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Old 2010-04-20, 08:16   Link #921
Poetic Justice
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They are absolutely comparable, Both have a primary focus in humor that has declined in one, Both have delinquent protagonists who have a similar personality. I'd go so far as to say that the super natural element in beelzebub doesn't even have that much of a major impact in the story. Cue Oga going to different schools and beating up 'normal' studentsl. Yes this may change in the future but I'm inclined to say that about the present.

This along with the fact that both include some of the same used plotlines i:e The protagonist meeting and fighting with the parent/guardian of the heroine.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
It's like saying La Blue Girl should be compared to Naruto
Nice exaggeration there buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Why bother? It's all subjective. It's like trying to argue about whether superman can beat goku or whether gundam 00 can beat gundam wing. It's not going to yield any productive results.
So? It's an internet forum. All opinions are subjective, That doesn't mean we can't argue about them. What would be the point of a debate or argument if were just going to say "opinions are like assholes lulz" and drop it.

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Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
You can offer suggestions but all I've noticed is you making a one sided argument in favor of KKOW.
I've made suggestions a lot of times, In both the current discussion and on previous occasions. It's just that i cite KKOW when it comes to how i think something is done in a better way and how it should be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SageGaiGar View Post
To your credit, I started reading a couple chapters. I fail to see the comparison of one battle/gag manga (Beelzebub) to the comedy high school antics of KKOW. Shonen? yes. But comparable? Not really. Apples and oranges is more like it.
That's very misleading, So KKOW isn't a battle/gag manga as well? What qualifies as a battle/gag manga in your opinion? And what qualifies as high school antics? All of the former elements are which present in both.

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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
An old man on the street suddenly dies of heart attack. What a development for the old man. But who really care for the random old man on the street? As I have said, if you care for the character enough, even a slight change in them you would catch on and be satisfied. That's the point. You must have enough interest in the character.
So what you're actually saying here is that development is basically perceived by the readers and it not actually may be development? Am i getting that right?

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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
When there's such a big adventure/supernatural background in Beelzebub, any retro delinquent high school life manga is a bad comparison imho. Let them be comedic or serious, are nevertheless the yankee slice-of-life type.
But when Beelzebub takes so much from the former and keeps the supernatural element minimal it absolutely deems a comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Beelzebub does not describe Oga's everyday life and relationship.
If you mean that since Oga's life is filled with the supernatural and is thus disqualified from the "everyday life and relationships" state I'd strongly disagree with you there. What qualifies as "everyday life and relationships" anyway? I'd say that most manga with a central protagonist are stories about "Everyday life and relationships" of that character be it a story set on mars or on earth.
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Old 2010-04-20, 08:31   Link #922
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Beelzebub isn't primarily focused on Humor otherwise it'll be riddled with slapstick comedy. Slapstick comedy like Kyou Kare are episodic by nature. It's basically like looney tunes, every event that happens has very little to no effect with every occurring episode. There's no need for a plot, it's just the lets see what kinda whacky things these two numbnuts are gonna do next!

Beelzebub actually has a plot with character development. The characters move forward it doesn't work in an episodic nature (ala simpsons). Comedy is apart of it, but it's not the only thing it's about.

KKOW: Comedy, School, Slice-of-life
Beelzebub: Comedy, Supernatural, Action

They have one subcategory in common and you should automatically compare them? Maybe Full Metal Panic: Comedy, Mecha, Drama, School-life, should be compared too? It has 2 subcategories in common with KKOW.
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Old 2010-04-20, 08:43   Link #923
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Like i said before, What makes Beelzebub have a "plot"? The fact that it has a goal about a baby who will eventually destroy the earth? Okay, and what about everything that happens until that point? Is that the "plot"? In that case the events for Beelzebub so far have had a minimum effect of what will happen in the "plot". What im arguing about is not the "plot" but the events happening and characters appearing in the story that do not affect the overall "plot" which are very similar and absoultely comparable.

