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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-04-17, 16:12   Link #81
ZGoten
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^Oh, seems like I remembered that wrong, it's been quite a while since that happened.
What I don't get though, is that Kakashi said he sent the explosion to another dimension. So why wasn't this the case with the arm? Why was the arm sent to another place in the same dimension?
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Old 2010-04-17, 16:19   Link #82
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A random place, eh? Pretty far fetched, his arm appearing so near to him is a one in a million chance.

Deidara's arms are mystery in itself, though. His other arm was crushed to bits by Gaara's sand. I also doubt Kakuzu could make arms with mouths in it. Maybe Deidara created the mouth on his arm again using his technique, after gaining a new one.

Anyway, this is going off topic
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Old 2010-04-17, 19:10   Link #83
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So why wasn't this the case with the arm? Why was the arm sent to another place in the same dimension?
maybe Kakashi's Mangekyou is not good enough.... that maybe the reason why the kamui has different locations when suck out...... random places......

maybe if kakashi mastered it well.... he can do what Tobi do when going to a different place in just a second.....


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Anyway, this is going off topic
Its just to prove that Tobi and Kakashi's sucking power is kinda the same...... because you said its not.......
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Old 2010-04-17, 19:18   Link #84
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That's a lot of maybes
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Old 2010-04-17, 21:11   Link #85
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That's a lot of maybes
Well, maybe it is. Maybe you should accept the truth. Maybe this is not the truth at all. Maybe truth is not defined by perception. Maybe there is no truth.
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Old 2010-04-18, 10:17   Link #86
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^Oh, seems like I remembered that wrong, it's been quite a while since that happened.
What I don't get though, is that Kakashi said he sent the explosion to another dimension. So why wasn't this the case with the arm? Why was the arm sent to another place in the same dimension?
Maybe Madara could go to that dimension and take back the arm. Maybe that's why Madara is immune to Kakashi's jutsu - he can perfectly counter it.
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Old 2010-04-18, 11:08   Link #87
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Maybe Madara could go to that dimension and take back the arm. Maybe that's why Madara is immune to Kakashi's jutsu - he can perfectly counter it.
Actually, when Deidara found his arm, it was indeed Madara who was holding it (while acting Tobi).
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Old 2010-04-18, 11:36   Link #88
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I think is ( Madara ) ...

Because it is a stranger and we don't know him just a little, and he too strong and intelligent.
It is strange that a high fighting abilities

<< My english very Weak.. sorry
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Old 2010-04-18, 12:28   Link #89
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Actually, when Deidara found his arm, it was indeed Madara who was holding it (while acting Tobi).
If it was the same dimention, the exploding clay clone should've blasted the arm into pieces.
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Old 2010-04-18, 23:12   Link #90
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Hmmm... so Obito is tied with Bruce Wayne currently... which is ranked third.

I have to say I can't imagine it's JUST Madara. If it has anything to do with Madara at all it will be him in another body or someone else with his power at the most. I mean how pathetic would all this suspense and mystery with the mask be if it's simply the character he claimed to be a hundred manga's before they decide to remove the mask? Why would Kishi go out of his way to avoid showing his face like the time Tobi takes off the mask for Kisame when he had already revealed his claim as Madara if that were the only case. I just can't believe Madara has the most votes right now. Despite everything that's happened in the manga sense Pain, I still have more faith in Kishi than that.

