The Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya (Impressions/Reviews)

[Ithekro]

You realize this would have been 8 episodes long had it be part of the season? But the break points are not in neat little 20 minute segments...though that didn't stop Sigh from breaking almost mid-sentance. But for the efffect to work correctly...I suppose a movie was the best way to show this story.


(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)

[Heatth]

Spoiler tags added, sorry about that.

It might be simpler just move all posts since Kaioshin-san review to the other thread, however.

Btw, the camrip is way better then I thought it would be. Not near to be 'good', of course, it certanly worth waiting for a better quality, but it have surprised me.

PP:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

You realize this would have been 8 episodes long had it be part of the season? But the break points are not in neat little 20 minute segments...though that didn't stop Sigh from breaking almost mid-sentance. But for the efffect to work correctly...I suppose a movie was the best way to show this story.

Eh, are you talking to me or keri? IT don't seen to fit either way.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)

That is why the other thread exist. In any case, pretty much anything that happened on the movie is 'spoiler', as well as any content from latter novels.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

What the Data Entity seem to be after is the ability to make something from nothing. They can manipulate data extremely well...but they can't make something from nothing. Haruhi appears to be able to do this somehow. What Nagato did was not that. She altered what was there in a Haruhi like way using Haruhi's power....but she didn't create it from nothing like Haruhi does is making new universes.

Or at least that seems to be the explaination. One problem (or prehaps it is a feature) of this series is that we don't have all the facts...and we can't tell if the information we are getting, not only from the three factions, but even from the narrator, is in fact true. Kyon is not a reliable narrator. That seems to be one of the quirks that make things interesting. We don't know if Mikuru's faction is telling Kyon the truth. We don't know if Itsuki's theories are correct or he he's lying all the time. We don't even know if Yuki is telling the truth. I'm more inclined to believe Yuki because she even stated that what she says, Kyon might not believe to be true, and that their was no way for her to prove anything. Her style suggests she's being honest more often than not. This could prove false at some later date...but for now...all the informations we have is what we have...via Kyon. The Kyon who might be leaving things out of his story...including his own name.

Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless. Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.

And this kind of builds into my argument that it's hard to build an attachment to any aspect of the franchise when it still doesn't seem to have defined anything about itself and it's characters by this point. When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you. Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Too much bitter feelings eh? Anyway, I can surely understand Ithekro, you comments outside the spoilers were quite reasonable and well thought, even if I don't agree with some. The rest, however, it is filled with pointless sarcasm and mockery. You took the two scenes most said it was (at last) "great" and called it 'rip-off' and narmy without really explaining why. You should understand why people get annoyed.

Also, they way you wrote it in a fan-filled community was like asking for a fight. Even if you was correct, you should review how do you says something and where.

Which scenes where those? Perhaps I can elaborate if you tell me what specifically you were referring too.

Also you should know I'm not one of those types who are terribly worried about whether people will like what I say about their favourite shows or not. I'm not really bothered if people think my commentary is too harsh or sarcastic or that it looks like I'm picking a fight. They are free to disagree and to respond however they feel like. I know a lot of people are die hard about this franchise in particular, but I still don't feel like that should stop me from being honest about how I feel about it's entries. If you're expecting me to go along with what others are saying and just throw away my full candid reaction by proclaiming that it's a perfect flawless movie to avoid stepping on the fandom's toes then you're asking the impossible I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Spoiler tags added, sorry about that.

It might be simpler just move all posts since Kaioshin-san review to the other thread, however.

It's not a review by the way, just reaction and commentary.

[keri]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

(The hard part of spoilers is figuring out just what is a spoiler and what isn't, and how to have a conversation about something without it being spoilers but still getting a point across...it is touchy, and I'm not sure where to spoiler in this case and where not too do so)

Basically, if it's details about the plot of Disappearance or other stories not shown in the tv airings, it's a spoiler when it comes to this thread.

The number of potentially spoilerish posts increased quite a bit when the camrip came out, and the last forty or so posts have been getting pretty close to the line or crossing it completely. I figure it's just excitement about the movie, but it helps to be reminded that some of us are still patiently waiting for a DVD/BluRay version before we see the thing and we want to be able to choose whether or not we read spoilers.