Oh and if were gonna go with categories then according to onemanga:

KKOW: Action, Comedy, School Life, Shounen
Beelzebub: Action, Comedy, Supernatural, Shounen

Oh snap, 3 out of 4 is bad, eh?
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Old 2010-04-20, 11:34   Link #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post

So? It's an internet forum. All opinions are subjective, That doesn't mean we can't argue about them. What would be the point of a debate or argument if were just going to say "opinions are like assholes lulz" and drop it.

Yes, it's an internet forum and you know what they say about arguments on the internet. I mean, the whole act of coming onto a series thread to proclaim that the series isn't good and that another series is much better than it is kinda...

As for the diff. plot progression of both series, Beelzebub has like 4 volumes like I said and KKOW has 9 scanlated so far. If the 8 volume one failed to beat the 4 volume one, I'd be surprised. Secondly, both series are filled with similar archetypes. Up to volume 4 of KKOW, Riko and Aoi could pretty much be said to fill the same type of char. role. Same for mitsuhashi and oga. However, Beelzebub has hinted at something other than delinquent drama while KKOW is still mostly 'mitsuhashi pwns random people/delinquents/imai'. It does it pretty well but like someone said before, it's very episodic, like an american sitcom. Also, in 9 volumes, nothing has really changed in KKOW while beelzebub has had a totally new change of scenery with the previous school/setting being destroyed. Whether this new change will bring anything interesting on the table has yet to be seen but at least it's a change.
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Old 2010-04-20, 12:57   Link #925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
Like i said before, What makes Beelzebub have a "plot"? The fact that it has a goal about a baby who will eventually destroy the earth? Okay, and what about everything that happens until that point? Is that the "plot"? In that case the events for Beelzebub so far have had a minimum effect of what will happen in the "plot". What im arguing about is not the "plot" but the events happening and characters appearing in the story that do not affect the overall "plot" which are very similar and absoultely comparable.

Oh and if were gonna go with categories then according to onemanga:

KKOW: Action, Comedy, School Life, Shounen
Beelzebub: Action, Comedy, Supernatural, Shounen

Oh snap, 3 out of 4 is bad, eh?
KKOW has action? I wouldn't call that action by any stretch of the word. When Peter fights against the Chicken man in Family Guy is more worthy of the subtext of "Action".

How are the characters even comparable?

Main Protagonist:
Oga: Extremely Overpowered, Contracted with the future king of hell, seemingly evil but is actually a pretty nice guy.

Mitsusashi: King of cheap shots, maniacal egomaniac, would use his own mother as a human shield.

Side Kicks:
Furichi: A coward, weak, and a womanizer.

Itou: Brave, honest, capable in a street fight, an overall popular and nice guy.

Female leads:
Aoi and Hilda: Aoi, very strong and capable, was once the leader of a female gang but gave it up to pursuit Oga. Very Moe, shy, and obedient when it comes to Oga. Hilda is a demon with extremely powerful sword skills with summoning abilities. Personality is very straight forward and seemingly cold. Has motherlike qualities when with Baby B.

Riko: Strong, but will lose in a serious fight against a strong man. Loud/foul mouthed, quick to the punch, lacks overall feminine qualities.

Every opponent in KKOW are generic delinquents, easily forgettable. The only reoccurring one is Imai and his lackey, which only exist for the sake of comedic relief. The only non generic opponent so far is the red head kid. But now that he got his ass kicked he's gone now.

In Beelzebub all of Oga's opponents actually have a name and unique personalities who doesn't disappear after getting their ass kicked. In fact are now allies of Oga.
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Old 2010-04-20, 13:23   Link #926
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The 'gag' in my opinion is how overpowered Oga is. KKOW and Beelzebub have very different types of stories aside from the 'scenery'.

