love test in EP4 and the one in EP6. In both of them there can only be one victor, and it required someone's death.
Well EP 4's test isn't exactly a love test - it only mentions one of the possible sacrifices being the person you love. EP 4's test sounds more like a morality test rather than anything else, since it essentially asks "what do you value the most".
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Old 2010-03-21, 15:43   Link #1834
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True, true, EP4's wasn't a love test, but I think a connection can be established between them. In EP4's the test was about how far a person would go for the family's headship, and in EP6 it was how far a person could go for love. Both tests involved killing other people, and both placed an important focus on lovers.

So, even if they weren't the same test, I think there may be a connection between them.
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Old 2010-03-21, 16:52   Link #1835
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I think George has a rather interesting position, since he's the one who marks Maria's flower, which is the reason why Maria always meets someone in that spot. Additionally, I find it funny his proposal to Shannon has received good focus.

Either way, I wonder if there's some connection between the love test in EP4 and the one in EP6. In both of them there can only be one victor, and it required someone's death.
He's also the first person to see Maria take out her letter in episode 1. He also protects Maria from the adults a lot. He understands that he can order the servants when Kinzo isn't present. He's the first to notice the gold and the letter on the table in episode 2. Also in episode 2 at one point the narration says the servants gain George as a "new master". He leaves for some unknown reason in episode 3 and numbers are written on the wall near where he dies. He described himself as being well prepared and others say he is well on his way in the business world. He is the only person to have 07151129 hinted in his tips. It's possible he created the account using that number since anyone in business world could have done it although the money contained in it is probably yakuza money.

He's just overall suspicious. My favorite mastermind.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-21 at 17:18.
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Old 2010-03-22, 08:31   Link #1836
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He's also the first person to see Maria take out her letter in episode 1. He also protects Maria from the adults a lot. He understands that he can order the servants when Kinzo isn't present. He's the first to notice the gold and the letter on the table in episode 2. Also in episode 2 at one point the narration says the servants gain George as a "new master". He leaves for some unknown reason in episode 3 and numbers are written on the wall near where he dies. He described himself as being well prepared and others say he is well on his way in the business world. He is the only person to have 07151129 hinted in his tips. It's possible he created the account using that number since anyone in business world could have done it although the money contained in it is probably yakuza money.

He's just overall suspicious. My favorite mastermind.
I'm growing more attracted to this idea. I thought about George as the mastermind about two or three months back, but something distracted me and I forgot about it. As well, he does survive decently in all episodes, the only one he dies in the first twilight being Episode 5, but I think it's reasonable to say he didn't die at that point. And maybe the "variable" factor is that in each episode he has a different team of people he's convinced to help him plan out his scheme. For example, in Episodes 1 and 2 he has Genji support him by cutting the phone lines and providing the paranoid parent reasons to distrust the servants.

And on the topic of the love test in Episode 4, what do you think Maria chose for her test? I always thought it would be herself, since the people she loves most (Rosa, Sakutaro) are all dead by then, and it seems likely that she would kill off Battler, the only person left alive at that point. That and how Battler finds her dead while he's investigating the mansion.
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Old 2010-03-22, 09:49   Link #1837
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I can't really see Maria picking herself on the test... I can see her finding a way around it and picking something like "being with Mama forever".
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:14   Link #1838
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I can't really see Maria picking herself on the test... I can see her finding a way around it and picking something like "being with Mama forever".
Well think of it this way: Maria wants to go to the Golden Land. When she leaves the guest house she says that its now the 10th twilight, so that means it is time for her to die. If she picks the 2nd option then Rosa's love may not come true for her when she dies. And we know she's dead when Battler goes to the guest house.

Personally I think whoever killed her did it via smothering. Just taking a pillow and killing her in that fashion would be clean, easy and won't leave any signs of other damage. Because of Knox, poison is less likely the cause unless we can identify it being on the island and hinted previously.
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:42   Link #1839
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Personally I think whoever killed her did it via smothering. Just taking a pillow and killing her in that fashion would be clean, easy and won't leave any signs of other damage. Because of Knox, poison is less likely the cause unless we can identify it being on the island and hinted previously.
Well, Knox indicates that any undiscovered poisons are not to be used but poisons we all know about are basically legitimate. I would assume that maybe hard to get poisons (say, polonium in Umineko) are out but it's quite easy to kill people with regular drugs, not to mention poison.

I remember a mention that Rosa couldn't find Maria's bottle of child sedatives, although I don't remember from which episode. In addition, you could kill someone if you just have them take an entire bottle of regular sleeping pills which any of the adults or Kinzo or Nanjo could have had. Well, overdosing and then being left on the island for awhile, as seen in EP4.

This especially works if the victim can agree to kill herself as in the case with Maria.
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:50   Link #1840
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Well, Knox indicates that any undiscovered poisons are not to be used but poisons we all know about are basically legitimate. I would assume that maybe hard to get poisons (say, polonium in Umineko) are out but it's quite easy to kill people with regular drugs, not to mention poison.

I remember a mention that Rosa couldn't find Maria's bottle of child sedatives, although I don't remember from which episode. In addition, you could kill someone if you just have them take an entire bottle of regular sleeping pills which any of the adults or Kinzo or Nanjo could have had. Well, overdosing and then being left on the island for awhile, as seen in EP4.

This especially works if the victim can agree to kill herself as in the case with Maria.
I'm pretty sure it was in EP 3. But still, that sort of stuff isn't so automatic and does take a while - normally up to 20 minutes. As soon as Battler gets the keys from the chapel he immediately goes to the mansion's dining room. Plus with overdosing you usually end up having convulsions and vomiting, so its not exactly the most peaceful way to go. I'm sure if it was overdosing there would be signs of it happening, but Battler described Maria's body as very peaceful and like she was sleeping.
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