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Old 2010-04-21, 09:19   Link #8561
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
How Maria learned so much about magic is something I can't quite iron out. I've thought it out a couple times, but the only satisfying answers involve assumptions.
*snip*
All three theories are sensible and all three have the same single problem -- Rosa.

Oh, don't forget also that:
  • Maria reads the "This door opens with the probability..." on chapel doors better than Battler does - in English. And berates him for it. She also seems to know what a quadrillion is.
  • Maria may not actually know Hebrew but she has to remember the Hebrew alphabet at least to properly reproduce a Key of Solomon magic circle, and at least once in Ep1 she does this from memory.
  • Maria is capable of writing an extensive diary at 9. In Japanese, mind you. So she not only knows those long words she uses habitually when in Full Magic Mode, she also knows how they're written. I may be wrong about that, but I expect her kanji vocabulary well exceeds the school program for her age.

She's very clearly much smarter than Rosa thinks she is -- naive and pure, surely, but not stupid by far.

The only solution that gets rid of the Rosa problem is that Rosa is the one doing the teaching herself, which means she would have to be of two or more minds about it, not to mention either being unaware of it or being extremely effective in improvisational theatre. There is some supporting and some contradicting evidence, both of it open to interpretation:
  • Rosa definitely seems to be of two minds about Maria herself, flipping between loving her daughter - out of duty or for any genuine reason - and hating her as the stopping block on further development of her life. It even goes so far as Maria bringing up possession by an 'evil witch' repeatedly. What's interesting, Rosa's own narration seems to agree and Rosa even repeats it out loud.
  • Maria's diary contains writing both by an unknown 'Beatrice' and by 'Virgilia', who is generally believed to be Kumasawa's 'magical representation'. Rosa is unusually friendly with Kumasawa on at least one occasion -- in Ep1 she brings her a package she says is tea, which means she either remembered a promise for a year or was in contact soon prior. In Ep3, Rosa narrates trusting the servants more than she trusts her siblings, naming Genji and Kumasawa (who were around all the time she lived in the mansion) in particular.
  • Someone with the same 'Beatrice' handwriting sent people letters with keys to a huge amount of money that Rosa doesn't seem to have a way to amass.
  • At least one person who ends up being Beatrice is supposed to be in love with Battler, which, in case of Rosa, would be exceedingly silly, and Battler is way too young to be Maria's father for that matter.
  • In the end of Ep2, Rosa is the one who ends up disbelieving Beatrice rather than Battler himself, who actually surrenders, which would imply she's either genuinely schizophrenic or not Beatrice in any way, shape or form.
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Old 2010-04-21, 09:36   Link #8562
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Maria is capable of writing an extensive diary at 9. In Japanese, mind you. So she not only knows those long words she uses habitually when in Full Magic Mode, she also knows how they're written. I may be wrong about that, but I expect her kanji vocabulary well exceeds the school program for her age.
That's not necessarily true. Children of that age simply use hiragana whenever they do not know the right kanji for the words they want to write.
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Old 2010-04-21, 11:34   Link #8563
momobunny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Maria's diary contains writing both by an unknown 'Beatrice' and by 'Virgilia', who is generally believed to be Kumasawa's 'magical representation'. Rosa is unusually friendly with Kumasawa on at least one occasion -- in Ep1 she brings her a package she says is tea, which means she either remembered a promise for a year or was in contact soon prior. In Ep3, Rosa narrates trusting the servants more than she trusts her siblings, naming Genji and Kumasawa (who were around all the time she lived in the mansion) in particular.
I thought it was Natsuhi that Rosa got the tea for... or some sort of medicine that helps with headaches.
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Old 2010-04-21, 12:10   Link #8564
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I thought it was Natsuhi that Rosa got the tea for... or some sort of medicine that helps with headaches.
She actually did both. In the beginning of Ep1, during the boat scene, Rosa gives Kumasawa a package which she says is tea she referred to previously.

Later, in the dinner hall, she gives Natsuhi another package, which Kyrie actually identifies as tea by smell.
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Old 2010-04-21, 14:31   Link #8565
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I'm going to go on a tangent here and give my theory for the logic error. Rather than be all mysterious and try saying use chessboard thinking I'll just say it. It was a bluff, a big one and something Beatrice does constantly in previous games. I'll use the car trick and EVA-Beatrice's final puzzle as examples. In ep 4 Beatrice used the car trick and knew it was a 50-50 chance that it would work as intended, put aside the question of whether it's a magic scene and just looking at it, worked wonders for me as it helped into looking at Beatrice's character. There was a risk in doing that trick since it might not work, just like how Beatrice works. Same goes with EVA-Beatrice's puzzle, there was a huge risk in exposing the fact a human was the cause of the game, thus ending it rather quickly at that point. But it worked Battler was (initially) stunned and unable to do anything because of the shock value of the puzzle. It's a bluff more than anything else, it was easy to solve after thinking about it.

