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Old 2010-04-04, 21:58   Link #61
germanturkey
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by god, they better animate chapter 32. currently on 33... i'm loving it. also, i hope we get some Usui development. we know next to nothing about him.
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Old 2010-04-04, 22:54   Link #62
Sol Falling
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Usui development has finally arrived starting with around ch. 42...we're currently right in the middle of it, so the wait might be even more painful once you get there.

Although I like the idea of a one chapter per episode pacing, story-wise ch. 32 probably is the best climax to close off the season. I'm having trouble thinking of any better story points in the 24-26 range, so I'm guessing we probably will end up with a couple chapters stuffed between episodes. 32 really is wonderful though, so yeah I'm hoping for that as well.
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Old 2010-04-05, 00:03   Link #63
LordDemon
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I hope we go past 32, as part of the charm of Maid-sama is the fact we get to see Usui and Misaki grow together after they've acknowledged each other's feelings.

That and i want that damn Pocky scene. And the hug scene. And the date. Damn, I'm greedy, but I want it all animated, and based on chibi Usui being in the ending, we will see them.
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Old 2010-04-05, 00:23   Link #64
germanturkey
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the pocky scene was by far the best thing. especially with Misaki pulling Usui's tie, you could tell her true feelings. then the hug scene. it was done so well contrasting with You's.

yeah, upon watching the ED, you can see they get to the fireworks..
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Last edited by germanturkey; 2010-04-05 at 00:37.
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Old 2010-04-05, 23:19   Link #65
germanturkey
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man, there's so much to discuss about this manga but no one to discuss it with is there any word on how long its supposed to run? they'll probably splice in the election and the corresponding events in chapter 39 somewhere near the end i'll assume. since the manga is still on going, they'll probably leave it open ended but with a resolute "they're a couple" statement. which leads me to think the couple competition/fireworks chapter.
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Old 2010-04-06, 02:14   Link #66
Mentar
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I think we should be able to predict the ending point after 5-6 episodes, to see how speedy they progress.

If they end with the fireworks, they'll have a fairly sweet conclusion, but it would also be sad - because this is the starting point where KWMS kicks up its game considerably.
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Old 2010-04-15, 13:19   Link #67
Inarius
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how many of you believe that Tora Igarashi may actually be the big brother Usui's been talking about?
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Old 2010-04-15, 14:14   Link #68
Sol Falling
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It's impossible. 1) Tora is the same age as Usui, and 2) Usui's brother is half-British. Furthermore, if we listen to Usui's description of his background, his mother (and therefore his half-brother) was part of a prominent British family, not Japanese like the Igarashis.
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Old 2010-04-15, 14:19   Link #69
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oh....well I can't wait to find out just what kind of a relationship those two have haha
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Old 2010-04-17, 03:03   Link #70
Sol Falling
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And...the long-awaited chapter 48 is finally out. Said relationship with Maria and Tora Igarashi is finally revealed! (Or at least, most of it.) Yeah, I've been feeling the suspense too.

Spoiler for 48:
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Old 2010-04-18, 09:35   Link #71
hoofy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Spoiler for 48:
Having the anime refresh my memories of some of the things Misaki said in the earlier chapters ... I'd say ...
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-04-18, 13:47   Link #72
germanturkey
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decent chapter. the dawww moment wasn't really that good this time around. but good development. Misaki's reaction when Usui said he would go speaks volumes about her feelings. its a shame this is a monthly...
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Old 2010-04-18, 14:31   Link #73
Darknemo2000
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Pretty good chapter, though nothing really 'awww' worthy, but maybe the foot massage part, though i would have preferred Misaki being more gentle on that, though again, I guess you can't ask from a tsundere (Misaki) more.
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Old 2010-05-15, 12:01   Link #74
TJR
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Massive skip coming right up. Ep. 9 appears to cover the third sidestory, while Ep. 10 covers Ch. 20.
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Old 2010-05-15, 21:04   Link #75
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Massive skip coming right up. Ep. 9 appears to cover the third sidestory, while Ep. 10 covers Ch. 20.
Ugh...is this confirmed from magazine previews or something? It's not like this would be terrible, but I really wish they'd stop fiddling with the continuity like this. Ch. 20 isn't a chapter with major plot developments or anything, so it basically looks like they're just trying to shift up the introduction of a new character again, but they are totally screwing up the flow of Misaki's emotional developments with stunts like these.

(Sidestory 3 would also be much better placed in it's proper story context along with ch. 15-17.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven View Post
That is an pretty big skip(How many total episodes is this series?). I want to see chapters 18 and 19 get animated. Wonder why they'll skipping chapters.
I think it was mentioned before that it's expected for this to be from 24-26 episodes. As far as cutting 18-19 goes, though, I'm pretty confident they'll come back and cover it. Like I mentioned above, the main point of chapter 20 is to introduce
Spoiler for new character:
, so there aren't many major connections to other plot developments. I think this'll be a similar break like episodes 3 and 4 before they get back to the main story.

