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Old 2010-03-24, 20:50   Link #6981
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Forewarning: have not read EP6, but have read spoilers. This automatically denies me any authority on what I'm about to say.

I've heard that Kanon's relationships with everyone on the island seem to change dramatically. Genji and Kumasawa as father/mother figures, friendly Kinzo, nice Krauss, stern Natushi (for his own good), etc. Where did all of this come from? *Could* Kanon be writing the island-life he truly wanted to have? Or were we deceived up until now? I don't like this theory. What is DIFFERENT this EP for Kanon-X relationships to be shown differently?

Is the whole "without love..." being taken to a new level? Did these relationships not exist before Kanon realized his 'love' for Jessica, or did Kanon simply not notice them?
In EP4, both Shannon and Kanon remember the previous games. I think that's a hint that their relationships have been improving each time.
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Old 2010-03-24, 20:52   Link #6982
Arachanox
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
In EP4, both Shannon and Kanon remember the previous games. I think that's a hint that their relationships have been improving each time.
So we're agreed on the whole [magic scenes = elaborate metaphors] concept? Because that is a good explanation for 'why' they remembered the past world (threw me off balance when I caught it )
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Old 2010-03-24, 20:52   Link #6983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Forewarning: have not read EP6, but have read spoilers. This automatically denies me any authority on what I'm about to say.

I've heard that Kanon's relationships with everyone on the island seem to change dramatically. Genji and Kumasawa as father/mother figures, friendly Kinzo, nice Krauss, stern Natushi (for his own good), etc. Where did all of this come from? *Could* Kanon be writing the island-life he truly wanted to have? Or were we deceived up until now? I don't like this theory. What is DIFFERENT this EP for Kanon-X relationships to be shown differently?

Is the whole "without love..." being taken to a new level? Did these relationships not exist before Kanon realized his 'love' for Jessica, or did Kanon simply not notice them?
As far as I understand it's not just Kanon. If you go back and look at the woven stories between EP1-6 you have these character developments:

- Shannon becomes more assertive in her love for George
- Kanon overcomes his negativity and becomes human
- Maria lost Sakutaro but regained him


If each world was like kakera in Higurashi, this kind of character development (especially Shannon's) would be hard to justify. But from the authorial system in Umineko, it's merely the authors developing the characters, especially as they got to know more about them (through research, etc.)

Since you didn't read EP6 yet, this bit of spoiler should shed light on why we're talking about the authorial system ...
Spoiler for EP6:
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Old 2010-03-24, 20:55   Link #6984
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
As far as I understand it's not just Kanon. If you go back and look at the woven stories between EP1-6 you have these character developments:

- Shannon becomes more assertive in her love for George
- Kanon overcomes his negativity and becomes human
- Maria lost Sakutaro but regained him


If each world was like kakera in Higurashi, this kind of character development (especially Shannon's) would be hard to justify. But from the authorial system in Umineko, it's merely the authors developing the characters, especially as they got to know more about them (through research, etc.)

Since you didn't read EP6 yet, this bit of spoiler should shed light on why we're talking about the authorial system ...
Spoiler for EP6:
Ah, all of this is interesting! I have a semi-solid grip on Featherine and her author-tricks from EP6, and while I knew there was character development across kakera I just hadn't "realized" that it applied to more than a single person and was so extensive. This is definitely good food for thought. Thanks

As for now, I must retire to a bit of non-Umineko work. Thanks for all the discussions everyone, and goodnight.
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Old 2010-03-24, 20:58   Link #6985
Renall
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
If each world was like kakera in Higurashi, this kind of character development (especially Shannon's) would be hard to justify. But from the authorial system in Umineko, it's merely the authors developing the characters, especially as they got to know more about them (through research, etc.)
This is an interesting standpoint, because it provides an alternative to the previous two options people had for the "remembered" memories.

Before, we just had:
  • Those memories aren't real, Shannon and Kanon don't really remember.
  • Those memories are real, they must remember previous worlds.
Naturally, either is a bit dissatisfying to many. What you're saying, and what ep6 may or may not be hinting, is the following possibility instead:
  • The episodes, being fictional stories written in order, develop as the author's understanding of the characters (and possibly BUT NOT NECESSARILY the real people!) deepens.
In other words, if you honestly believe a writer's understanding of Shannon/Kanon and George/Jessica is deepening over time, then their capacity to write in the relationship also matures. Of course they can't take back the earlier, less refined episodes; what is written is written. They can only refine as they move ahead.

But in that case... what has Battler been seeing? Who is Meta-Battler?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:02   Link #6986
Kaisos Erranon
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Don't you love when theories that explain one thing open up a whole bunch more questions?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:11   Link #6987
SeagullCrazy
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Sort of a side comment, but

Spoiler for Love:
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:13   Link #6988
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is an interesting standpoint, because it provides an alternative to the previous two options people had for the "remembered" memories.