[Ithekro]

The comment on the length of the movie translated to episodes was purely something I just thought of randomly.

As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.

Technology that is advanced enough can seem like magic. (perhaps even to Mikuru's people)

The question still remains...does Haruhi classify as a god like Itsuki claims? Yuki and Mikuru's groups don't have that opinion of Haruhi, yet she does things neither group can define..so they observe for their own purposes. For Mikuru's group it seems to be to keep the time line stable. For Yuki's group it is to gain whatever this power is for some purpose we don't fully understand (via Kyon). Thus the question remains...what is Haruhi?

No matter who the story is focused on...Haruhi is still the reason for everything, and thus still the center of attention by the end. Be it some event that they need to keep from Haruhi so she doesn't find out about her powers, or be it something else that happens as a result of her powers...it is still all about Haruhi (or Kyon actually and his trails and tribulations as a result of this one girl.....Haruhi Suzumiya).

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Spoiler for Movie Spoiler:

Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless.

Your interpretation alone. A bit weird, but not too much. Do not know about any 'hullabaloo'.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.

Mikuru's eyes in Sighs are the only thing I can think of. There is also the subtle transformation of the air gun in a water one, the transformation itself is just manipulation (Nagato can probably do it by herself), but then, where did the water come from? I am also not sure if Nagato-tachi can give intelligence to cats, even if they could make one to talk. To sum up, the whole Sighs is Haruhi creating stuff from nothing.

Anyway, Haruhi really mostly only do subtle alteration that are, indeed, not different from what Yuki usually does.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

And this kind of builds into my argument that it's hard to build an attachment to any aspect of the franchise when it still doesn't seem to have defined anything about itself and it's characters by this point. When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you. Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.

Your opinion. I agree with you a bit, tough. It seem clear for me Tanigawa made the first book as it was the only one of the series (and Boredom as an 'extra story'). He left some 'sequel hooks' but mostly tried to tie everything by then, so most of the 'rules' there are simplified in comparation with the rest of the series. I still think he had done a good job at getting consistent. It is true that Haruhi seems less powerful now, but it is too absurd and do not contradict the first novel.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Which scenes where those? Perhaps I can elaborate if you tell me what specifically you were referring too.

Sroyy, I meant

Spoiler for Movie Spoiler:

The "Kyon talking to himself" scene and the stabbing scene.

Btw, I don't watched that train scenes from Evangelion so I can't say it is a rip-off or not. I was just saying it is weird hearing it from you when everyone else has only praises to it.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Also you should know I'm not one of those types who are terribly worried about whether people will like what I say about their favourite shows or not. I'm not really bothered if people think my commentary is too harsh or sarcastic or that it looks like I'm picking a fight. They are free to disagree and to respond however they feel like. I know a lot of people are die hard about this franchise in particular, but I still don't feel like that should stop me from being honest about how I feel about it's entries. If you're expecting me to go along with what others are saying and just throw away my full candid reaction by proclaiming that it's a perfect flawless movie to avoid stepping on the fandom's toes then you're asking the impossible I'm afraid.

Well, you should try to not piss off people if you don't need to. It don't help you, or anyone, a bit, so why do that? Not saying you should lie or keep from being harsh if you think you should, but being sarcastic and mock is just bad. Your argument seems less serious and you piss people off. It is hard getting someone to agree with you, or even to pay attention on you. if you does that.

It is the same as not insulting someone even if the insult is fitting. Unless you believe the person with understand you are really trying to point something to him, they will just be offended and start a fight. I believe you are not a random internet troll who just want to piss people off, but not everyone will think that way, and no one took a troll seriously.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

It's not a review by the way, just reaction and commentary.

Semantics.

[Game8910]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Mikuru's eyes in Sighs are the only thing I can think of. There is also the subtle transformation of the air gun in a water one, the transformation itself is just manipulation (Nagato can probably do it by herself), but then, where did the water come from? I am also not sure if Nagato-tachi can give intelligence to cats, even if they could make one to talk. To sum up, the whole Sighs is Haruhi creating stuff from nothing.