And arguments on the internet are made to be lost Pyrrhic victory if you will.
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Old 2010-04-20, 14:44   Link #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
Like i said before, What makes Beelzebub have a "plot"? The fact that it has a goal about a baby who will eventually destroy the earth? Okay, and what about everything that happens until that point? Is that the "plot"? In that case the events for Beelzebub so far have had a minimum effect of what will happen in the "plot". What im arguing about is not the "plot" but the events happening and characters appearing in the story that do not affect the overall "plot" which are very similar and absoultely comparable.

Oh and if were gonna go with categories then according to onemanga:

KKOW: Action, Comedy, School Life, Shounen
Beelzebub: Action, Comedy, Supernatural, Shounen

Oh snap, 3 out of 4 is bad, eh?
You seriously think Beelzebub will not have any underlying plot at all? (even though the plot might turn out to be meh).

Well, I didn't see One Piece has any sort of strong for the first 50 chapter either. Did those small arc about Zoro, Nami, Usopp have any real contribution to the main plot that appears much later on, rather than just introducing the characters? Same here for Beelzebub, we are being introduced all of the potentially main characters later on.

Personally I wouldn't call Shounen a genre. It's just an indicator of which audience's age the manga's aiming at. Heck, the whole premise of comparing manga with the same genre is flawed in the first place, since the classification of genre is flawed itself.

Beelzebub: Action, Comedy, Supernatural, Shounen. Lets throw in school life and delinquent if you want it.
Great Teacher Onizuka: Action, Comedy, school-life, shounen, delinquent.
Or say, To-Love Ru: "Action," Comedy, school-life, supernatural, Shounen.

Let's compare Beelzebub and To-Love Ru! Absurd. Since those two, despite having "a lot in common," have a huge difference that can be reconcile by no mean: To-Love Ru being a harem romance.

Same for Beelzebub and KKOW. When KKOW is so obvious episodic slice-of-life, Beelzebub is clearly "adventure." It's so obviously planned to be a long-run adventure series in Jump.

Don't argue for "development" in KKOW, Doraemon has those kinds of development. And in fact, Beelzebub has no need for substantial character development itself, because it SHOULD be plot-driven instead. And don't argue Beelzebub is slice-of-life, or we shall call Dragon Ball slice-of-life, shall we? It's Goku everywhere after all, we see him as a kid, learning, cooking, hunting, training, make friends, marry, have kids and grandkids, "educate" them, dying).
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Old 2010-04-20, 19:17   Link #928
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Here we go again, Oh Boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
As for the diff. plot progression of both series, Beelzebub has like 4 volumes like I said and KKOW has 9 scanlated so far. If the 8 volume one failed to beat the 4 volume one, I'd be surprised.
The difference between them is around 20 chapters, Not one to make a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
However, Beelzebub has hinted at something other than delinquent drama...
Something more than delinquent drama, I need to re-read it, Because there's apparently a whole level of deepness to Beelzebub i failed to perceive.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
...while KKOW is still mostly 'mitsuhashi pwns random people/delinquents/imai'.
This can easily be re-written as:
Beelzebub is still mostly Oga pwns random people/delinquents/guardians. See, I can make blanket statements too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
while beelzebub has had a totally new change of scenery with the previous school/setting being destroyed.Whether this new change will bring anything interesting on the table has yet to be seen but at least it's a change.
Absolutely nothing has changed except that former enemies are now allies. The same happened for KKOW. In these past 10 chapters since the new arc began we've basically seen the same cycle like I've stated countless times before.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
KKOW has action? I wouldn't call that action by any stretch of the word. When Peter fights against the Chicken man in Family Guy is more worthy of the subtext of "Action".
Once again you're making an exaggeration. KKOW absolutely has action as found most commonly in manga. The latest fight is just proof of this. If you're going to go with your 'own' definition that's a whole different argument.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
How are the characters even comparable?

Main Protagonist:
Oga: Extremely Overpowered, Contracted with the future king of hell, seemingly evil but is actually a pretty nice guy.

