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Old 2010-04-13, 10:06   Link #1081
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Wrath88 View Post
Rather than caring about who's in the right/wrong, I care more about the rules that make up this place.
Not to mention that no matter how you die, you come back - in the same place no less. I thought the guy who got killed Resident Evil movie style would come back in the infirmary.
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:17   Link #1082
-Sho-
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Just watch ep 2 .

Nice op with Tenshi .
For the show , I don't see anything great . Well , this is unrealistic but there is no sense .
The hilarious dead part was a bit forced .
And seems that people there are stronger than normal people .
TK who stopped for a moment the ceiling which are falling ...
Yuri who avoid Tenshi's all attacks even though she used her "skills" ...
At least , the animation looks ok . Added in my least enthusiasm show in this season .
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:22   Link #1083
Wrath88
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Not to mention that no matter how you die, you come back - in the same place no less. I thought the guy who got killed Resident Evil movie style would come back in the infirmary.
Which is why they don't make liquid cement trap...
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:23   Link #1084
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Originally Posted by Wrath88 View Post
Which is why they don't make liquid cement trap...
Wait, didn't one of them drown? So even if he did wake up he'd just die again...
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:25   Link #1085
descent87
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I love Tenshi as much as the next guy and agree she isn't a "villan" per se but I can't agree with a theory that says she and "God" are "right" in this situation.

As has been pointed out both from the show and the novel translations (no spoiler) this world once you become self aware of it is pretty terrible. Your stuck at some isolated boarding school, expected to obey arbitrary rules, have almost no self-determination in being a model student. If your gonna say healing of your soul takes place here, it can only take place by fighting yet another unbending establishment, not by giving in. Once you notice something is wrong with this place its rather likely you will "rebel" in some respect and after that moment giving in to the system wouldn't be enlightened it would just be submissive. I doubt they are willing to make a statement like the "creator is evil" or "the human spirit should be crushed". Tenshi might very well be benevolent (assuming afterlife setting which I don't yet believe the regen and binary is too much atm) but the way out of this is not through giving in or understanding her point of view, she might be helping them shape their own outlook instead.
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:36   Link #1086
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Originally Posted by Khu View Post
It is when it's overtaking another really good theme from my favourite anime... :/
Well think of this way if you're comparing to the full version of that song, then you've spend more time listening to it .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Wait, didn't one of them drown? So even if he did wake up he'd just die again...
Yes, but water drained after certain amount of time, just like the falling ceiling went up, and the lasers turned off.
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:49   Link #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath88 View Post
Rather than caring about who's in the right/wrong, I care more about the rules that make up this place.

1. We saw bullet holes to the building get regenerated, but excavating huge pieces of rock to form a cavern doesn't initiate regen. So building regen is limited to the school building itself. Nice to know that the window Noda gets knocked out off is automatically fixed, but what about resetting all those Anti-Tenshi traps underground?
Did u think that maybe only gods creations get regened automaticly , and things created by the humans in there are not regened , and/or maybe big things regenerate over night like they would need longer time to regen ?

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Wait, didn't one of them drown? So even if he did wake up he'd just die again...
Maybe they got "immunity" after they come back to life (like respawn)
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Old 2010-04-13, 10:56   Link #1088
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Originally Posted by Wrath88 View Post
Rather than caring about who's in the right/wrong, I care more about the rules that make up this place.

1. We saw bullet holes to the building get regenerated, but excavating huge pieces of rock to form a cavern doesn't initiate regen. So building regen is limited to the school building itself. Nice to know that the window Noda gets knocked out off is automatically fixed, but what about resetting all those Anti-Tenshi traps underground?
2. Tenshi only initiates her Skills after receiving an attack.
3. NPCs are so dumb that they can't hold onto their food tickets and cheer for a band at the same time.
4. You don't get erased when you are stabbed by Tenshi.
5. Tenshi's distortion skill can't block all objects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
Yuri who avoid Tenshi's all attacks even though she used her "skills" ...
Her headband gives her evade +10 bonus.
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Old 2010-04-13, 11:11   Link #1089
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Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
Her headband gives her evade +10 bonus.
We are going into a MMoRPG would be fun to have such a game but.. offtopic.
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Old 2010-04-13, 11:45   Link #1090
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The Key influence (or maybe I should say Maeda Jun) isn't too apparent in the first episode, but of course knowing Key, I fully expect to bawl my eyes out at some point in this series, as well as the heavy hinting and dosing of magical elements to go along with everything.

That said, episode 1 felt a bit weak to me for an opener. It might be because of my Key bias that I can't help but make comparisons to Maeda Jun's other works. A bit too much comedy and slapstick for my liking, which admittedly nearly overrides the very intriguing Highlander-esque setting and the presumable mystery behind the "battlefield" and whatever it truly is they're fighting against regarding Tenshi and "god".

On the other hand of course those other previous works started out as pretty silly and progressively became very, very, very serious. The silly little things are in fact often the deathly serious ones later on. Deadly serious. Bawwwingly serious. Pretty quickly too, so I really won't hold the first episode against it. Episode 1 did end with a classic semi-magical introspective reflection of sorts I was expecting at some point so it was all balanced, sort of, at the end.