Anyway, Haruhi really mostly only do subtle alteration that are, indeed, not different from what Yuki usually does.

did you already forget the alternate universe at the end of Melancholy? That wasnt just turning this world into that, it was a completely new and separate dimension Haruhi created from nothing

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.

I was always under the impression that it was for the purposes of communicating with lower beings if necessary. Why else would Nagato assume the form of Japanese girl and Asakura the same.

Technology that is advanced enough can seem like magic. (perhaps even to Mikuru's people)

Altering the fabric of reality in a drastic way like Nagato did could be classified as magic, or it could be classified as godlike.

The question still remains...does Haruhi classify as a god like Itsuki claims? Yuki and Mikuru's groups don't have that opinion of Haruhi, yet she does things neither group can define..so they observe for their own purposes. For Mikuru's group it seems to be to keep the time line stable. For Yuki's group it is to gain whatever this power is for some purpose we don't fully understand (via Kyon). Thus the question remains...what is Haruhi?

I would say her powers classifiable as godlike in a trickster way comparable to Q from Star Trek or the Ascended/Ori from Stargate. That's kind of how I picture the Data Entity to be honest.

No matter who the story is focused on...Haruhi is still the reason for everything, and thus still the center of attention by the end. Be it some event that they need to keep from Haruhi so she doesn't find out about her powers, or be it something else that happens as a result of her powers...it is still all about Haruhi (or Kyon actually and his trails and tribulations as a result of this one girl.....Haruhi Suzumiya).

Not this time. Nagato's "feelings" for Kyon seem to have been the reason for this particular data quake or whatever you want to call it. Haruhi was innocent this time and really had little to do with the story overall.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Your opinion. I agree with you a bit, tough. It seem clear for me Tanigawa made the first book as it was the only one of the series (and Boredom as an 'extra story'). He left some 'sequel hooks' but mostly tried to tie everything by then, so most of the 'rules' there are simplified in comparation with the rest of the series. I still think he had done a good job at getting consistent. It is true that Haruhi seems less powerful now, but it is too absurd and do not contradict the first novel.

You know I never thought about it in that way, but it does kind of make sense that that could be it. That happens a lot more often than most of us are probably aware.

Spoiler for response to the scenes:

I actually thought the scene with Kyon talking to himself was well done and interesting compared to most of them, but I still felt that it borrowed a bit from Evangelion for no reason that I can come to. It's just there because it's a popular imagery, which to me came across as a little pandering. As for the stabbing scene it just came across as unintentionally hammy and silly too me. The whole smiling and giggling Ryoko came across as perhaps unintentionally hilarious and without an undercurrent of malice or intimidation that was probably intended. Not to mention how sudden the violence was was and how it didn't do much to add anything to the current narrative beyond getting a little blood and action into the movie at the last minute. It just didn't work for me.

[4545]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Again back to one of my other problems with all of this, so much hullabaloo was made about trying to discover the secret about Haruhi's abilities in the first novel and then in this one they go and have her powers superseded by Nagato like it was effortless. Also here's another thing, have we actually seen Haruhi do anything that resembles creating something from nothing? Where's the difference in what Nagato did here? I don't think there is one at this point.

Remember "Ponytails turn me on"? You've obviously forgotten the first season.

When it seems like the franchise just keep changing the rules and emphasis based on which characters are popular (and I know Tanigawa has said that Nagato is his favourite character too) it also makes it hard to build any attachment to anything the franchise throws at you.

Nagato's impending breakdown was foreshadowed with the subtly of a car crash. They aired it eight times for God sakes...

Did you really expect Nagato to remain the in the background the entire time?

Has it ever occurred to you that Nagato's popularity was BECAUSE of the author's focus on her and not the other way around?