In terms of the skipped material,
Spoiler for principle character for ch. 15-17:
is present in the OP so I'm almost definately sure they will go back to cover that arc. If they do do that, it's pretty much a given that they'll include the awesome romantic development from ch. 18-19 as well (not to mention, there are some parallels with the even awesomer developments in ch. 32...so yeah, it's important). I think this time skip is basically just J.C. Staff deciding to pointlessly jump around again.


lol, anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Only until recently they've expanded Usui's character in the source? *facepalm*
Well, in terms of his background specifically, and significant character development apart from his growing relationship with Misaki, yes. To be fair, though, Usui's identity is one of the major mysteries this series builds up, and I think his incredible chemistry and romantic connection with Misaki is the more important aspect anyway. Romantic development, on the parts of both Usui and Misaki, in fact abounds, and should be the main draw of this series. With the way the anime bungled Usui's characterization in episodes 2 and 5 (and, to an only somewhat lesser degree, here in episode 7 as well), however, I really think that might be the main reason you aren't feeling for him.

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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I second that. I dare say, she's the hottest "guy" in this anime. I'd go gay for her.
:P Going gay for a girl dressed up as a guy, might not end up being so gay after all...The influx of these kinds of comments somewhat troubles me, though. Usui should be consistently waaay hotter than Misaki (dressed as a guy) can really hope to be; it's not even a question for manga readers. The fact that Misaki is so easily able to overtake him for so many viewers here seems to be bit of a reflection of J.C. Staff's failure to make Usui's 'sexy' scenes actually sexy.

Quote:
The problem is that "Gary Stu-ish perfection" is the thing we see 98% of the time from him, at least in the anime. If it weren't for all your postive posts about Usui and the manga hinting, I would probably hate the guy already . Well, maybe not hate, since he also has a funny side and he isn't 100% perfect (though dangerously close to it).
When the other guy started to talk about playing chess, I just knew Usui was going to be the one competing with him, and of course beating him easily no matter what the other guy's level is. Is there anything Usui can't do? :3

And I'm having mixed feelings about the way he treats Misaki. Sometimes, he can be surprisingly considerate, and other times he just acts like a jerk, like at the end of this episode. Even if he's just teasing her/joking, he should know what Misaki's limits are already. Those are the kind of moments that make me dislike him.
This latter point you made is concerning too. Like I mentioned earlier, Misaki's "I hate you!" wasn't actually the original ending to Usui's 'seme/attack' scene. In terms of characterization, you shouldn't really ever be feeling like Usui is being a jerk--in the manga, the actual thing that lead up to Misaki's "I hate you" outburst was Usui (somewhat lightly, but still genuinely) being honest about his feelings for her--and he only even did that to help Misaki out of a predicament in the first place. As such, Misaki's outburst stemmed moreso from her own denial that Usui might really like her than actual harassment from Usui--in fact, one subtle thing in terms of Usui's characterization that I expect still to be carried through going forward is that Usui becomes minorly traumatised by this event (Misaki saying she hates him). As such, the aggressive tension which the anime showed as Usui's response to this incident, with his clenched fists and tightened back and everything, should be in fact entirely off-base as to Usui's future behaviour.

Back to the Gary-Stu thing though. You're right about Usui being the solution to the chess challenge dilemma being very predictable, but like I mentioned, Usui's experience in playing chess means in fact a tiny bit more than Usui apparently simply being good at everything.
Spoiler for hint as to Usui's background:
As far as whether there's anything Usui can't do: well, at least thus far in the anime and manga, we haven't seen any hints of Usui sporting any sort of universal proficiency at steering vehicles, for example :P. (In Detective Conan, 16/17 year old Shinichi (who's also pretty awesome btw) apparently has training in piloting anything from cars to motorboats to helicoptors) To be honest, I basically consider Usui's abilities, aside from some of the physical aspects when they are being comedically exaggerated, to be achievable within the realm of humanity. Usui's win over the chess club President, for example, wasn't precisely an 'easy' one; in the manga, when Misaki asks on the bus ride home, Usui admits that Koganei was "very good".
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Kill la Kill 75/5 :: Sakura Trick 100/5 :: Saki Zenkoku-hen 100/5 :: HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Mushishi OVA 100/5
Spring:
Stardust Crusaders 100/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 20/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 15/5 :: Gochiusa 28/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 20/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Great shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-05-15 at 21:17.
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Old 2010-05-16, 02:40   Link #76
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
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Okay - I have been a bit quiet over the last episodes in order to avoid getting into pointless tiffs over trivialities, but I'm afraid it can't be avoided anymore. Too many misleading statements here I need to confront.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Ugh...is this confirmed from magazine previews or something? It's not like this would be terrible, but I really wish they'd stop fiddling with the continuity like this. Ch. 20 isn't a chapter with major plot developments or anything, so it basically looks like they're just trying to shift up the introduction of a new character again, but they are totally screwing up the flow of Misaki's emotional developments with stunts like these.
I disagree, it's rather the opposite. What J.C.Staff has been doing in the initial episode was to lay a bigger foundation for the critical stolen kiss and the subsequent camouflage kiss with Yukimura. In the manga, it already happened in chapter 4, way way waaaaay too early (possibly based on the need of the author to do something extraordinary early to increase interest in his show). In the anime, dealings between Misaki and Usui have already become a bit more familiar, so developmentwise, it fit better.