Before, we just had:
  • Those memories aren't real, Shannon and Kanon don't really remember.
  • Those memories are real, they must remember previous worlds.
Naturally, either is a bit dissatisfying to many. What you're saying, and what ep6 may or may not be hinting, is the following possibility instead:
  • The episodes, being fictional stories written in order, develop as the author's understanding of the characters (and possibly BUT NOT NECESSARILY the real people!) deepens.
In other words, if you honestly believe a writer's understanding of Shannon/Kanon and George/Jessica is deepening over time, then their capacity to write in the relationship also matures. Of course they can't take back the earlier, less refined episodes; what is written is written. They can only refine as they move ahead.

But in that case... what has Battler been seeing? Who is Meta-Battler?
Yes, I think it's awesome how the characters can develop despite it being a Groundhog Day type story and that we still have no idea what's going on sometimes. I mean, I had no idea why Shannon and Kanon were dueling, but I could still feel how their story was coming to a close.

And with Sakutarou in EP6, you can already sense that their tale is over; she has Sakutarou back now.


As for Battler... to some this will seem like a crappy answer.... but...

Meta-Battler is on the same level as Featherine. He's a character, possibly the protagonist in the series of novels that Mystery Writer and Hachijou. The story was about him and Beatrice, although Hachijou may be trying to subvert that in EP7 now as stated by her character, Featherine.

What has Detective-Piece-Battler been seeing all this time? Exactly what Sherlock Holmes has been seeing in his stories, a legitimate mystery. The episodes together (and I think as a whole) must still conform to Knox rules and must still be good mysteries.


The difference is though that Battler-Prime and Rokkenjima-Prime... the Ushiromiya-Prime family... and what the REAL events were on that day are not relevant. That stuff is probably lost forever in the two-author's world. Although Mystery Author asks us to find out the truth, I believe that is some kind of deeper understanding of the background situation of the family rather than 'what really happened.'


This doesn't mean that, "Ohhh it's all fake! Let's give up!" There still exists the possibility of discovering the truth through what's presented, even if it's fiction.

Here's a link to my earlier post in case some people missed it regarding the Historical Method theory.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=5168

Alot has been re-hashed out recently... but the relevant part starts after, "My theory is that the layers after EP6 are like this:"
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:14   Link #6989
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, I can at least comment of the first twilight of EP3. Remember when Shannon, Kanon, and Genji are all running towards Kinzo's study? We're then told that "Kanon ran so quietly that he made less sound than the rain when he stepped in puddles". In my experience, that's impossible. Again, not a proof, but a hint.
The 6 people died instantly!
# All of them (referring to five people) had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

In episode 3 Kanon had a gunshot wound in his stomach Shannon had a gunshot wound to the chest. Battler sees Shannon's corpse when George dies and she has not extra wounds when she is found. If Shkanon is true how can Kanon have a gunshot wound to the stomach when he doesn't exist and Shannon does? You can't shoot imaginary people in the stomach and kill them.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-25 at 19:35.
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:18   Link #6990
Arachanox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Sort of a side comment, but

Spoiler for Love:
I know, I should be doing homework, but I can't stay away

So what you're saying is that, as time goes by (EP1 to EP2 etc.), the amount of love increases. As love increases, the resistance of the family members to suspect others of being the culprit also increases (since ideally they all love each other and it MUST be some person X, not beloved brother Y). As their resistance to suspect each other increases, their susceptibility to accept magic as a "way out" increases, so magic scenes and such continue to appear in greater frequency.

Think about it!
EP2 introduced the Stakes and Lambda, as well as meta-fighting.
EP3 introduced Virgilia, Ronove, Eva-Beatrice, Siesta Sisters, Ange-Beatrice, etc., as well as more witch in-fighting
EP4 introduced the whole world of 1998, Gaap, Goldsmith, etc, and a TON of new magic scenes!
EP5 introduced a whole new element into the equation, Erika, as well as Dlanor and Co. and the new magic rules of the Decalogue. The whole magic trial is the epitome of a giant magic scene (or meta).
EP6 don't get me started on the love trial and how blown out of proportions things get.

How to explain this trend?
1. "magic resistance" of the island going down as Beatrice explained?
2. Ryukishi adding new and more twists each time for the sake of the story?
3. Or some Factor X, such as the growth of love or some other mechanism across stories? Is this love growing by itself, or is it being written through increased author awareness of the characters like someone else mentioned?

