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Old 2010-03-22, 07:29   Link #6281
ridgezipline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Are we forgetting that Athena kicked Hayate to teach him other lessons and when he was complaining that it hurt he was essentially told 'quit crying you baby'?
lol i thought it only showed how hard the training was and also for comedic purposes

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
The Royal Garden was the original plan of HnG with some changes so you can't really classify them as two different manga.
thanks for the info ... considering athena's popularity boost since EotW arc., it'd probably be successful if he decides to make a spin-off series about her lol (but that's just a fan talking

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Originally Posted by alu546 View Post
I have a question for you, have you been following the manga weekly or off annd on in little spurts like I have? The reason for that is thatt I believe it is easier to accept her addition if you have been following weekly because of the timeframe, whereas she has come in and seemingly took control of the story in about 30 minutes for me after many hours of reading and built up affections for what were seemingly very important characters at the time.


My opinions on her developement are still open to change as I read along, but I fear that my opinion may persist if she befomes a permanent looming fixture within the story.
like some others, i only read HnG again after i chanced upon EotW arc by accident i agree she stole the spotlight, even from hayate, for me as well..

it's a shame, she might not be coming on as much, but i prefer seeing her entering with another semiserious/serious story arc than being in gags somehow hata's gags are used too much... comedies are good, but it gets boring without a plot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I remember when I first read about Hayate's flashback, I hoped the girl would be either Maria or Hina (I thought she was Maria, since looking at her from the back, that's what A-tan looked like). There were many people who said it could be a different person, but I thought that'd be a stupid idea, considering we were like, 87 chapters into the story. However, 90 chapters later, we got into the EotW mini-arc, Athena got properly introduced, and I loved her, immediately. She had many of the traits that I liked from other characters (Hina's strength and leadership, Maria's maturity, Nagi's mistress status, Isumi's mysteriousness, Ayumu's straightforwardness), but she had her own flavour. In addition to her positive traits, she also had her negative traits, which I also became fond of. In addition to all of these, she her addition gave Hayate a background, and it gave the story a plot.
*thumbs up*

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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Athena gets karma points. For Athena fans, you get to live with the knowledge that she's mature, cool, attractive, magically powerful and very perceptive. Congrats, your fandom has been justified (if it wasn't already, to you).

For other fans: your girl now has a better chance at "winning".

So, in order to make this truly a win-win, everyone should become fans of Athena and her personality, and then promptly begin shipping another girl with Hayate. WIN-WIN SITUATION.
lol good analysis... the ship with nagi has already started in 265
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Old 2010-03-22, 14:12   Link #6282
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I've been purposely trying to avoid this thread because I didn't want to be spoiled about ch. 265 (also I've had more to study lately), but I decided to take a sneak at the thread a little to see what the current discussion is. I won't comment on the previous pages because most of the things that I wanted to say have been said about it, but there is one thing I want to point out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion
Are we forgetting that Athena kicked Hayate to teach him other lessons and when he was complaining that it hurt he was essentially told 'quit crying you baby'?
You are mixing two different events here.

-Athena only told Hayate to stop crying when they first started the sword training, and that was because she noticed that he cried quite a lot (Before that, she was surprised whenever he's done so)

-Athena kicked Hayate once during the scene in chapter 9, but we learned that that happened because she saw Hayate kiss Izumi before his return (And tbh, this is not as severe as what Nagi does to him from time to time)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgezipline
lol i thought it only showed how hard the training was and also for comedic purposes
No, this was a one-of-occurrence where Athena was very angry at Hayate for flirting with another girl (Even though it wasn’t his fault :/).

Personally, I never thought that Hayate getting hit or punished by the girls very funny. Not when Hina does it, not when Athena does it, or when Nagi does it (the first two had their reasons, but Nagi does it at times when it isn't even his fault)


*Goes back to avoid spoilers *
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Old 2010-03-22, 16:11   Link #6283
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Guys. She was like eight. I punched my sister when I was eight. I told her she was stupid. I told my parents I hated them. I told my best friends never to leave me and to be friends with me forever.