Quote:
I think it was mentioned before that it's expected for this to be from 24-26 episodes. As far as cutting 18-19 goes, though, I'm pretty confident they'll come back and cover it.
Agreed. It would fit better at a later stage of the Misaki-Usui development anyway and feel completely out of touch now.

Quote:
In terms of the skipped material,
Spoiler for principle character for ch. 15-17:
is present in the OP so I'm almost definately sure they will go back to cover that arc. If they do do that, it's pretty much a given that they'll include the awesome romantic development from ch. 18-19 as well (not to mention, there are some parallels with the even awesomer developments in ch. 32...so yeah, it's important). I think this time skip is basically just J.C. Staff deciding to pointlessly jump around again.
No, what they're obviously doing is trying to save time by combining elements of various roughly related chapters to save time. After all, we have to try to get to the juicy later chapters, and by simply going 2 chapters per ep, we won't get there. Furthermore, it's obvious that they're also trying to keep all prime elements in each episode: Some school activity, some Maid latte activity, some interpersonal development between Misaki and Usui.

And especially on the latter, the development is certainly more gradual in the anime compared to the manga, which is often a little haphazard-jumpy in this aspect.

Quote:
Well, in terms of his background specifically, and significant character development apart from his growing relationship with Misaki, yes. To be fair, though, Usui's identity is one of the major mysteries this series builds up, and I think his incredible chemistry and romantic connection with Misaki is the more important aspect anyway. Romantic development, on the parts of both Usui and Misaki, in fact abounds, and should be the main draw of this series. With the way the anime bungled Usui's characterization in episodes 2 and 5 (and, to an only somewhat lesser degree, here in episode 7 as well), however, I really think that might be the main reason you aren't feeling for him.
What makes you feel that they "bungled" his characterization? Specifics, please.

And in my opinion, the fact that not everybody is so totally fanboying for Usui yet is an indication that the anime is doing just fine. Because objectively, Usui _is_ acting like a jerk - particularly from Misaki's perspective. We'll get to that later.

Quote:
:P Going gay for a girl dressed up as a guy, might not end up being so gay after all...The influx of these kinds of comments somewhat troubles me, though. Usui should be consistently waaay hotter than Misaki (dressed as a guy) can really hope to be; it's not even a question for manga readers. The fact that Misaki is so easily able to overtake him for so many viewers here seems to be bit of a reflection of J.C. Staff's failure to make Usui's 'sexy' scenes actually sexy.
In case you haven't noticed, the majority of readers here is male, and "sexy Usui scenes" are usually not what we're looking for. They certainly won't make me like him more.

Quote:
This latter point you made is concerning too. Like I mentioned earlier, Misaki's "I hate you!" wasn't actually the original ending to Usui's 'seme/attack' scene. In terms of characterization, you shouldn't really ever be feeling like Usui is being a jerk--
And THIS was the line which caused me to reply, because I _strongly_ disagree with this, to a degree that I did a double-take when I read this. Usui is _constantly_ being a jerk in one way or another, _particularly_ from the limited perspective of Misaki.

Spoiler for I need to spoilertag this, since it discusses the story progression in a general, non-specific way:


Quote:
in the manga, the actual thing that lead up to Misaki's "I hate you" outburst was Usui (somewhat lightly, but still genuinely) being honest about his feelings for her--and he only even did that to help Misaki out of a predicament in the first place.
Not sure why you're singling out one scene. Her "I hate you" outbursts are legion in the manga. And they totally fit into the anime progression of their relationship. They started off rocky, but Misaki was gradually beginning to realize that he's trying to help her. Again and again. She realizes he's doing things for her. She realizes she's beginning to rely on him. And then, he confesses to her, steals a kiss and does something completely outrageous for her. This is throwing man-hating Misaki completely off track, since she's struggling with it. And so, he decides to "reset" her with the Yukimura kiss, playing off his own confession as a mere whim. And if Misaki EVER had a reason to hate Usui's guts, then it would be NOW. She feels foolish for believing him genuine for a mere minute, since he is obviously just toying around with her, and she hates that he still manages to push her off-balance. Their relationship is on a low point. And so, this rejection scene BELONGS here.

Quote:
As such, Misaki's outburst stemmed moreso from her own denial that Usui might really like her than actual harassment from Usui--in fact, one subtle thing in terms of Usui's characterization that I expect still to be carried through going forward is that Usui becomes minorly traumatised by this event (Misaki saying she hates him).
First of all, she didn't do that in the episode. She didn't said that she hated him in the end. She only said that she had enough of this, of his messing around with her, in a low, wounded voice. This has much more impact on him than the kind of "Daikiraiiiii!!" yell from the end of the last episode. Because Usui realizes that while he might have succeeded in taking Misaki's mind off his confession, he also genuinely hurt her. And this is why he's shown lost in thoughts in the end with an unhappy look in his eyes.