Oh and I'm assuming Key did the OP? Sounds like something they'd make, and the singer sounds like Lia.

Episode 2 was when I realized I should stop comparing it to other Key works because it is both very much Key (the latter half) and very much not Key (the first half?). I actually very much enjoyed it that for all it's silliness at points, it's actually fairly serious if having a rather odd way of presenting it.

On to serious business, there are 3 things that very much intrigue me:

1. Conformity and Heaven

This series seems to connect a lot to the ideas of religions regarding heaven, purgatory, etc. If anything the battlefield feels closer to an idea of purgatory rather than heaven since it's directly suggested to be the transition stage towards heaven. Theologically speaking the cleansing aspect of the school, where arrivals become students of sorts before they presumably graduate to heaven, is very much symbolic of this but I'm not too sure of the conformity aspect. I've studied theology but I'm not a theologian, however I don't think I've really come across the idea of purgatory being a place where everyone must conform to the norms or risk damnation, at least for Christianity.

For the series, I assume there has to be some very important and solid reason as to why conformity is demanded, and while Yuri seems to consider the rest of the unaware student body to be akin to NPCs, it's really fairly possible for me that like Otonoshi these are simply the people sent there who have not yet become self-aware. Yuri seems to suggest that these people, or most of them at least, have been there for ages and thus concludes to believe that they simply aren't real people, dead or alive (or in between). I personally think that they are the same as them, that there's really no difference in the masses compared to the SSS. To me I'd think that the SSS were the same as these so-called NPCs before self-awareness. It's not outrageous to think that perhaps they only think so because they don't bother to remember the faces of the NPCs and therefore get surprised when a new face that is self-aware arrives. In Otonoshi's case he might have simply been one of the masses and suddenly becomes self-aware right on that spot to be seen by Yuri eventually.

2. Self-awareness and Memories

One thing I find sort of odd is the lack of self-awareness and memories. Simply put, if this place is meant for one to rid oneself of their physical attachments in preparation for heaven, how can one consciously attempt to make this choice if one cannot remember and cannot think for themselves? If a person on the battlefield possesses no capacity for conscious thought and no memories of his past experiences then how is he supposed to rid himself of these things? Is it to say that the "mindless masses" are those who have achieved this state, or did they become like this by default upon they're arrival?

I'm probably thinking about this too much but this strikes me as odd. If indeed Tenshi's function is to restore this state of zombie-like existence, then I believe that everyone on the school has the capacity to become self-aware at some point by some trigger, that if indeed the NPCs are pre-awares then the zombie-like state is simply a facade to mask/suppress self-awareness, and thus there would have been an original trigger that would have awakened Yuri. In this respect Yuri starts the chain that causes more people to become self-aware.

Yuri in this respect is the original self-aware, as she herself sort of puts it (and thus de facto leader), and she herself is the trigger for everyone else. As such, more supported by the fact that she seems to be the only one with perfect memory of her life upon becoming self-aware, that she is a special existence in this battlefield.

Yuri = Jesus?

Another thing of note is that, given that their weapons explode in their faces if they've never seen it before, it might be safe to say that the internal reality of the battlefield is defined in turn by the (suppressed?) memories of the people there. Assuming the rule applies to everything then would it be safe to say that, since the world seems concrete to some extent, that everyone there has some form of collective memory and/or consciousness that allows the existence of the world in the way they see it? At this point we haven't seen enough of their purgatory so I'll expound on that later.

3. The Concept of God

Most intriguing and probably most difficult to talk about is the concept of "god" in this world. I guess the only idea we have of the nature of this god is the idea that Yuri has of him. That is to say, she obviously thinks of him as malevolent, unjust and unkind. When you think about it, the very nature of the world's moral code and rules of conformity, zombie minds and violence upon those who rebel against it seems to justify her beliefs. She undoubtedly believes that this god is screwed up compared to the way we think a god would be.

The thing is of course is that she likely tackles the problem most people in a religion have, whether they like to admit it: the silence of god. She questions god as to why horrible things happened to her, and probably why such things seem to continue in this world in-between, but I guess the god of this world doesn't answer. Only silence, so she is forced to make her own image of him based on her experiences.

One could say that Tenshi is likely to be the (rampaging) hand of god in this world, but I have this suspicion that she's not, at least not wholly so. I don't know why I believe this but I don't think Tenshi exactly acts out the will of god so to speak, that there's probably something more to it, something I'm sure will be revealed eventually.

And that as they say is that. My fingers and my brain hurts. Damn you Maeda Jun and your metaphysics.
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Old 2010-04-13, 13:53   Link #1091
descent87
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Excellent post MeoTwister, lots of other good ones here too. There just really is so much to consider with this show and that is what continued to make it so exciting and immersive.