Selfish? Probably, but I was eight. Watch little kids interact with each other and you'll know what I mean. Give it a break, most of that immaturity, violence, and selfishness has LONG SINCE been remedied if it was ever anything serious.
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Old 2010-03-22, 16:33   Link #6284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
You are mixing two different events here.

-Athena only told Hayate to stop crying when they first started the sword training, and that was because she noticed that he cried quite a lot (Before that, she was surprised whenever he's done so)

-Athena kicked Hayate once during the scene in chapter 9, but we learned that that happened because she saw Hayate kiss Izumi before his return (And tbh, this is not as severe as what Nagi does to him from time to time)
O.o I have no idea what you think you're talking about there. She kicked him in the stomach hard enough to send him flying while teaching him how to be a boyfriend, and then when he complained she told him it's 'the pain of love'. Pretty sure it's on the same page and in the first flashback where she's shown. Long before she's even introduced.

While Nagi does do worse, she does it in the present, when he has the constitution of a Gundam. Athena did this when his constitution is still at the level of a six-year-old.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:08   Link #6285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
O.o I have no idea what you think you're talking about there. She kicked him in the stomach hard enough to send him flying while teaching him how to be a boyfriend, and then when he complained she told him it's 'the pain of love'.
It's. A. Joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
While Nagi does do worse, she does it in the present, when he has the constitution of a Gundam. Athena did this when his constitution is still at the level of a six-year-old.
She kicked him after she had awoken his "inner strength", so he was just as resilient as when Nagi does it.

Really, people have the most ridiculous double standards for a slapstick comedy series.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:33   Link #6286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
She kicked him after she had awoken his "inner strength", so he was just as resilient as when Nagi does it.

Really, people have the most ridiculous double standards for a slapstick comedy series.
I have my doubts that she actually did anything with 'awakening his inner strength'. She hasn't cast anything on anyone else except for that one time, so we don't know if she even can. The training she gave him and the self-training in the last 10 years is the more plausible reason, for a normal person.
Seems to me that the 'spell' was more to boost his confidence that he could do something so that she could teach him rather than actually doing anything to him.
Time is a huge factor in the resilience of the human body.

If he'd gotten run over by a car back then, he probably would have been killed. In present he's gotten run over twice, and the first he nearly did die. Later he gets run down, and goes on to out-speed a train on a bike. And both happened before we were shown the spell.

200+ one-fingered push-ups (those are the only numbers I could find) was probably enough to get a benefit back when he was training with Athena, he'd probably have to be doing ten or hundreds of times more by now to be seeing any significant difference now.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:42   Link #6287
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I have my doubts that she actually did anything with 'awakening his inner strength'. She hasn't cast anything on anyone else except for that one time, so we don't know if she even can. The training she gave him and the self-training in the last 10 years is the more plausible reason, for a normal person.
Seems to me that the 'spell' was more to boost his confidence that he could do something so that she could teach him rather than actually doing anything to him.
Time is a huge factor in the resilience of the human body.
i think a re-read is in order for you here, Hayate did comment on how his body felt a lot lighter right after Athena cast the spell. Also dont even start trying to question her magic at this stage of the story because it has already been stated by Isumi as well about how Midas was able to get great strength by drawing Athena's ability to unlock potentials.
As well as controlling Shirosakura's power to strengthen Machina. So yes, she did cast a spell on Hayate that time, he felt the change himself and there were immediately obvious improvements on his skills as a butler since then.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:10   Link #6288
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Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
i think a re-read is in order for you here, Hayate did comment on how his body felt a lot lighter right after Athena cast the spell. Also dont even start trying to question her magic at this stage of the story because it has already been stated by Isumi as well about how Midas was able to get great strength by drawing Athena's ability to unlock potentials.
As well as controlling Shirosakura's power to strengthen Machina. So yes, she did cast a spell on Hayate that time, he felt the change himself and there were immediately obvious improvements on his skills as a butler since then.
Never heard of the placebo effect?
He trained with the sword, did thousands of push-up's daily and worked since he was 9, and his endurance and skill is possible for a normal human in the real world.