Ever seen Gundam Seed Destiny? Same basic problem I had with how they wrote for the characters in that show. I'm not really playing favourites since I don't really have one, but I can't help but deny that it feels like they've just switched the focus away from Haruhi as a source of intrigue in this series and shifted it towards Nagato to respond to her popularity. It just feels cheap to me somehow and like Haruhi is somehow less important an entity then she came across as in the first novel out of the blue.

This is silly. Your entire argument is just a paranoid hypothesis built upon a mistaken assumption.

There isn't any evidence that the author switched the focus of the story away from Haruhi because of Yuki's popularity. When you Consider the fact that disappearance was written in 2004, well before the novels were mainstream, I REALLY doubt that this was some elaborate plot to pander to a fanbase that didn't even exist yet.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I was always under the impression that it was for the purposes of communicating with lower beings if necessary. Why else would Nagato assume the form of Japanese girl and Asakura the same.

It could be both, you know. Also, Nagato aways said her role was to observe, not to communicate. Yuki is pretty uncommunicative, actually, so this is hardly her main function (that would be Asakura and Kimudori, I supposed).

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Altering the fabric of reality in a drastic way like Nagato did could be classified as magic, or it could be classified as godlike.

For us. For them, it is just 'technology' or 'science'. Haruhi, however, is close to magic to them, me thinks.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Spoiler for Movie Spoiler:

Not this time. Nagato's "feelings" for Kyon seem to have been the reason for this particular data quake or whatever you want to call it. Haruhi was innocent this time and really had little to do with the story overall.

Spoiler for Movie Spoiler:

I wouldn't say it was the feelings for Kyon alone but feelings in general. But, yeah, you are correct.

Btw, this is a huge spoiler, it is the main twist of the movie. Be sure to edit your post hidding it.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You know I never thought about it in that way, but it does kind of make sense that that could be it. That happens a lot more often than most of us are probably aware.

I think he had said something like that in an interview, but I could be wrong. Still, the first novel make much more sense if you think it that way. I remember this happening in other works as well, Runaways from Marvel Comics is the first exemple can remember from the top of my head. Sasameki Koto, a yuri manga, is another.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Spoiler for response to the scenes:

I actually thought the scene with Kyon talking to himself was well done and interesting compared to most of them, but I still felt that it borrowed a bit from Evangelion for no reason that I can come to. It's just there because it's a popular imagery, which to me came across as a little pandering.

Spoiler for Movie spoiler:

I see. I found strange you calling it 'rip-off' because that word usually have very negative connotations. I might have borrowed from Evangelion, and it wouldn't be the first thing they took from it (kinda fitting, considering it is a Yuki Movie ). Since it is awesome, despite being based in a famous scene (danm, I really need to finish Evangelion) there is no problem, IMO.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Spoiler for response to the scenes:

As for the stabbing scene it just came across as unintentionally hammy and silly too me. The whole smiling and giggling Ryoko came across as perhaps unintentionally hilarious and without an undercurrent of malice or intimidation that was probably intended. Not to mention how sudden the violence was was and how it didn't do much to add anything to the current narrative beyond getting a little blood and action into the movie at the last minute. It just didn't work for me.

Spoiler for Movie Spoiler:

For me, and other, the scene was good because it is 'silly'(although it is not the word I would use). I do not think it should be malicious or intimidating, but really weird in a Uncanny Valley way. Ryouko cheerfulness fit her character, she do not does what she does out of malice, she just don't understand quite well what it mean for other.

Also, the scene is actually pretty important, Yuki do not talk by herself so we need others talking for her. The whole purpose of that scene was showing Yuki, despite leaving a door open for Kyon, did not want he to interrupt her. Ryouko purpose was showing the duality in Yuki's mind.

That and bringing a popular character back, that is it.

Anyway, it is mostly matter of taste, I guess. It is a pitty you saw it as 'hilarious', but, since you are likely the exception, I wouldn't blame KyoAni for that

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 4545

Remember "Ponytails turn me on"? You've obviously forgotten the first season.

If I had any idea what you were talking about I'd have more to say than this. I guess that means you sure got me on this one didn't you.

Nagato's impending breakdown was foreshadowed with the subtly of a car crash. They aired it eight times for God sakes...