Now look at the logic error. Erika knew what the logic error entailed, the game would be unsolvable but the blame would be placed on the GM. She had no way of solving the game at that point and knew it. At least that would be going through my mind if I was Erika. When Beatrice solved it, Erika has no way to fathom how it was done. She was shocked at the solution, and had no way of solving it at that point. But if Erika calmed down and thought about it she would probably question the living status of Kanon. If she did that then she would have won. Beatrice took a big risk in using Kanon to solve the puzzle. That is the trick of Beatrice and witches at least that is what I came up with. I think that Kanon's entry and sudden death was obvious but that wasn't the actual trick, it's the shock value and the ability to make the Detectives think they are trapped in a logic error. It uses a big-ass risk to do so however since the solution would be something extremely simple and there was a chance that it would be solved in a matter of minutes. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 2010-04-21, 14:47   Link #8566
Judoh
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When I read episode 5 the first time and found out Battler was a sorcerer I thought episode 6 would end up being about denying the Golden Sorcerer Battler, but it ended up being more about Erika, Shannon, and Kanon from what I read in the spoiler thread.
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Old 2010-04-21, 15:56   Link #8567
Oliver
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Umineko Dates Timeline

Much better now.
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Old 2010-04-21, 21:02   Link #8568
Kylon99
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By the way, this was posted on 2ch some time ago. Not that it leads to anything but it's an interesting idea. Some people think that Rokkenjima was based part on Tsurushima, at least, I think, on it's shape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuru_Shima

Of interest is the fact that it was a Christian penal colony where 18 Christians died, 17 of which as martyrs. So... there's those numbers again. 17 and 18. The total population of prisoners were 117 though. Maybe that's why Battler thought there was an army of 100 other people out on Rokkenjima. 8)

Anyone make anything out of this?
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Old 2010-04-21, 21:29   Link #8569
Thunder Book
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Wouldn't surprise me if Ryukishi based Rokkenjima off of it. He based the Mansion as well as Hinamizawa off of existing places, correct?
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:02   Link #8570
Oliver
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I think I have accidentally found where the key to the Golden Land is. Well, not really, I suspect it has been tried before, but, if it was, it would be interesting to see why it's not it, because I don't remember it brought up. Here's my reasoning:

It's Ep3 and the siblings are finally actually trying to solve the epitaph.
  • Siblings know the 'beloved hometown', but won't say the name aloud. George and Maria did the same thing with 'quadrillion' in Ep2, giving unsubtle hints instead, so I suspect it is important.
  • Eva went there as a vacation, so it is a vacation or tourism spot, or somewhere close to one.
  • The town completely changed because of being caught up in the war. Having just assembled the timeline, where the issue did come up, I noticed that there are remarkably few places in Japan or territories owned by Japan prior to Kinzo's birth actually caught up in the war, that is, heavily carpet bombed or suffering long term land battles. For most of the war the Allies had no range to actually bomb the mainland or anything beyond the isolated islands, as IJN dominated the sea. The actual strategic raids only commenced very late in the war.
  • According to Rudolf, it had a remarkable revival and was rebuilt. Which means that now, it should be quite populated.
  • Kyrie thinks the river is a metaphor. But if it is, it's a metaphor for something that's flowing or moving. Like a road.

Let's list the places that were actually strategic bombing targets or land battle areas in the Pacific campaign on Japan mainland or Japan-controlled islands, discounting places which are not major population centers in 1986, weren't hit hard enough to call it a complete rebuilding, and places which are not vacation or tourism spots for the Japanese:
  • Raid on Taipei in May 1943. With tens of thousands people displaced, I expect major rebuilding was required. Definitely a tourism spot for the Japanese.
  • Battle of Okinawa in April-June 1945. Numerous casualties, atrocities, 90% of the buildings on the island completely destroyed, proverbial vacation and internal tourism spot.

Surprisingly, that's all of them - everything else doesn't fit the constraints.

For Okinawa, speaks the 'Kin Town' which is so immediately suspicious with the kanji for 'gold' in it that it causes an immediate 'aha!' - but this, I believe, has been brought up before with no good results. But for Taipei speaks the rather unexpected and nonsequitur mention of Kinzo being in the habit of chewing the areca nut by Krauss to Natsuhi in a flashback. Taiwan was part of Japan since 1895 and up until 1949, which is is quite sufficient for Kinzo to even be born there.