Loving how Isumi's knowledge is taken as factual when to have anything less than 2nd-hand knowledge of the stuff she's talking about she'd have to be a child prodigy greater than what you're purporting Athena to be with greater knowledge of things that happened out of her sight when she was three
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:29   Link #6289
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Never heard of the placebo effect?
He trained with the sword, did thousands of push-up's daily and worked since he was 9, and his endurance and skill is possible for a normal human in the real world.
still doesnt explain his sudden improvement in terms of his skills right after the spell, i mean he was struggling carrying a bucket of water before she did it. All of his hard work and training really started to get underway after she unlocked him, and if im not mistaken she did this on the day after Hayate arrived at the Royal Garden, so its not like he even did anything while unlocked, except of course...dropping a bucket of water on Athena.

There is no mention anywhere of Hayate doing such workout before meeting Athena, so it should be safe to assume that her spell was the catalyst for what would become the boulder he is now. Granted, he could've still trained with the same intensity even without being unlocked, but I doubt he would reach the look-at-me-fight-a-tiger tier without it.

On that note...Hayate's brother looks too unnaturally skilled....was it because of Shirosakura?
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:40   Link #6290
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
O.o I have no idea what you think you're talking about there. She kicked him in the stomach hard enough to send him flying while teaching him how to be a boyfriend, and then when he complained she told him it's 'the pain of love'. Pretty sure it's on the same page and in the first flashback where she's shown. Long before she's even introduced.
You are talking about something completely different here. I never wrote that Athena didn't kick Haytae, I was referring to when the scene from vol. 9 was put in context in the EotW arc (where saw those panels included in there) and explaining the reason why she kicked him (because you seemed to assume that she was doing it as part of his training when it was her being angry at him and lecturing him while confusing the other scene where she tells him to stop crying), and what is even more obvious (like musouka mentioned) is that the situation is meant to be taken as being comedic and not serious.
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Never heard of the placebo effect?
He trained with the sword, did thousands of push-up's daily and worked since he was 9, and his endurance and skill is possible for a normal human in the real world.

Loving how Isumi's knowledge is taken as factual when to have anything less than 2nd-hand knowledge of the stuff she's talking about she'd have to be a child prodigy greater than what you're purporting Athena to be with greater knowledge of things that happened out of her sight when she was three
You seem to have forgotten that Haytae's strength has been proven to be abnormal by the story itself in the past. The fact that Hayate was able to fight robots, giant tree monsters, and hell, have boulders fall on him and merely brush off all that damage away like nothing is not something that is gained by simply having confidence to do so. He struggled to even carry a bucket of water before she unlocked his strength, and the series supports that she had done something to him to give him his monstrous power. You are simply saying ''Athena didn't do it, it must have been something else'' without actually showing information from the story to support that.

The second part of your post is really strange. You mock Game for actually using the information presented from the story itself, and through (by the author's own word) one of the strongest characters in the series to further validate their worth, while you have not actually provided anything that proves why it is not ''factual''
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:57   Link #6291
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Hayate is abnormal according to Word of God, or the author himself. And you spell "existence" with an "e"
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:10   Link #6292
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Bastion, even the TVTrope, although strangely said Athena used psychological tortures on Hayate by *cough**cough*, that you believe in so much said that Athena power up Hayate. What happened?
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:19   Link #6293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
You are talking about something completely different here. I never wrote that Athena didn't kick Haytae, I was referring to when the scene from vol. 9 was put in context in the EotW arc (where saw those panels included in there) and explaining the reason why she kicked him (because you seemed to assume that she was doing it as part of his training when it was her being angry at him and lecturing him while confusing the other scene where she tells him to stop crying), and what is even more obvious (like musouka mentioned) is that the situation is meant to be taken as being comedic and not serious.
So you're arguing that your statement is more valid than mine because we're using different scenes?