I don't buy that for one second actually. People keep using that as a means to link Endless Eight to what happened in this movie, but that's something that can only be done purely at the will of the viewer since Nagato showed zero emotion throughout that whole affair. I choose not to attach feelings to a character based on something that might not actually be there or related to a specific event. That's the sort of thing fan-fiction is for, not for canon which is what I'm concerned about.

Did you really expect Nagato to remain the in the background the entire time?

No but I didn't really expect her to steal the show out from under the title character the way she did in Disappearance. Like I said if Nagato can just do whatever to Haruhi then it makes the intrigue of the character just that much lesser. The real question I'm asking is why undermine your title character's intrigue like that after going to all the trouble to pose the god or not question like Koizumi did in the first novel? After all the entire basis of Haruhiism and a large chunk of the franchises popularity seems to be built along with the faction that believes she's god incarnate in the franchises universe and what Nagato did pretty much dispels that idea completely. I would think this would be more a source of concern and debate for a fandom as devoted as the Haruhi franchises, but I guess their concerns are different from mine. So far I seem to be the only person that has ever brought it up for discussion.

Has it ever occurred to you that Nagato's popularity was BECAUSE of the author's focus on her and not the other way around?

I thought it was because the whole quiet bookish girl thing was a popular moe fetish to be honest.

This is silly. Your entire argument is just a paranoid hypothesis built upon a mistaken assumption.

Is that like how the entire argument that Nagato acted the way she did in the movie because of Endless Eight was an assumption or are we talking in different terms here. Anyway I completely botched what I meant to say in that quote so it doesn't really matter I suppose.

The bit about responding to the characters popularity was an aside because I know that kind of thing happens all the time over there, the cheated feeling is definitely there because the intrigue about Haruhi's powers and why the Data Entity would want to study her are kind of gone now that it's been shown that she's hardly all that powerful at all compared to Nagato or the Data Entity. If that's the course they want to pursue now then so be it. I'm just saying that it strikes me as inconsistent with the way they were building her abilities in the first novel. The whole desperately trying to understand her bit that the Data Entity has going on takes a blow when you can just toss her into an alternate reality and completely rewrite her memories from beyond a certain point in time. Again I guess my concerns just aren't the same as the core fanbases here.

There isn't any evidence that the author switched the focus of the story away from Haruhi because of Yuki's popularity. When you Consider the fact that disappearance was written in 2004, well before the novels were mainstream, I REALLY doubt that this was some elaborate plot to pander to a fanbase that didn't even exist yet.

What?

Originally Posted by Game8910

did you already forget the alternate universe at the end of Melancholy? That wasnt just turning this world into that, it was a completely new and separate dimension Haruhi created from nothing

Spoiler for movie spoilers:

This just made me think of another set of questions. If Nagato can't create data from scratch then how is Ryoko there in the movie if she's supposed to have been removed from existence already? How is she there and alive again and who created her if not the data entity since in the current timeline that's how she was supposed to have been made? If the data entity exists then why isn't it doing something to fix what Nagato broke on it's own? If it doesn't exist how does Ryoko exist unless Nagato somehow created her to exist in the alternate timeline? If she can make Ryoko exist again then how is that any different from what Haruhi does by supposedly creating "data" which the Data Entity and it's subordinates supposedly can't do? Furthermore if the Data Entity created Nagato and Ryoko as sentient beings then how is that any different from what Haruhi does? There are more questions I could raise here but I'll just leave it at that for now since I'm going to bed.

[Khu]

Spoiler:

Regarding Ryoko, she isn't 'removed', per se. It's more the DITE stripped her down and put her somewhere else, or really that all humanoid interfaces are part of the DITE itself.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.

And how can the data entity not know what Nagato did if she is supposed to be an extension of it? There's just something incredibly hard to swallow about all of this is what I'm saying. I find it highly doubtful that an entity that is supposed to basically be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent to the point where it can manipulate the fabric of multidimensional space is somehow unaware of it's own abilities. I think once you reach that point of advancement where you basically transcend time and space you should have a pretty good handle on your own capabilities.