So many questions!!
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:24   Link #6991
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
The difference is though that Battler-Prime and Rokkenjima-Prime... the Ushiromiya-Prime family... and what the REAL events were on that day are not relevant. That stuff is probably lost forever in the two-author's world. Although Mystery Author asks us to find out the truth, I believe that is some kind of deeper understanding of the background situation of the family rather than 'what really happened.'


This doesn't mean that, "Ohhh it's all fake! Let's give up!" There still exists the possibility of discovering the truth through what's presented, even if it's fiction.
Here's the scary consequence of that though... is Ange's 1998 the only real future? Whatever happened on Rokkenjima-Prime (as you put it, cute nickname for it too), Ushiromiya Ange is alive afterward. She has to be, she wasn't there right? If some mystery author down the line in 1998 or later wanted to write about the aftermath, there's a problem though: Ushiromiya Ange-Prime already exists in the real world and didn't disappear into some closed environment (as far as we know). If I write a story about Abe Lincoln where he doesn't ever become President, people will point that out right away. Of course, I can then say "It's a fictional what-if story," but that's a bit different than taking a cat box and writing a story that pretends to reveal "what happened."

What I mean is, Ange-Prime exists and there is some world for her in which she exists. Other Rokkenjima stories notwithstanding, there's always going to be an aftermath with Ange surviving (but most people probably don't write about it). But if somebody did write about Ange-Prime, are they writing a factual account of her life or is she too being fictionalized? If the latter... well, what's the real Ange-Prime doing?

But... the message bottles suggest Eva dies. And indeed, everywhere but ep3, she does die. But she's alive in Ange-3's world. If Ange-3 is Ange-Prime, then Eva survived in Rokkenjima-Prime. If Ange-3 isn't Ange-Prime, what in the world is 1998-3 supposed to be? Did the author actually write out a fictional history of Ushiromiya Ange's life if Eva had survived Rokkenjima? Why in the world would she do that? Are the Witch Hunters that interested in what some little girl does as she grows up? Does she even grow up in a world where Eva doesn't survive?

What I guess I'm saying is, if you believe it's possible all the stories are fake, it's entirely possible all the people on Rokkenjima lived to 1998-Prime. But you can't prove that, and indeed it seems probable everyone thinks they died. But Ange must exist, or have existed, in the "real" universe. However, only one Ange has ever been written about that we know of. Is she (Ange-3) the real Ange? Is her world (1998-3) the real world?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:28   Link #6992
Kaisos Erranon
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Who says 1998 actually takes place after Ep3's world?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:29   Link #6993
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Yes, I think it's awesome how the characters can develop despite it being a Groundhog Day type story and that we still have no idea what's going on sometimes. I mean, I had no idea why Shannon and Kanon were dueling, but I could still feel how their story was coming to a close.

And with Sakutarou in EP6, you can already sense that their tale is over; she has Sakutarou back now.


As for Battler... to some this will seem like a crappy answer.... but...

Meta-Battler is on the same level as Featherine. He's a character, possibly the protagonist in the series of novels that Mystery Writer and Hachijou. The story was about him and Beatrice, although Hachijou may be trying to subvert that in EP7 now as stated by her character, Featherine.

What has Detective-Piece-Battler been seeing all this time? Exactly what Sherlock Holmes has been seeing in his stories, a legitimate mystery. The episodes together (and I think as a whole) must still conform to Knox rules and must still be good mysteries.


The difference is though that Battler-Prime and Rokkenjima-Prime... the Ushiromiya-Prime family... and what the REAL events were on that day are not relevant. That stuff is probably lost forever in the two-author's world. Although Mystery Author asks us to find out the truth, I believe that is some kind of deeper understanding of the background situation of the family rather than 'what really happened.'


