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Old 2010-03-22, 15:41   Link #1841
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I'm sure if it was overdosing there would be signs of it happening, but Battler described Maria's body as very peaceful and like she was sleeping.
Then if it was poison/a drug overdose, someone else must have arranged her body after she was dead.

Who says she was actually the last to die?
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Old 2010-03-22, 16:39   Link #1842
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then if it was poison/a drug overdose, someone else must have arranged her body after she was dead.

Who says she was actually the last to die?
True, but the point is that would take a while. Killing with a drug overdose takes a fair amount of time, as I said. Battler going to the chapel and back probably takes about 10 to 15 minutes in total. Smothering, on the other hand, is a far quicker process. Maria wouldn't struggle since at that point she wants Beatrice to kill her and the body would look far more peaceful than it would from poison or overdosing. Since the mansion has beds then obviously there are pillows, so Knox #8 isn't violated. Poison, on the other hand, is a bit trickier with Knox and drug overdose isn't optimal time wise.
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Old 2010-03-22, 17:58   Link #1843
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Personally I think whoever killed her did it via smothering. Just taking a pillow and killing her in that fashion would be clean, easy and won't leave any signs of other damage. Because of Knox, poison is less likely the cause unless we can identify it being on the island and hinted previously.
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
True, but the point is that would take a while. Killing with a drug overdose takes a fair amount of time, as I said. Battler going to the chapel and back probably takes about 10 to 15 minutes in total. Smothering, on the other hand, is a far quicker process. Maria wouldn't struggle since at that point she wants Beatrice to kill her and the body would look far more peaceful than it would from poison or overdosing. Since the mansion has beds then obviously there are pillows, so Knox #8 isn't violated. Poison, on the other hand, is a bit trickier with Knox and drug overdose isn't optimal time wise.
We've already discussed this. Knox's 4th does not make it less likely that poison is used it makes it so it is forbidden for unknown drugs and hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!!.

So basically Rokkenjima syndrome is denied. A drug that causes you to murder people is denied. Time machines are denied. Teleportation devices are denied. Hard to understand drugs and diseases that cause dead people to become the undead are denied.

Poison as the cause of death is not denied as long as the poison is not unknown to most people. Can we really rule out that they wouldn't have rat poison in a western mansion?

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-22 at 18:25.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:40   Link #1844
Marion
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Knox #4 isn't an issue - #8 is because there isn't hints that Rokkenjima is rat infested. If it is, then its maybe only in the forest.

Poison is not as pleasant a death as it seems. Rat poison especially, since its intended use is for rats and not people and can cause vomiting. Especially with the dose needed for it to effectively work on humans. Not the most pleasant death and I don't think there would be enough time to clean up vomit before Battler comes back.

I just don't see why poison or drug overdose needs to be the cause, when smothering is just as effective and less time consuming.
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:42   Link #1845
LyricalAura
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Wouldn't Maria's clothes be messed up if she'd been smothered to death? Battler said her clothing wasn't disturbed and there were no signs of a struggle.
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:43   Link #1846
Kaisos Erranon
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There was froth on her lips, right? I don't believe smothering would produce that kind of effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Wouldn't Maria's clothes be messed up if she'd been smothered to death? Battler said her clothing wasn't disturbed and there were no signs of a struggle.
This is what I was getting at earlier. Someone else was trying to make it look as though she had killed herself. She might not even have been killed in the dining room at all.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:43   Link #1847
Marion
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Wouldn't Maria's clothes be messed up if she'd been smothered to death? Battler said her clothing wasn't disturbed and there were no signs of a struggle.
Well, like I said before, Maria wouldn't try to struggle. She wants to die after all because she thinks she'll go to the Golden Land and be happy. And its not like the clothes can't be brushed up a little so the wrinkles aren't very visible.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:45   Link #1848
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Well, like I said before, Maria wouldn't try to struggle. She wants to die after all because she thinks she'll go to the Golden Land and be happy. And its not like the clothes can't be brushed up a little so the wrinkles aren't very visible.
I would still prefer a death by poisoned cool aid over a pillow fight. You talk about her like she's part of a Jones suicide cult.
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Old 2010-03-22, 22:19   Link #1849
Marion
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I would still prefer a death by poisoned cool aid over a pillow fight. You talk about her like she's part of a Jones suicide cult.
Well she does say that it doesn't even matter which one of them wins now, because they'll go to the Golden Land. Either way she either commits suicide by taking some unknown drug/poison or some other way. I'm just giving an alternative that may prove quicker than drug overdose.
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Old 2010-03-22, 23:30   Link #1850
ijriims
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What about a candy having multiple types of sedatives inside?

It should cause Maria's death in the calmest way and she will be willing to take the candy if you tell her it is the way to enter the Golden Land.

She had the ability to lie beside Rosa and had that pose in this case, while the candy "capsule" had to be dissolved first.
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:18   Link #1851
Judoh
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
What about a candy having multiple types of sedatives inside?

It should cause Maria's death in the calmest way and she will be willing to take the candy if you tell her it is the way to enter the Golden Land.

She had the ability to lie beside Rosa and had that pose in this case, while the candy "capsule" had to be dissolved first.
Sure if it's a sedative that makes her not dead, but at least she's not faking death at least. She would be out cold. What about the foam on her mouth though?
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Old 2010-03-23, 02:28   Link #1852
ijriims
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A mix of sedatives or depressants could easily kill an adult as they each compound the effect of the other drugs, let alone a kid.