Plus if the Data Entity really somehow can't understand what Nagato did as an extension of itself (and I still don't buy that it can't) then it should really give up any hope of ever understanding Haruhi.

Let me go grab a reference book from my shelf because I want to compare this to contradiction in The Bible. Be back in a jiffy.

Edit: Okay it reminds me of The Bible where they could never quite decide on whether god was Omniscient or not.

Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the lord. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the lord. (Jeremiah 23:24)

That's the kind of data entity the first book seemed to portray and the answer was no. Now though you're telling me it's more like Genesis 4:9 where

Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"

Which is it? Omniscience or blindness?

Perhaps a better comparison would be to Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen though. Dr. Manhattan abilities while seemingly making him omniscient and omnipotent to the point where he could manipulate the fabric of reality were defined as having some limits. I don't recall anything of the sort being introduced with the data entity.

We all just need to bow down to Kaioshin... apparently he is able to completely understand such an obscure existence such as the data entity... we are not worthy to be communicating with such a being... he/she is able to understand the will of god... we truly are not worthy... *bows to Kaioshin-sama*

Haters will hate.

[baltakatei]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Spoiler for movie spoilers:

This just made me think of another set of questions. If Nagato can't create data from scratch then how is Ryoko there in the movie if she's supposed to have been removed from existence already? How is she there and alive again and who created her if not the data entity since in the current timeline that's how she was supposed to have been made? If the data entity exists then why isn't it doing something to fix what Nagato broke on it's own? If it doesn't exist how does Ryoko exist unless Nagato somehow created her to exist in the alternate timeline? If she can make Ryoko exist again then how is that any different from what Haruhi does by supposedly creating "data" which the Data Entity and it's subordinates supposedly can't do? Furthermore if the Data Entity created Nagato and Ryoko as sentient beings then how is that any different from what Haruhi does? There are more questions I could raise here but I'll just leave it at that for now since I'm going to bed.

Those questions have also been sitting in the back of my mind, waiting to be resolved.
I believe any attempt at a full explanation of the exact Haruhi - ISDE relationship to be impossible given the current revealed information.

Like you say, the act of "data creation" that Haruhi is capable of sounds too much like technobabble.

Basically, Tanigawa has thrown several variables at us and hasn't given us enough correlations to solve the system. It's a real mess. He doesn't seem too concerned with explaining the rules of the Haruhi-verse as he keeps introducing new characters in order to keep the audiences entertained.

I don't think Tanigawa meant for the novels to provide us with any deep insights into the nature of our universe beyond the character development that we can grasp of the SOS Brigade members. If he dabbles into speculative metaphysics it will be for simply the "wow" factor we feel when hearing some smartypants talk about something new.

Spoiler for spoilerish:

As for the movie, knowing the nature of the different factions surrounding Haruhi isn't necessary to enjoy it. The movie's focus is Kyon, the normal human we can relate to. The people and environment around him have been changed by an unknown power. However, unlike in mindscrew stories such as Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis, the main character's efforts to unravel the cause of the change is ultimately rewarded and his world mostly restored to its original track. Sure, Kyon conveniently found some well-planted phlebotinum that could allow him to work towards a solution. If that weren't the case, Mr. Kaioshin, you'd probably have stopped watching the movie out of boredom. But what I appreciate is that Kyon acted rationally and purposefully once he had a hint of how to proceed. "Okay, this note was written by the original Nagato. Nice. That means she still hasn't given up on me. That means a possibility for a resolution to my problem is possible. Now what can I do that is within my power?" It shows that a person can remain hopeful despite a huge obstacle being placed in front of them.

The problem with having Kyon be the guy who resolves the problem and progressing the story is that he's too darn close to the great goddess Nagato. Omnipotent characters are too boring to read about. When any problem comes up, he just has to ask his magic bookworm genie (who even in her original state obeys him at all times) for the solution and *zap* she hands him the solution. Disappearance is constructed so that whether or not Kyon is saved is dependent entirely upon his own initiative and effort. I can relate to that. You probably can too. It's how the world works for most of us. Want to get a job? Well, you'll have to learn a skill. That means study. Oh, and you'll have to navigate how to interview, how to network, etc. Wiping out the mystic qualities surrounding aliens and time travel makes Disappearance much more understandable and valuable.