Quote:
As such, the aggressive tension which the anime showed as Usui's response to this incident, with his clenched fists and tightened back and everything, should be in fact entirely off-base as to Usui's future behaviour.
That's debatable. The manga also shows Usui slamming his hand against the wall, trapping the cowering Misaki, so the anime stayed very true to the original source. The thing is that after purposely presenting himself as an aggressive nondiscriminate kiss-snatcher, he's coming on to Misaki yet again, hard. So much for your "you shouldn't really EVER feel that Usui is a jerk" line. He _is_ a jerk. And Misaki's reaction to it is 100% understandable.
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Old 2010-05-16, 10:34   Link #77
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Okay - I have been a bit quiet over the last episodes in order to avoid getting into pointless tiffs over trivialities, but I'm afraid it can't be avoided anymore. Too many misleading statements here I need to confront.
I encourage you then to take part in this thread in aspects aside from your apparent need to 'confront' these 'misleading statements'. If you are enjoying each episode, then even simple individual statements to that effect will be valuable to this thread, no 'pointless tiffs over trivialities' involved.

Quote:
I disagree, it's rather the opposite. What J.C.Staff has been doing in the initial episode was to lay a bigger foundation for the critical stolen kiss and the subsequent camouflage kiss with Yukimura. In the manga, it already happened in chapter 4, way way waaaaay too early (possibly based on the need of the author to do something extraordinary early to increase interest in his show). In the anime, dealings between Misaki and Usui have already become a bit more familiar, so developmentwise, it fit better.
I'm sorry, but are you seriously even a fan of this title? No discussions I've encountered about this series have ever complained about chapter 4's kiss having come 'too early'. Usui kissing Misaki in chapter 4 makes sense precisely because he is not yet familiar with her--after he subsequently realizes that Misaki isn't ready for a relationship in chapter 5, then is when their relationship starts recieving all that meaningful platonic development. Telling me that Usui felt compelled to confess to Misaki after realizing the way she brightened up his life naturally in chapter 11/episode 3 (i.e. without any need for an explicit romantic relationship), as opposed to before when all he knew was that she was something new and extraordinary and fascinating to him, makes no sense at all. It's the mark of Usui the man that he moved fast in confessing to her. It's the mark of Usui the lover that it means so much for him just getting to know her.

Quote:
Agreed. It would fit better at a later stage of the Misaki-Usui development anyway and feel completely out of touch now.
Ch. 18-19 would go great in their proper place in the story, which would be, yes, quite a few episodes from now, but also before ch. 20. I don't think anybody mentioned wanting ch. 18-19 now.

Quote:
No, what they're obviously doing is trying to save time by combining elements of various roughly related chapters to save time. After all, we have to try to get to the juicy later chapters, and by simply going 2 chapters per ep, we won't get there. Furthermore, it's obvious that they're also trying to keep all prime elements in each episode: Some school activity, some Maid latte activity, some interpersonal development between Misaki and Usui.

And especially on the latter, the development is certainly more gradual in the anime compared to the manga, which is often a little haphazard-jumpy in this aspect.
How does jumping around the continuity 'save time'? They are still (apparently) covering all the material anyway. Hell, they're even animating a fantasy/dream-sequence sidestory. Saving time has nothing to do with it. Unless they start cutting material, we are clearly aiming for a ~32-34 chapter mark here (this is also more than good enough in my opinion).

You might do well to provide some actual examples of haphazard/jumpy development from the manga, for that matter. If you actually follow the development, it shouldn't be jumpy at all. With the 'early kiss' issue you brought up above, for example, ch. 5 actually establishes the developmental frame for like the next several dozen chapters. That's what makes chapters 1-4 setup and introduction (and most of the rest of the first ten chapters too for that matter), and chapters from maybe 9 and up development. Throwing interpersonal development chapters smack in the middle of the introduction doesn't make the story more gradual at all.

Quote:
What makes you feel that they "bungled" his characterization? Specifics, please.
You should refer to my impression posts for the episodes I mentioned for those.

Quote:
In case you haven't noticed, the majority of readers here is male, and "sexy Usui scenes" are usually not what we're looking for. They certainly won't make me like him more.
I'm sorry? Isn't this a shoujo manga and anime? I expect just a tiny bit more appreciation for male characters as something beyond simple audience stand-ins. Even for guys, the important point in conveying Usui's attractiveness is plausibility. If lots of people seriously think Misaki is a hotter guy than Usui, and I'm not talking about going 'gay' for her here because only one person even mentioned that, then the anime is doing something wrong.

Furthermore, one of the principle things that makes Usui a likeable character in the first place is that he's a good lover. He appeals to girls, and he appeals to the part of guys that wants to make girls happy. Attractiveness is one key factor in this. The more attractive you are, the more happy your girlfriend will be to be with you. That's why properly conveying Usui's hawtness should be an obvious priority.

Quote:
And in my opinion, the fact that not everybody is so totally fanboying for Usui yet is an indication that the anime is doing just fine. Because objectively, Usui _is_ acting like a jerk - particularly from Misaki's perspective. We'll get to that later.

...

And THIS was the line which caused me to reply, because I _strongly_ disagree with this, to a degree that I did a double-take when I read this. Usui is _constantly_ being a jerk in one way or another, _particularly_ from the limited perspective of Misaki.