Comp sim or Afterlife or whatnot I should just bring this into discussion, not that it proves anything, after watching Tortise-subs Angel Beat PVs, just because it is so similar to what many here are saying (i don't really know what to think myself yet):

Spoiler for Tenshi attributed statements::
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Old 2010-04-13, 16:25   Link #1092
SwiftStrike
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Not sure if 13eps is enough to cover much depth, but I guess the other novels/manga have some part to play in filling that gap.

anyone notice there's two different types of previews here? one full of kanji "words" (what they say) and the other with pictures (site)

so far, its looking pretty good.
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Old 2010-04-13, 17:11   Link #1093
xia
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Second episode was alright, its not one of my favorites this season but its ok.
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Old 2010-04-13, 17:38   Link #1094
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Second episode was alright, its not one of my favorites this season but its ok.
i don't get how people can be so judgmental.. half the shows still haven't done an ep 2 yet.
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Old 2010-04-13, 18:23   Link #1095
fertygo
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i don't get how people can be so judgmental.. half the shows still haven't done an ep 2 yet.
Well its seems the "Dead is not matter" jokes will be there until the end affect my temporary judgement too lol...

Well at least the main story have the potential to be epic though. But i still have feelings this series will prove Maeda is human too, like Ryukishi do with Ookamikakushi.
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Old 2010-04-13, 18:26   Link #1096
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Well its seems the "Dead is not matter" jokes will be there until the end affect my temporary judgement too lol...

Well at least the main story have the potential to be epic though. But i still have feelings this series will prove Maeda is human too, like Ryukishi do with Ookamikakushi.
You read Ookami Kakushi? O.o

Either way, Ookami was a side story Ryukishi was making while making Umineko and helping out with Rewrite and whatever else he was dealing with in life... I thought Angel Beats was Maeda's sole project. O.o
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Old 2010-04-13, 18:49   Link #1097
fertygo
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You read Ookami Kakushi? O.o

Either way, Ookami was a side story Ryukishi was making while making Umineko and helping out with Rewrite and whatever else he was dealing with in life... I thought Angel Beats was Maeda's sole project. O.o
Between yes or no, my friend is the one who read its and i'm just listen his story.

Its no matter Ryukishi do that solely or not, but yeah he involved and nothing epic happens. That my points.

I'm not jinx this series... But its best too keep your expectation not too high i guess.
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Old 2010-04-13, 18:54   Link #1098
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...Its no matter Ryukishi do that solely or not...
I think it matters, not to your point but to the story. If Maeda puts his entire heart into this project, then I don't think it'll be a total screw up. =w=

... then again things like that are all relative. I don't think it'll be a bad story to me, but I can't speak for everybody else of course.
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Old 2010-04-13, 19:05   Link #1099
yononaka
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I think it may be a mistake to say that conformity is "demanded" in this world. It is merely encouraged. If it were demanded, I'd expect there to be quite literally "hell to pay" for rebellious actions, but right now those people pretty much get to do whatever they please. The level of corrective action by the Angel (who BTW so far still hasn't fully "won" an encounter) is remarkably benign if she's the agent of presumably all-powerful God. (She does kill, but in this setting that's a slap on the wrist.)

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Considering the fight was spanning for a moderately long time (seeing how the Guild was setup that way), it is hard to believe that Yuri could have that kind of army with reason that doesn't hold the water.
I don't claim that Yuri has all information at hand: there is a margin that she does not know things that Tenshi does. However, it is very likely that Yuri and her fellow men have enough "evidence" to fight against the world.
Beyond the "not-so-happy-with-their-life-and-their-unfair-death", there has to be things that back up the whole concept of "erased people", "NPC" and so forth. Thus why I believe Yuri didn't win so many people just by charisma or her own cause: there has to be something more substancial to have gathered so many people around, and it has to be pertinent enough so that everyone share the same sentiment. Even if it may not be absolute, there should have enough reasons for everyone to brand together against god/the world.
I think for most people the risk of being "erased" would be sufficient to put up a fight. They see people not coming back, don't have any information about what that means, and naturally want to keep existing. Without a guarantee that erasure leads to something better/acceptable, it's a pretty normal reaction to try avoiding it. Just as knowing something can be a reason for your actions, so can not knowing something. In our world, people fear death because they don't know what comes after. In a world where you know you always come back from death, you fear "erasure" because you don't know what comes after.

(Incidentally, I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, just discussing )

It'd be interesting to see the rationale of some of the students who aren't part of the resistance (i.e. why don't they fear erasure?), especially if they've arrived after the resistance started. How many of them are there BTW, compared to the SSS/Guild? I mean conformists, not NPCs (at least I think there's a difference, maybe I'm confused).
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Old 2010-04-13, 19:08   Link #1100
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Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
4. You don't get erased when you are stabbed by Tenshi.
5. Tenshi's distortion skill can't block all objects.



Her headband gives her evade +10 bonus.

The Distortion skill looks to be only useful against ranged as she immediately took action when someone engaged in melee combat. Judging by the first ep, she actually has to drop Distortion to make any violent action as was demonstrated by the melee/RPG tag team maneuver.

Yuri's ability can only be chalked up to experience. If you know someone can teleport into a blind spot, you can adjust accordingly but it doesn't make up for the lack of speed. Yuri managed to avoid Delay only a few times before being overwhelmed by it's capacity. *cough* She's an Evasion tank.
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