This doesn't mean that, "Ohhh it's all fake! Let's give up!" There still exists the possibility of discovering the truth through what's presented, even if it's fiction.
"
This is making me think that the person (the real person not the meta character) who writes episodes 4- 6 is probably a ghost writer since only 3 bottles were found. I guess we could say that means hachijou is the ghost writer I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who says 1998 actually takes place after Ep3's world?
To say that it's not you'd have to deny Eva exists in 1998 I think because that's the first time anyone returns alive.
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:33   Link #6994
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who says 1998 actually takes place after Ep3's world?
I didn't mean to imply that, merely "the 1998 that appears in episode 3 (and 4 I guess)" We know that in this world, Eva survived. How she survived may have nothing whatsoever to do with 1986-3. But she survived. That much is kinda hard to deny. Ange morosely suggests that if Eva hadn't survived, the Sumadera family might have killed her as a child. Though Ange is not exactly Little Miss Sunshine and Lollipops when it comes to speculation.
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:37   Link #6995
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I didn't mean to imply that, merely "the 1998 that appears in episode 3 (and 4 I guess)" We know that in this world, Eva survived. How she survived may have nothing whatsoever to do with 1986-3. But she survived. That much is kinda hard to deny. Ange morosely suggests that if Eva hadn't survived, the Sumadera family might have killed her as a child. Though Ange is not exactly Little Miss Sunshine and Lollipops when it comes to speculation.
This might be a far-fetched theory (lol what isnt?), but I think that Eva did survive in the real world.
Spoiler for Eva:
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:39   Link #6996
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I didn't mean to imply that, merely "the 1998 that appears in episode 3 (and 4 I guess)" We know that in this world, Eva survived. How she survived may have nothing whatsoever to do with 1986-3. But she survived. That much is kinda hard to deny. Ange morosely suggests that if Eva hadn't survived, the Sumadera family might have killed her as a child. Though Ange is not exactly Little Miss Sunshine and Lollipops when it comes to speculation.
This is exactly my point; If 1998 is the real world, then regarding the real Rokkenjima Event (which we know nothing about), Eva must have survived, putting Ep3 as the closest game to... actually, come to think of it, the only confirmation that Eva actually survived was the Ep3 Tea Party, wasn't it?

What if Eva didn't survive Ep3 at all? What if she only survived in the real world?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:39   Link #6997
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But Ange must exist, or have existed, in the "real" universe. However, only one Ange has ever been written about that we know of. Is she (Ange-3) the real Ange? Is her world (1998-3) the real world?
Definitely it seems that Ange survived in all the episodes and that most likely means Ange-Prime survived. However... I think there was something in EP6 which said that 'this Ange isn't the same as that (EP3) Ange' or something... so I took that to mean that the Ange that visited Hachijou never lived with Eva? I don't know enough to to say for certain.

It does tend to suggest that Eva surviving might have violated the actual results of the people in Hachijou/Mystery Writer's world. But I'm wondering if that too is irrelevant. People will say, "Hey, that didn't happen!" but even still the author is dropping clues about whatever the truth is.


This is sorta like Dan Brown's story The Da Vinci Code. He suffered from a lot of historical inaccuracies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Da_...l_inaccuracies) but it's not to say the fiction within could not also provide some merit. You would question how good he is as an author though. In the same way, I'd question how good Hachijou is as well...
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:47   Link #6998
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This is making me think that the person (the real person not the meta character) who writes episodes 4- 6 is probably a ghost writer since only 3 bottles were found. I guess we could say that means hachijou is the ghost writer I don't know.
Hachijou claims to have been the writer of EP3-6. Now... there's no guarantee what she says is true. 8) Or that she is even a good writer. 8)


Anyways, regardless of what's going in the real world, I was thinking we could try solving the mystery from this end.

If you take all the clues from the episodes to sort back to the truth that they're hinting to, that would be a bottom up approach. Instead, if you go top-down, you work out who the mystery writer is and work out what that writer wants you to know? So... who could be the writer? It is someone with feminine writing, a relationship with Maria and has intimate knowledge of the situation, right? Shannon? Kanon? Kumasawa?
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:48   Link #6999
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Who says 1998 actually takes place after Ep3's world?
Spoiler for EP 6:


And, as everyone else already said, Ange would be tortured to death if Eva wasn't around to adopt her. Kasumi would become the legal guardian as the closest living relative to Ange. Of course, there is Kyrie's father, but at the same time Kasumi would find a way to take Ange from him since he is also part of the Sumadera family legally.
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Old 2010-03-24, 21:57   Link #7000
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
If you take all the clues from the episodes to sort back to the truth that they're hinting to, that would be a bottom up approach. Instead, if you go top-down, you work out who the mystery writer is and work out what that writer wants you to know? So... who could be the writer? It is someone with feminine writing, a relationship with Maria and has intimate knowledge of the situation, right? Shannon? Kanon? Kumasawa?
I like this idea! It sounds so interesting! What I've been suspecting is that the end of Umineko is going to be where Ange finds the truth and solves the mystery in 1998. Since there is very little evidence in 1998 of a murder scheme, and a lot of evidence for it to be an accident it seems like a better idea to find a way for her to solve it, which would take a miracle since all the evidence was destroyed except for Maria's jaw, mammon, and the bottles.

It also explains why Meta Ange reappears and talks to Featherine in episode 6. It's kind of like Durarara. Mikado was that pseudo protagonist he was made to look like the protagonist and was given a lot of character development in the novel, but the real protagonist turned out to really Celty Strulson the Duhullulin. In Umineko the real protagonist should be Ange if we go by this kind of writing . Actually this happens in Higurashi too! Keiichi was the fake protagonist and we learn that Rika is the real protagonist of the story later.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-24 at 22:08.
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