Mitsusashi: King of cheap shots, maniacal egomaniac, would use his own mother as a human shield.
So many of the character traits are interchangable here. Mitsuhashi is also overpowered, seemingly evil but a pretty good guy. Oga and mitsuhashi are also people who shirk from responsibility at the slightest hint of it. There is too much common here to be ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
*Long post about character comparisons.
What is your point with this? When did i say there were 100 percent identical? And why do they have to be perfectly identical in order to make a comparison? I'll elaborate on this later on.


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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Every opponent in KKOW are generic delinquents, easily forgettable.
Funny you say that, Beelzebub has only had one memorable villain so far. Same is the case with the red haired kid who will re-appear as a villain later on in the manga as confirmed by a scanlator on another board.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
The only reoccurring one is Imai and his lackey, which only exist for the sake of comedic relief.
And what do the recurring villains-turned-allies in Beelzebub serve a purpose for? Oh that's right its nothing other than comedic relief. Also Imai and his lackey are allies of mitsuhashi whether directly stated or not. Imai was beaten and is now subservient, Just like all those in Beelzebub.
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
In Beelzebub all of Oga's opponents actually have a name and unique personalities
This just made me laugh, Pray tell what these unique personalities may be. With the exception of Toujo the rest of the villains have been boring and utterly forgettable. Also i stated this before in the thread but the way Toujou and Mikki were introduced is 90 percent similar.

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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
You seriously think Beelzebub will not have any underlying plot at all? (even though the plot might turn out to be meh).

Well, I didn't see One Piece has any sort of strong for the first 50 chapter either. Did those small arc about Zoro, Nami, Usopp have any real contribution to the main plot that appears much later on, rather than just introducing the characters? Same here for Beelzebub, we are being introduced all of the potentially main characters later on.
I'm basing my opinion on what has been presented so far and i'm inclined to believe that the impact of the current plotlines will be minimal towards the end goal.

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Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Personally I wouldn't call Shounen a genre. It's just an indicator of which audience's age the manga's aiming at. Heck, the whole premise of comparing manga with the same genre is flawed in the first place, since the classification of genre is flawed itself.

Beelzebub: Action, Comedy, Supernatural, Shounen. Lets throw in school life and delinquent if you want it.
Great Teacher Onizuka: Action, Comedy, school-life, shounen, delinquent.
Or say, To-Love Ru: "Action," Comedy, school-life, supernatural, Shounen.

Let's compare Beelzebub and To-Love Ru! Absurd. Since those two, despite having "a lot in common," have a huge difference that can be reconcile by no mean: To-Love Ru being a harem romance.
If Beelzebub and to-love ru have elements in them which are similar then those elements are certainly comparable. But since the primary element of to-love ru can be considered as 'romance' comparisons may not be apt. The primary element of both KKOW and Beelzebub is comedy, action and school life. The supernatural element has had a minimal effect on the story thus far and though that may change in the future, In it's current state the two are absolutely comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Same for Beelzebub and KKOW. When KKOW is so obvious episodic slice-of-life, Beelzebub is clearly "adventure." It's so obviously planned to be a long-run adventure series in Jump.


Don't argue for "development" in KKOW, Doraemon has those kinds of development. And in fact, Beelzebub has no need for substantial character development itself, because it SHOULD be plot-driven instead. And don't argue Beelzebub is slice-of-life, or we shall call Dragon Ball slice-of-life, shall we? It's Goku everywhere after all, we see him as a kid, learning, cooking, hunting, training, make friends, marry, have kids and grandkids, "educate" them, dying).
KKOW and Beelzebub are not "slice-of-life". If you read my earlier statement carefully i used the term "everyday life and relationships" and avoided slice of life. Slice-of-life is generalized as the everyday life of a "normal" person. Mitsuhashi is neither ordinary nor is the manga following the patterns of a slice of life manga. It is by all accounts following the pattern of a typical shounen manga where the protagonist is progressively beating harder baddies and getting stronger.