But isn't that what makes the Haruhi universe so interesting? Aliens, time travelers, superhumans... Well, it made the first season interesting. But such gimicks really only work once.

/rant

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"

LOL. You can't be seriously taking this as the Bible questioning whether God is omniscient... My parents are far from omniscient, but when I was a kid, I got this treatment all the time when they caught me doing something I shouldn't. It's like my mom saying "Where are all the cookies?" as she watches me wipe cookie crumbs off of my face...

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I would think this would be more a source of concern and debate for a fandom as devoted as the Haruhi franchises, but I guess their concerns are different from mine. So far I seem to be the only person that has ever brought it up for discussion.

There are literally pages and pages of discussion on this topic here on Animesuki and also on the Baka-Tsuki forums, just to name two places. Here it should be primarily in the novel thread, and it's in a number of places on the other site. It's far from an untouched topic. In fact it's been discussed enough by now that many no longer feel the need to discuss it. Especially not in a spoiler-free thread...Hint, hint...

As for my own opinion:

Spoiler for suitably vague, but spoilered just the same...:

The Data Overmind's power works in an X fashion. Haruhi's works in a Z fashion. People are somewhere down much closer to the A's, so it all looks like the same magic from our view. What was done in Disappearance was done in a Y fashion, or maybe only a hard X, which looks a whole hell of a lot like Z from our perspective, but really isn't, and certainly doesn't even seem to be so from the perspective of X or Z.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Hmmmm....well anyway I figured out what was up with the backgrounds in the movie and how they were able to get them looking so good. It was as I expected...2D and 3D composite shots. The backgrounds seem to have been drawn almost entirely by different studios called Studio Blue, Anime Workshop Basara and Headworks, while Kyoani primarily did the work on the key character animation which was then superimposed over the backgrounds to create the effect that they were part of the same scene. This basically allowed one group to focus on one and only task of the animation at a time. In fact Studio Blue (a Korean group) in particular did a ton of Key Animation and in-between stuff as well so I think they deserve a large share of the credit as to why this movie looked so good.

That's why they looked so damn different, out of place and well....superimposed.....yet good....kind of a common movie technique actually, but not used nearly as much in TV series and OVA's nor I think in Japanese animation in general up until more recently, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there. Anyway Karas used a similar technique if I'm not mistaken though and it's very easy to pick up on.

[TheHaruhiIncarnate]

phew. so much reading. I don't know why it's so confusing for you guys to understand. it's pretty easy for me.....(probably cause I think the same way Haruhi/The Series does.) -_-"

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

That's why they looked so damn different, out of place and well....superimposed.....yet good....kind of a common movie technique actually, but not used nearly as much in TV series and OVA's nor I think in Japanese animation in general up until more recently, but someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

Uh, having the animation be superimposed on top of background art (often drawn by a separate sub-contractor) is pretty much how anime has always been done. And the fact that a lot of key animation was also farmed out is also extremely common, as is the bit about 2D/3D compositing (though this is more common in the most modern works; some shows still use water-coloured backgrounds, but it's getting harder and harder to find enough skilled artists). The difference between what you see in this movie and the average TV show is simply time, budget, and production preferences/decisions. Obviously, they wanted the movie to impress.


Anyway, in other news, we'll probably create an impressions/review thread for the movie soon, and a lot of posts will be moved there. Camrips are not a very common thing for anime, so it wasn't clear how this should be handled. But at this point I guess a lot of people spoiled themselves, so this isn't really the right thread for these discussions. Anyway, more soon...

[Ithekro]

After what happened last year, can you really blame people for wanting to see this movie...since it was pretty much all that was talked about for years, and hoped for during those days in July.

[NiwaDaisuke]

Best movie ever!
Way better than the novel, IMO.