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
You seem to have forgotten that Haytae's strength has been proven to be abnormal by the story itself in the past. The fact that Hayate was able to fight robots, giant tree monsters, and hell, have boulders fall on him and merely brush off all that damage away like nothing is not something that is gained by simply having confidence to do so. He struggled to even carry a bucket of water before she unlocked his strength, and the series supports that she had done something to him to give him his monstrous power. You are simply saying ''Athena didn't do it, it must have been something else'' without actually showing information from the story to support that.
Yes, it isn't normal to be able to do those things. Most of the story isn't normal, that's part of the humor of the series.
He's done those things after training himself for years, which is in itself abnormal.
Did he undertake those tests while he was with Athena? No, they were after, after his abnormal training regime.

I'm saying the exact opposite actually. The world is not black and white, don't pretend that it is.
I'm not discounting the possibility that Athena did do something, but acknowledging the possibility that she didn't. Occam's Razor takes the possibility with fewer assumptions. That would be the one saying she didn't do anything except give him confidence. He doesn't show a significant difference in endurance until he's undergone a training that would give him that endurance normally, and we've seen that it's still growing stronger.
If the spell simply made a jump in his endurance, would we still be seeing increases of such magnitude ten years later?
The only 'superhuman' thing Hayate has done in his circumstances has been to pull things out of thin air, standard for anime/manga characters and having absolutely nothing to do with Athena's spell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
The second part of your post is really strange. You mock Game for actually using the information presented from the story itself, and through (by the author's own word) one of the strongest characters in the series to further validate their worth, while you have not actually provided anything that proves why it is not ''factual''
That's what you get for not reading the rest of the argument. Non-Athena fans had just gotten a similar statement leveled at them.
Also, see above 'black and white' statement.
Having knowledge that she probably did have trained into her is different that making statements about things she couldn't possibly have known herself. Yet they are taken at full stock as true.

Could Athena be the reincarnation of the Greek goddess Athena?
Yes.
Could she just be a normal human?
Yes.
The story has given us nothing factual making either of these claims true or false.
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:01   Link #6294
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Yes, it isn't normal to be able to do those things. Most of the story isn't normal, that's part of the humor of the series.
He's done those things after training himself for years, which is in itself abnormal.
Did he undertake those tests while he was with Athena? No, they were after, after his abnormal training regime.

I'm saying the exact opposite actually. The world is not black and white, don't pretend that it is.
I'm not discounting the possibility that Athena did do something, but acknowledging the possibility that she didn't. Occam's Razor takes the possibility with fewer assumptions. That would be the one saying she didn't do anything except give him confidence. He doesn't show a significant difference in endurance until he's undergone a training that would give him that endurance normally, and we've seen that it's still growing stronger.
If the spell simply made a jump in his endurance, would we still be seeing increases of such magnitude ten years later?
The only 'superhuman' thing Hayate has done in his circumstances has been to pull things out of thin air, standard for anime/manga characters and having absolutely nothing to do with Athena's spell.
The fact that you keeping denying what's obviously shown in "Hata's world" with endless excuses while the others constantly presenting facts from "Hata's world" that he had shown is hilarious.

I mean, really? The light on Athena's hand, the magic circle that she placed on him, his newly born strength say nothing to you. That would be very so impressive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
That's what you get for not reading the rest of the argument. Non-Athena fans had just gotten a similar statement leveled at them.
Also, see above 'black and white' statement.
Having knowledge that she probably did have trained into her is different that making statements about things she couldn't possibly have known herself. Yet they are taken at full stock as true.