Well, I am no expert on toxicology or medicine. So I guess the foaming in the mouth was a result from regurgitation during unconsciousness


A mix of benzodiazepines (strong depressant, acting like alcohol, causing unconciousness), analgesics (stop pain) and muscle relaxants (block neurotransmittion to muscle) should kill a person easily and painlessly, and or at least since Maria would not breathe or have any movement, Battler could think she was dead even though at that particular moment her brain may not be totally. But still she would die from asphyxia soon.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-03-23 at 03:03.
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Old 2010-03-23, 04:11   Link #1853
Digdri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Knox #4 isn't an issue - #8 is because there isn't hints that Rokkenjima is rat infested. If it is, then its maybe only in the forest.
Following this train of thoughts about applying Knox #8 to this problem I think there was only one situation where they mentioned something in EP1-4 that could be considered causing this in terms of drug/medicine whatever.
There was this scene in EP3 were the adults asked Rosa if she has something to "shut Maria up" annoying anyone with her rose.
I don't remember well (haven't read it for a long time) but I think she said she didn't have it with her but I seemed to me she had some kind of sedative for such situations. The thought at first creepy me out reacting to this question so casually but on the other side considering her AWESOME parenting skills and Maria could have caused many problems for her before when in this childish/angry mode not all that absurd. Perhaps she lied about not having it on her.

But if this really was something made for children and even if its only normal sleeping pills or another common medicine I seems highly unlikely to cause death without much preparation (aka complex explanations ^^) as this stuff is MADE to be safe if not taken in totally huge doses.

The only other thing I can think of being so dangerous are Kinzos vast amounts of strong alcohol

On the other side I'm still not convinced that Knox is meant to be applied in this way (the "arrogant" way as Battler put it in EP5).
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Old 2010-03-23, 04:48   Link #1854
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Digdri View Post
I don't remember well (haven't read it for a long time) but I think she said she didn't have it with her but I seemed to me she had some kind of sedative for such situations. The thought at first creepy me out reacting to this question so casually but on the other side considering her AWESOME parenting skills and Maria could have caused many problems for her before when in this childish/angry mode not all that absurd. Perhaps she lied about not having it on her.
If Rosa wanted to hide that she actually had pills, she could just say she did not have that sort of things with her, or forgot to bring the pills to the island.

I suppose that scene was to show that somebody took all the pills without her knowing it.
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-03-23 at 23:40.
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Old 2010-03-23, 19:53   Link #1855
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Maria left the guesthouse at 11:47, and Battler met "Beatrice" at midnight. Their conversation might have lasted around five to fifteen minutes. There was enough time for any poison to take effect.
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:53   Link #1856
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then if it was poison/a drug overdose, someone else must have arranged her body after she was dead.

Who says she was actually the last to die?
Yeah, the death order in Episode 4 is the most confusing part of it. Because Battler doesn't see any of the deaths until the second day (excluding George) we don't know when on the first day they died. As well, there's that scene where Beato is talking and celebrating with Goldsmith. I think it's either the culprit talking to themself, or a conversation between culprits, so if it's taking place at the time it's shown, then at least two people are still alive at that time. One of them leaves to oversee Maria's test, and the other meets with Battler. Their conversation leaves her in a really foul mood, and she kills the other culprit, if there was one.
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Old 2010-03-24, 13:53   Link #1857
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Yeah, the death order in Episode 4 is the most confusing part of it. Because Battler doesn't see any of the deaths until the second day (excluding George) we don't know when on the first day they died. As well, there's that scene where Beato is talking and celebrating with Goldsmith. I think it's either the culprit talking to themself, or a conversation between culprits, so if it's taking place at the time it's shown, then at least two people are still alive at that time. One of them leaves to oversee Maria's test, and the other meets with Battler. Their conversation leaves her in a really foul mood, and she kills the other culprit, if there was one.
Beato told Battler to go look for Maria at the chapel, and he did find a master key left there, so I wonder if we can trust that it's where Maria's test was supposed to take place. There doesn't seem to be any other good reason for a servant to be out there. But on the other hand, I don't understand what the purpose of leaving the master key was either. If Battler had found Kanon or somebody lying dead in front of the chapel I could understand it somehow, but as it is, it feels kind of vestigial, like a planned trick that was left unfinished.
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Old 2010-03-24, 14:40   Link #1858
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They may have wanted to just delay Battler. Having him be aware that Maria was going to the chapel (and maybe she never did; can we be sure she even had a "test" at all?) would ensure that, once he couldn't get inside the mansion, he'd go out that way to look for Maria or whoever was with her. It strongly speaks toward Maria's involvement, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

We have no proof Maria wasn't told just to tell Battler where she was going, then went straight to the mansion. Or that, if she was told to go to the chapel, she actually obeyed.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:02   Link #1859
imaginari
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Beato told Battler to go look for Maria at the chapel, and he did find a master key left there, so I wonder if we can trust that it's where Maria's test was supposed to take place. There doesn't seem to be any other good reason for a servant to be out there. But on the other hand, I don't understand what the purpose of leaving the master key was either. If Battler had found Kanon or somebody lying dead in front of the chapel I could understand it somehow, but as it is, it feels kind of vestigial, like a planned trick that was left unfinished.
Technically, Beatrice didn't say that Maria was at the chapel. What Battler remembered her saying was that he should go to the chapel if he wants to find Maria, which is literally true, since the mansion was locked and there was no other way inside. The keys were probably hidden so that Battler couldn't do anything until Beatrice finished speaking to him.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:20   Link #1860
LyricalAura
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There are easier ways to delay Battler than to leave a master key at the chapel. If that was all Beato wanted to do, she could have just sent him on a wild goose chase down to the dock or something. After looking around for a while, he'd certainly just come back to the mansion and try to break in through a window anyway. If the culprit really wanted him to have a key so he could get into the locked rooms in the mansion, they could just leave it somewhere obvious, like in front of the dining room. So the fact that someone went out of their way to leave a key at the chapel suggests that there was somebody over there for a reason other than delaying Battler.
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