Spoiler for I need to spoilertag this, since it discusses the story progression in a general, non-specific way:
From Misaki's perspective? There are, like, three instances in the entire series where Misaki becomes genuinely upset with him. Hell, even after Usui physically assaulted her in chapter 3/episode 5, Misaki's only reaction is "you'd get a lawsuit if I were anyone else". Misaki implicitly assumes Usui's harmlessness and/or good intentions, 'rocky start' or nothing. This is in fact the reason why she allows him to assimilate himself so thouroughly into all aspects of her life. From Misaki's perspective, Usui's minor teases, harassments, and constant flirtations are just precisely that: minor. To call him a jerk over them is ridiculous.

We shouldn't even be talking about Misaki's perspective in the first place though--my statement was: from the audience's perspective, Usui should never appear jerkish. If even Misaki implicitly assumes Usui's harmlessness/good intentions, then for we the audience, that should apply even moreso. You yourself admit that, in basically any instance where Usui appears to be acting like a jerk to her, he is in fact usually acting for her benefit. As observers given third person insight into Usui's character, if the story is being communicated correctly, this pattern should become more than obvious.

With regards to your spoiler:
Spoiler for response:


Quote:
Not sure why you're singling out one scene. Her "I hate you" outbursts are legion in the manga. And they totally fit into the anime progression of their relationship. They started off rocky, but Misaki was gradually beginning to realize that he's trying to help her. Again and again. She realizes he's doing things for her. She realizes she's beginning to rely on him. And then, he confesses to her, steals a kiss and does something completely outrageous for her. This is throwing man-hating Misaki completely off track, since she's struggling with it. And so, he decides to "reset" her with the Yukimura kiss, playing off his own confession as a mere whim. And if Misaki EVER had a reason to hate Usui's guts, then it would be NOW. She feels foolish for believing him genuine for a mere minute, since he is obviously just toying around with her, and she hates that he still manages to push her off-balance. Their relationship is on a low point. And so, this rejection scene BELONGS here.

First of all, she didn't do that in the episode. She didn't said that she hated him in the end. She only said that she had enough of this, of his messing around with her, in a low, wounded voice. This has much more impact on him than the kind of "Daikiraiiiii!!" yell from the end of the last episode. Because Usui realizes that while he might have succeeded in taking Misaki's mind off his confession, he also genuinely hurt her. And this is why he's shown lost in thoughts in the end with an unhappy look in his eyes.
I'm singling out the one scene because it's altered from the manga, and the reasoning for it is obviously to compensate for the lack of another scene, which they cut due to lack of time (one which incidentally also contains an emphatic "I hate you!!!", incomparable to the other minor instances you were talking about, and which also had the effect of actually minorly traumatising Usui). Again, Misaki has only ever truly gotten upset with Usui a rare three times in the series; and one of those instances, is this particular scene which was cut from chapter 7. The motivation for changing the end of Usui's 'this is what being a seme means' scene to one that involved an increase in tension and Misaki having a major outburst against Usui was in order to cover this particular developmental point. As such, as the rejection scene was originally in the manga: yes, one obviously belongs around here somewhere. However, the point is that by splicing that rejection scene onto this particular seme/'attack-type' exchange between Usui and Misaki, at least one viewer got the impression that Usui is a jerk who doesn't understand/respect Misaki's boundaries. The event which actually lead to Misaki's outburst in the manga, however, had nothing to do at all with Misaki being subjected to the harassment of an 'attack-type'. Instead, Usui was in fact helping her by protecting her identity (by pretending they were a pair of lovers who didn't want to be bothered), resulting in him successfully driving the threat away. As such, Misaki's extremely negative reaction (going as far as "I hate you!!!") was portrayed as a clearly disproportionate outburst. It is this fact, since the anime evidentally communicates jerkishness on the part of Usui rather than Misaki's doubts and insecurities as intended, which makes the rushed omission of that scene a miss.

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That's debatable. The manga also shows Usui slamming his hand against the wall, trapping the cowering Misaki, so the anime stayed very true to the original source. The thing is that after purposely presenting himself as an aggressive nondiscriminate kiss-snatcher, he's coming on to Misaki yet again, hard. So much for your "you shouldn't really EVER feel that Usui is a jerk" line. He _is_ a jerk. And Misaki's reaction to it is 100% understandable.
Your use of the word 'jerk' here is clearly seperate from the context I was originally addressing. 100% understandable or not, Misaki's reaction was not even the one she had in the manga. Given this fact, what exactly made Usui a 'jerk' in this scene: his actions in isolation, or Misaki's extreme reaction to them? Clearly, for the poster I was discussing this with, it was the latter (i.e., the fact that Usui stepped over Misaki's 'boundaries'). Clearly for the mangaka as well, Usui's actions were not originally supposed to make Misaki react negatively to him.

As far as your interpretation of the scene being about Usui 'coming onto' Misaki, the actual characterization surrounding that exchange makes it anything but. Usui had no intention of making implications of any kind towards Misaki--the manga context shows he was simply bringing her back to reality. Misaki had been babbling on about how awesome it was to dress like a guy and have girls fawning over her, her cluelessness as to otaku/fujoshi culture blinding her as usual. Usui's actions were nothing more than a reality check as to what she was really saying. The fact that Usui obviously was not deriving any of the amusement he supposedly gets from harassing Misaki is what makes this obvious; incidentally, this is also what makes Misaki take him seriously, and why there was no 'stop harassing me' outburst from her in the manga. Usui's supposed 'jerkiness' here (the criterion I'm using is disrespect for Misaki's desires, wellbeing, or comfort boundaries--I won't accept any semantics fiddling) thus should naturally be nowhere present.