Could Athena be the reincarnation of the Greek goddess Athena?
Yes.
Could she just be a normal human?
Yes.
The story has given us nothing factual making either of these claims true or false.
Everybody uses facts that provided by the author himself in the world that he created to support their claims except you. Everybody knows what happened and Athena's strength which was claimed by the author himself, HE KNOWS WHAT IS BLACK AND WHAT IS WHITE.

This "black and white" scenario is nothing more than "I must mix manga with reality since there is no way out."

If you don't trust what Hata wrote, which is about every positive aspect of Athena, why do you even arguing about her? There is really no point.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-03-22 at 20:23.
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:44   Link #6295
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
He doesn't show a significant difference in endurance until he's undergone a training that would give him that endurance normally, and we've seen that it's still growing stronger.
If the spell simply made a jump in his endurance, would we still be seeing increases of such magnitude ten years later?
I just took the scene as a regular random powerup for the main character in a shonen manga. Except for the fight with Athena back when they were little (rigged too), Hayate hasn't been in any major battles in the past to compare his endurance with his present self. Jobwise, I don't think there's too much difference in his endurance. He had to support his lousy parents' gambling habits through work and obviously had to have a lot of jobs considering how much his parents spend on their investments. ALL of his spare time is devoted to working so his working hours and the amount of jobs he has wouldn't have changed much, and so little endurance boost would've been needed.
If training must be involved to keep the ridiculous amount of power the characters in this manga has, then it doesn't explain how Hinagiku or Maria still possess ridiculous skill, power and endurance despite not having the same training routine Hayate has (they probably don't even have any).
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:45   Link #6296
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wtf happened in the last chapter!? EVERYTHING WAS DOING SO WELL, IS THERE A FREAKING LAW BUTLERS CANT HAVE A LOVER?! HE IS JUST GRATEFULL TO NAGI, HE IS NO LOLI LOVAR DARN, Hata will go to jail if hayate falls in love with nagi lulz (anyway for me is obvious he just sees her as a really beloved sister)
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:56   Link #6297
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wtf happened in the last chapter!? EVERYTHING WAS DOING SO WELL, IS THERE A FREAKING LAW BUTLERS CANT HAVE A LOVER?! HE IS JUST GRATEFULL TO NAGI, HE IS NO LOLI LOVAR DARN, Hata will go to jail if hayate falls in love with nagi lulz (anyway for me is obvious he just sees her as a really beloved sister)
Isn't it normal nowadays that 14 year olds are allowed to have a romantic relationship, considering the fact that Hayate isn't even that much older than Nagi, only 2 years.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:00   Link #6298
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Isn't it normal nowadays that 14 year olds are allowed to have a romantic relationship, considering the fact that Hayate isn't even that much older than Nagi, only 2 years.
Nagi's only 13. In fact, barely 13, since her birthday is December 3rd.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:04   Link #6299
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Hayate is bad with dealing with girls anyways, so even if they are in a relationship nothing will happen.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:36   Link #6300
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I'm not discounting the possibility that Athena did do something, but acknowledging the possibility that she didn't. Occam's Razor takes the possibility with fewer assumptions. That would be the one saying she didn't do anything except give him confidence.
Fair enough, although Im not sure why you would want to do that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
He doesn't show a significant difference in endurance until he's undergone a training that would give him that endurance normally, and we've seen that it's still growing stronger.
If the spell simply made a jump in his endurance, would we still be seeing increases of such magnitude ten years later?
There is no way to measure Hayate's pre-power up endurance since he was never in a situation that would test it before he met Athena, and she pretty much buffed him almost right after meeting with himcso discussing this point is meaningless for both sides now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
The only 'superhuman' thing Hayate has done in his circumstances has been to pull things out of thin air, standard for anime/manga characters and having absolutely nothing to do with Athena's spell.
He can also ride a bike faster than a sport's car, get hit full force by a moving car/truck and survive and although a bit far fetched and maybe unrelated to this...travel through time.

edit: wasnt he pierced/scrapped deeply more than enough times by Midas on the most recent arc as well? Im surprised the guy can still stand
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