Now there is no doubt that Beelzebub takes a lot from other shounen manga's, Not just KKOW. But the execution falls flat a lot of times and it tends to be hit-and-miss.

The concept for the baby is probably taken from Hitman Reborn or Zatch Bell. But oh noes we can't make a comparison there because in Beelzebub the baby can't talk!!!!

All these elements give a poor amalgamation of shounen principles, Resulting in something that is neither fun nor all that interesting.

Last edited by Poetic Justice; 2010-04-20 at 20:00.
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Old 2010-04-20, 20:01   Link #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
Spoiler for snip:

Your arguments are extremely poor, it's just a "lol no it's not, yes it is" reply.

and LMAO @ Mitsusashi being OP. And Beelzebub doesn't have 1 memorable enemy because every single enemy that Oga has beaten is a regular character and not a "generic delinquent of the week"
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Old 2010-04-20, 21:24   Link #930
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Well, like I said, it's all subjective. You think nothing's changed, other people do. You think they're all the same, other people don't. Your point would be? Are you trying to change people's minds or try to prove your own subjective point of view? Cause I don't think either is working.

It's not like Oga can be said to pwn random delinquents because unlike KKOW, a lot of those delinquents actually come back like someone else said before.
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Old 2010-04-21, 18:06   Link #931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poetic Justice
I'm basing my opinion on what has been presented so far and i'm inclined to believe that the impact of the current plotlines will be minimal towards the end goal.
Based on what has been presented so far, you can't say naught about it will contribute to a bigger plot later or not.

It's just your wild guess. Which has no value to discuss or argue on whatsoever.

Quote:
The primary element of both KKOW and Beelzebub is comedy, action and school life. The supernatural element has had a minimal effect on the story thus far and though that may change in the future, In it's current state the two are absolutely comparable.
Why is the primary element of Beelzebub comedy, action, school life again? You say Beelzebub is comedy but it's not fun, action but the fights suck, school life but there's not enough everyday character development/interaction.

Dude, it's like insisting on One Piece being a romance manga that doesn't enough romance. Because it doesn't have romance that it's not a romance manga. Like Beelzebub, its a Jump's long-run adventure series, not a slapstick school life comedy. Don't insist that it is a comedy that has not enough jokes...

Not to mention the comedy is fun or not, the fights suck or not, etc. They are all your subjective opinion. If it sucks to you but good to many others, it is generally good. That's the rule of the game.

P/s: I don't think KKOW's "action" is worth comparing either...
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Old 2010-04-23, 18:37   Link #932
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OMG, this chapter

Spoiler for Beelzebub 58:
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:35   Link #933
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Spoiler for 58:
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Old 2010-04-27, 15:25   Link #934
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Oga is finally serious, can't wait for some ass kicking!
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:45   Link #935
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lol loved how Toujou went back to old school, that there is some simple comedy gold right there

also gotta love when Oga hits Kanzaki, everyones reactions were great.

gotta love the cover page, Hilda is just

lets have some moar Oga rampaging!

haven't had a body plant in a while, think we're overdue one
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Old 2010-04-27, 17:48   Link #936
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Baby-B still can't get the finger right
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Old 2010-04-28, 00:27   Link #937
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So Oga refuses to let anyone steal his spotlight. It's a shame really, it would have been nice to see Kanzaki get his revenge, or at least "try" to get his revenge. All that bad-ass entrance for nothing.
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Old 2010-04-28, 10:17   Link #938
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ANYONE stepping into Oga's fight before it's done is so not cool...best part's Toujou coming by, he should reach school by the end of the next chapter, if he doesn't run into Zaraki looking for Ichigo
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Old 2010-04-28, 13:25   Link #939
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Funny see Toujou have mistaken school
Poor Kanzaki that return for revenge but Oga take out him too (too funny the face of Aoi there)
And finally Oga become serious, really wait the next chapter now^^
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Old 2010-05-05, 11:21   Link #940
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Spoiler pics!

Spoiler for Beelzebub 59 pics:
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