Anyway, you also seem to be talking about Usui 'presenting himself as a non-discriminate kiss-snatcher' like it's a jerkish action in itself. Please explain to me how? Go back to what I wrote a couple posts ago about how that was an action made strictly for Misaki's benefit. Do you really think Usui ever actually pushes Misaki anywhere she doesn't want to go? This anime version of events might, by accident, have supported this particular claim as to Usui's jerkishness, but it has no basis within the actual non-rushed manga story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rg4619 View Post
I think that's a rather naive way of looking at it. Whether this was decided by the director or the production committee, there's a clear intention to downplay male "sexiness", presumably to make the show more palatable for a different audience (not an unsurprising idea given all the otaku/moe hooks). There's some hope that hardcore otaku will give the series a chance instead of writing it off like other shoujo series.

Similarly, the on-going Durarara! was adjusted to reel in a fujoshi audience.
If that's indeed the case, I guess you can call me naive, but that doesn't help this anime's position any. As we've somewhat seen from around here, Maid-sama already seems to have a fairly sizeable male fanbase outside its normal shoujo demographic. Screwing over the singularly most vital component for this show's original/guaranteed female audience in order to hook in a dubious moe otaku crowd thus sounds pretty damn unnecessary. The actual strength of this series lies in its romance, not its somewhat questionable capacity for fanservice, and for the former, they require its strong male lead. I mean hey, at least Durarara didn't make it's characters uglier, y'know?

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Reverse traps have always enjoyed some popularity with male fans. It isn't because viewers have homosexual tendencies, but rather the balance between femininity and masculinity weighs strongly enough toward the former that they know the character can't truly be a guy. Usui would never become an object of desire, unless the animators gave him a complete feminine makeover.
I never said people should go gay for Usui, just that he should be de facto hotter than Misaki by any standards of male beauty. Since the homosexuality issue keeps coming up though, I guess I might be misinterpreting the earlier statements.

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Yeah, structurally, the show wouldn't work so well if they opted for a blow by blow adaptation (especially given how long the manga spins its wheels). This is one series where some significant rearrangement would help, although it's certainly going to be a tough job.

As always, I'd also like to remind everyone that neither J.C. Staff nor Hiroaki Sakurai are responsible for preparing the scripts and story structure. That's Mamiko Ikeda's job, and as such, there's little reason to draw conclusions based on how another team's show was handled (and I don't think anyone could possibly argue that, say, Railgun, Aoi Hana, Hayate 2, and Uraboku were adapted with the same methodology. You can go ahead and cherry pick certain shows all you like, but it's ignorant).
Grouping chronologically related chapters together makes obvious sense. Shifting non-related future chapters arbitrarily together which creates filler, does not. I don't think this series could 'use' rearrangement of the latter type at all. It's not like J.C. Staff is even sensibly doing the first, though. 2 chapters per episode would, at this moment, have been enough to cover the entire manga series. As things are, like I mention above, I think we're looking at an actual estimate of perhaps 32-34 chapters. If they'd decided to even things out a little, a general average of 1.4 chapters/episode would have been entirely reasonable. Instead though, 5/7 episodes thus far have been 'blow by blow' single-chapter adaptations, while the latest one has three. Frankly, I wouldn't say this any of this stuff actually manages to be 'time-saving'; it's just a mess.
__________________
Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
Kill la Kill 75/5 :: Sakura Trick 100/5 :: Saki Zenkoku-hen 100/5 :: HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Mushishi OVA 100/5
Spring:
Stardust Crusaders 100/5 :: Mushishi S2 100/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 20/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 15/5 :: Gochiusa 28/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 20/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Great shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-05-17 at 23:44.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:43   Link #78
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Age: 44
Only the important parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I'm sorry, but are you seriously even a fan of this title? [...] It's the mark of Usui the man that he moved fast in confessing to her. It's the mark of Usui the lover that it means so much for him just getting to know her.
Strange how a self-proclaimed "fan" can get the yet-unresolved core issue of Usui so wrong.

Spoiler for Major spoiler, stay away if you don't know the manga. Really.:


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You might do well to provide some actual examples of haphazard/jumpy development from the manga, for that matter. If you actually follow the development, it shouldn't be jumpy at all.
Oh please. Up to the higher 20es we're randomly alternating between Usui getting away with Misaki tolerating major familiarity infractions and Misaki entering combat mode when Usui merely looks at her funny. There is very little lasting development going on, it's rather "issue of the week". And then, something wonderful happens, and the interrelationship development begins to crystallize and begins to develop a "memory". The way they act towards each other in chapter n+1 is directly related to how chapter n ended (other than before).

Now what the anime has been doing was to sort the chapters in a way that Usui does NOT look like a whimsical-spontaneous stalker anymore (in the manga, he had started to take notice of Misaki end of c1 and confessed and jumped off the roof at c4 - which is pretty crazy in MY opinion. In the anime, he at least had spent more time with Misaki and understood her a bit more).