Got to be Taipei. Any ideas on the river?
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:04   Link #8571
Kaisos Erranon
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It's a railroad.
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:11   Link #8572
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Of interest is the fact that it was a Christian penal colony where 18 Christians died, 17 of which as martyrs. So... there's those numbers again. 17 and 18. The total population of prisoners were 117 though. Maybe that's why Battler thought there was an army of 100 other people out on Rokkenjima. 8)

Anyone make anything out of this?
One of the dead NOT dying a martyr, that is, not dying by being tortured for declaring their faith in God, i.e. disbelief in the witch, but for some other unspecified reason, is indeed resemblance that transcends into structural.
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:19   Link #8573
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernkastel
And annoyingly, the actual location isn't spoken of in any of the Fragments.
George and Shannon went to Okinawa. Therefore, Okinawa is not the key.
If you're willing to trust Bernkastel, then that narrows it down to just Taipei.
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:20   Link #8574
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's a railroad.
But this one or this one? Or one of those?
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:20   Link #8575
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's a railroad.
This is the prevailing theory and is almost certainly correct. For those missing the evidence:

Eva notes that sweetfish swim up and down rivers, much like people on a rail line travel both up and down the line (rarely do people only take a train one way). Rosa says she didn't need that hint. So it needs to be something that you could figure out without the part about the fish. I think it's not unreasonable to suspect the "river" is a road or train line or something other than an actual river without needing the sweetfish hint, so it's entirely plausible the two would reach such a conclusion with or without that concept in mind.

The atlas further seals it; it would be something you would see in an atlas.

The Danshui Line ran from Taipei to Danshui ("Fresh Water") in Taiwan. However, we know the gold (and the way to it) is on the island.

Therefore, whatever you look for in the atlas is the key. A theory was explained here months ago involving the "Taiwan Theory," the Danshui Line, and the stations along it. Allegedly the key was a certain number of stops down the line. The key was alleged to be a word, but the word didn't fit the epitaph... unless it was in English. The English words were then subtracted from "quadrillion." There was some other stuff but this was alleged to be the key.

The theory suggested that the answer, in English, is childish. This would make sense of Eva's comment about it. It's really not a difficult riddle if you can think in more languages than just Japanese. And we know Kinzo could.

Here's the rub: the Danshui Line no longer exists. It was destroyed and replaced by another line (also called the Danshui) in 1988. So the line Kinzo would have referred to would have to be the old line. I don't have any maps of that, so I have no idea if the new line map works just as well.

There's also the fact that Battler somehow solved it in ep5, even though his English isn't very good. So either you don't need much English to solve the epitaph, Battler is doing better than he lets on, or Erika supplied the English.

This is one of the more popular epitaph theories in the english community, and I think the Japanese community as well. The question is what happens after you have the key, since whatever you do, you do it on the island.

EDIT: Ah yes, it was Qilian. QUADRILLION - Qilian = LORDU. The theory went on from there, I don't remember it, but the childish part was the "LORDU."
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:33   Link #8576
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
EDIT: Ah yes, it was Qilian. QUADRILLION - Qilian = LORDU. The theory went on from there, I don't remember it, but the childish part was the "LORDU."
...why does that remind me of UUDDLRLRBA? Shame Gradius for NES only came out when Kinzo was already dead.
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:36   Link #8577
TkMacintosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...why does that remind me of UUDDLRLRBA? Shame Gradius for NES only came out when Kinzo was already dead.
so could we translate LORDU as:

Left
Over(only bit that doesn't make sense D: )
Right
Down
Under/Up?
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:39   Link #8578
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...why does that remind me of UUDDLRLRBA? Shame Gradius for NES only came out when Kinzo was already dead.
It's the "honorable name."

LORDU = Lord Ushiromiya.

That's what's childish about it.
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Old 2010-04-21, 22:49   Link #8579
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
so could we translate LORDU as:

Left
Over(only bit that doesn't make sense D: )
Right
Down
Under/Up?
Well, according to Ep5, operating some kind of mechanism is involved, isn't it?

...wait a minute.

I wonder if it could be the chapel door lock.

I have already mentioned above that it seems to me that the chapel door lock just doesn't work or is otherwise broken, and the impression that it is locked results from the door sticking on the slightly extended bolt that doesn't retract or extend further.

But what it it was always supposed to be this way?

P.S. 'O' in this case would mean 'out', i.e. 'pull'.
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Old 2010-04-21, 23:03   Link #8580
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Here's the rub: the Danshui Line no longer exists. It was destroyed and replaced by another line (also called the Danshui) in 1988. So the line Kinzo would have referred to would have to be the old line. I don't have any maps of that, so I have no idea if the new line map works just as well.
It shouldn't matter, should it? The only part of the line that matters is that you follow it "downstream" from Danshui and arrive at Qilian at some point, and that was true in both versions of the line, even though the old and new Qilians are different stations.

For reference, here is a summary of a niconico video that went through the evidence for the theory point by point. The note about the stone monuments at the old Qilian station was especially interesting.
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