So, if you regret this change, so be it - your prerogative. I prefer the anime version, which shows a more believable development timeline.

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I'm sorry? Isn't this a shoujo manga and anime? I expect just a tiny bit more appreciation for male characters as something beyond simple audience stand-ins. Even for guys, the important point in conveying Usui's attractiveness is plausibility. If lots of people seriously think Misaki is a hotter guy than Usui, and I'm not talking about going 'gay' for her here because only one person even mentioned that, then the anime is doing something wrong.
That it's a shoujo manga doesn't change the readers' sexual orientation. You seem to think that had only Usui been animated "sexier", then this would have improved the anime viewers' opinion of him, and I seriously don't think so. Pretty guys don't excite me or make me like them more, and to expect that seems strange to me. So, KNOWING that Misaki is a girl, I'd naturally prefer her in he "guy" disguise still.

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Furthermore, one of the principle things that makes Usui a likeable character in the first place is that he's a good lover. He appeals to girls, and he appeals to the part of guys that wants to make girls happy.
No, he is not. He is no "good lover" in the least. He appeals to the girls due to his good looks, but he's sent away ALL of them crying. And he absolutely does NOT try to make Misaki happy, he is trying to rile her up. To unbalance her. He loves teasing her and watching her when she struggles. Yes, he'll help her whenever she's in trouble, so he's fulfilling the PROTECTIVE aspect. But a "good lover" he is NOT. He doesn't want to be one (see above).

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Attractiveness is one key factor in this. The more attractive you are, the more happy your girlfriend will be to be with you. That's why properly conveying Usui's hawtness should be an obvious priority.
And they did. It's just you who for some crazy reason believes that because anime viewers have a more balanced view on him (instead of your extremely positive one), that's because the anime failed to underline his physical attractiveness. I don't think so.

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From Misaki's perspective? There are, like, three instances in the entire series where Misaki becomes genuinely upset with him.
You're crazy.

What constitutes "genuinely upset" with him, then? Physical violence? Tears? Shouting? Or only if all of that happens combined at the same time?

You make it sound as if Usui's constant efforts to get under Misaki's skin are just playful happy escapades of a lovey-dovey couple. They are NOT. Misaki is constantly struggling, HARD. She is constantly upset with him, but she doesn't always make a big issue out of it, because she DOES gradually develop feelings for him. However, the way he continues to treat her - what he does and does NOT - never gives her peace of mind.

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From Misaki's perspective, Usui's minor teases, harassments, and constant flirtations are just precisely that: minor. To call him a jerk over them is ridiculous.
With my manga knowledge, I can say: Usui is a gigantic jerk. A likable one, and seeing Misaki and him go is absolutely enjoyable for us viewers, but he is most definitely a jerk nevertheless.

Essentially, Usui is concentrating on his own pleasure of messing with Misaki and watching her struggle. The asymmetry of their relationship is emphasized by the fact that the normal ending to their tiffs is that Usui is smugly smirking while Misaki is usually angrily yelling and all too often embarrassed and frustrated, sometimes down to tears. Yes, Usui will intervene whenever Misaki is about to get in trouble. And Usui is FINE with these endings: It's not like they're in a loving relationship in which you make sure that before going to sleep, you kiss and make up. Take ep7 for example: Had Misaki not shot him down - quietly and bitterly - he would have gone home satisfied that he had showed her. With his bare-chested attack on Misaki, who was still shaky due to her "reset misunderstanding" that Usui consciously created. A true jerk indeed.

It's one thing to tease who you love (and Usui DOES love her, but he consciously refuses to take over the duties of a lover), but I dislike the emotional strain which he constantly puts on her. Because for Misaki it's NOT just all fun and games. She is constantly struggling, a hamster in Usui's lab. A beloved hamster, for sure. But he's no keeper of her conscience and sanity.

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We shouldn't even be talking about Misaki's perspective in the first place though--my statement was: from the audience's perspective, Usui should never appear jerkish. If even Misaki implicitly assumes Usui's harmlessness/good intentions, then for we the audience, that should apply even moreso. You yourself admit that, in basically any instance where Usui appears to be acting like a jerk to her, he is in fact usually acting for her benefit. As observers given third person insight into Usui's character, if the story is being communicated correctly, this pattern should become more than obvious.
I never admitted anything like this. If he'd act in Misaki's REAL interest, he'd pursue her differently. He'd back up his words honestly and pursue her genuinely (however, he DOES NOT WANT THAT). He'd tone down his teasing some and give her some breathing space. He'd explain what's making him tick. But all that wouldn't make for a nice enjoyable story.

So, in a nutshell: I'm guilty of being a jerk, too. I enjoy the Usui-Misaki tiffs, though I have to admit that I feel strong pity for Misaki, in particular in the latest chapters. But your worship of Usui is so extreme that we'll have to agree to disagree: It's not J.C.Staff's "fault" that Usui is a jerk for many people (including me). The original story does that just the same.
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Old 2010-05-16, 19:35   Link #79
LordDemon
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Join Date: Dec 2003
In the interest of my time and for the sake of not turning this topic into a war of words between three passionate fans of Maid-sama, I'll refrain from explicating the bulk of my view points or clarifying my stance on this current discussion, but I will say this much:

For the most part, as I've read through these messages, I've been inclined to agree with you, Mentar, and write off a lot of Sol's complaints as being nit-picky (which is saying something, considering how nit-picky I am with Maid-sama myself), but as far as this particular line of discussion is concerned, I don't think you could be further from correct and I think Sol actually managed to hit the bull's eye for this episode.

A lot of Usui's characterization was completely bungled, and I feel his aggressiveness was portrayed far more negatively than it was in the manga counterpart, particularly the scene the anime saw fit to cut out and lightly insert into the locker room scene instead.

The normal ending to their tiffs is Misaki being rendered to tears or frustrated? Excuse me? As someone who's likely read every major chapter at least 15 times, I am absolutely perplexed as to where you pulled that crazy bit of misinformation from. The only correct description of Misaki's reactions during their NORMAL spats is embarrassment, since issues of love are things she's still new to and has trouble expressing in a honest way.

But tears and frustration?

For the sake of my aforementioned time and not delving into spoilers, I'm not going to dig any deeper. But Sol is absolutely correct. There are only a few moments where Misaki is genuinely upset with him, and let's not employ the juvenile tactic of obfuscating what the term includes and excludes, as it's pretty self-explanatory. In most cases, Misaki's "angry reactions" are simply embarrassed reactions.

Even in one of the few times she's genuinely upset, at least in the case with this episode, if you refer to the manga chapter from which the scene is borrowed, she appears to immediately regret her harshness after the scene concludes....but alas, I cannot expand my argument on this front until the series itself expands.

And you're crazy if you think the anime doesn't make Usui look like a "whimsical-spontaneous stalker" moreso than the manga.

It's not even close.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:03   Link #80
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDemon View Post
The normal ending to their tiffs is Misaki being rendered to tears or frustrated? Excuse me?
Hello? What do you call Misaki's outbursts, then, if not frustration? Are you honestly thinking that this is a "normal" reaction? Do you honestly think that she LIKES what Usui does? Our "perfect lover" (quote Sol Falling) who we never "really ever be feeling like [...] being a jerk" (also quote)?

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As someone who's likely read every major chapter at least 15 times, I am absolutely perplexed as to where you pulled that crazy bit of misinformation from. The only correct description of Misaki's reactions during their NORMAL spats is embarrassment, since issues of love are things she's still new to and has trouble expressing in a honest way.
"Embarrassment" over "issues of love"? Is that your description of what Usui is doing in the first 20 chapters? In your world, Misaki's embarrassment is rooted in "love" in the first 20 chapters? O_o

Repeatedly invading someone's private space is extremely rude. Doing so while pinning someone against a wall or a tree is even worse. But no, Usui has to even do all of it with a naked chest. The right term for that is _sexual harassment_ where I come from.

Remember the scene where the falling ladder hurts Misaki's arm? Usui could have easily approached her normally and asked her to let him look at her arm. What does he do instead? Pin her against the wall, lean in and tell her to strip. What do you call that?

Let's call Usui what he is: He's a stalker, repeatedly sexually harassing Misaki, and he loves to tease and embarrass her. And he actively _enjoys_ messing with her and causing her sometimes to even punch and kick him. From Misaki's point of view he even added "indiscriminate sexual predator" to his crime list.

In one word: He's acting like a huge jerk. It's what he DOES which is causing some people to be less than enthusiastic about him. Misaki, who is on the receiving end of his harassment _does not like it_. This is not "embarrassment" over "issues of love", as if this was something she would fundamentally enjoy. It is annoyance over Usui's repeated misdemeanor.

It will take a LONG time before Misaki will develop an increased tolerance for Usui's attacks and before she'll get used to Usui's constant help and support for her, leading her to grow reliant on it (beginning around c20). Also, Usui will tone down some and show more consideration for her. But until the current manga chapters he will never lose his possessive and monopolizing streak.

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But tears and frustration?

For the sake of my aforementioned time and not delving into spoilers, I'm not going to dig any deeper. But Sol is absolutely correct. There are only a few moments where Misaki is genuinely upset with him, and let's not employ the juvenile tactic of obfuscating what the term includes and excludes, as it's pretty self-explanatory. In most cases, Misaki's "angry reactions" are simply embarrassed reactions.
Does she LIKE what Usui does or not? If you answer "yes" to that, there's something seriously wrong with you. If you answer "no", you're confirming my point.

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And you're crazy if you think the anime doesn't make Usui look like a "whimsical-spontaneous stalker" moreso than the manga.
Because that's what he is. Usui IS a whimsical-spontaneous stalker. There is no real difference between manga and anime in what he does. Only that in ep7, Misaki's reaction (her low-key hurt reply) held bigger impact. But based on what he has done, lord knows that Misaki had every right to say what she did.

Now don't get me wrong: There are redeeming qualities to Usui, too. And without his behaviour, the story wouldn't work the way it does. But I refuse to ignore his uglier traits by simply pretending that he's a flawless guy that everyone would have to love. He isn't, FAR from it in fact. And if you seriously don't know why, reread c47.

Last edited by Mentar; 2010-05-17 at 16:25.
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