Alright, I just did some reading. Yeah I think the best evidence for Tobi being Obito used to be the same intact eye and similar abilities to Kakashi. Izanagi made the missing eye thing loose it's importance because that obviously could have been what Madara used to survive at the Valley of the End. But we still have this thing with the dimension ability. If it's not something unique to Tobi/Obito (and now Kakashi) what is it? Is it some other sharringan tech? and if so, why haven't any of the other sharringan users performed it or anything like it? If it's common to any advanced sharringan then certainly Itachi, Sasuke, and probably even Danzou would be more proficient with it's abilities than Kakashi. I believe it's something unique to the user like Shizui's mind control ability, otherwise you'd see other Uchiha taking advantage of such a useful talent. It's as deadly as Amaterasu (get rid the target just by looking at them), but at the same time it can also be used as a defensive measure as seen by Tobi. The problem is if it's not common, but a unique ability, you have to assume Kakashi and Tobi both have theirs from the same source. I haven't really ever read a decent argument to an alternative for this. Would some non-Tobi=Obito person mind addressing this? (looks at James sense he at least acknowledges the similarities between Kakashi's and Tobi's abilities) And please don't bother with the "they are completely different techniques" thing. I think enough people have shown manga images showing both abilities are sucking things into other dimensions. Kakashi's is simply less focused so he doesn't have the added bonus of being able to retrieve what he gets rid of or send himself in.

This is a little off topic, but I was also wondering whoever Tobi is, he's got a room full of Sharringans and maybe even a rennagin or two, so any ideas as to why he doesn't use one himself for his seemingly missing left eye? My theory is he's after an EMS to replace it, and that's why he's been encouraging the encounter between Itachi and Sasuke, and ever sense encouraging Sasuke to go ahead and take his brother's eyes. If that's the case, Sasuke better watch his back now.

Last edited by Emilis; 2010-04-19 at 13:56.
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Old 2010-04-21, 23:11   Link #91
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Would some non-Tobi=Obito person mind addressing this?
Actually I'll address as a Tobi=Obito person. In fact, I'll ante it up by saying I have undeniable proof that Tobi is Obito. First take a look at this overlooked gem before I begin:
Spoiler for Manga 487 pg. 04:


What we see here is Madara stopping Kakashi from using his MS Kamui, claiming that it will not work on him. BUT Madara has, at this point in time, never seen Kakashi use that move in person. In fact, Sasuke was shocked that Kakashi even knows Mangekyou Sharingan a couple pages back. Madara's only source of info on Kakashi's MS is from Deidara. So why is he so confident he can negate Kakashi's MS?

First take a look at the only other specimen of MS: Itachi and Sasuke's eyes. We can infer that each and every eye has a unique ability, to the point where the left and the right eyes have completely different abilities. This proves why Kakashi and Madara's abilities differ.

Also, in the Sasuke VS KillerBee battle, we also learned that Amaterasu can be negated by Tsukuyomi. In other words, The Eye of Destruction can be negated by the Eye of Utility. Taken that fact into account, we can deduce that:

The Eye of Destruction (Left eye) = Amaterasu and Kamui
The Eye of Utility (Right eye) = Tsukuyomi and Madara's Time/Space Jutsu

So therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that Madara is so confident that he can negate Kamui without even witnessing it firsthand is because he holds the counterpart eye. And thus Madara (or at least his eye) is indefinitely Obito's.

P.S.- Manga #486, page 04, proves that "Tobi's" other eye is current vacant.

Addendum: The Theory of Susano
You need two eyes to activate. So Kakashi/Madara is definitely not going to be able to activate it. Also, it taxes the vision more than the other 2 abilities.
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Old 2010-04-22, 00:29   Link #92
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^That doesn't actually prove that Madara/Tobi's eye is, or should I say was, Obito's eye. Madara has extensive knowledge of the MS, Sharingan, and the techniques it posses. He has shown this knowledge by somehow dispelling (or at least negating) Amaterasu; explaining the difference between a complete and incomplete Susano’o (as well as mentioning how rare it is for the technique to appear at all); and he has explained several ultimate attacks that the Sharingan posses (Shisui's mind-control, and the recently revealed Izanagi). So, it stands to reason that, even after only hearing of Kakashi's technique, he could already know of its presence within the pantheon of Sharingan techniques (i.e., while not "common", it is still known). We must recall that Madara, more or less, invented the Mangekyo Sharingan, so he would know best about the mutated eye.

(I should point out now, even if just as a quibble, Sasuke and Itachi's eyes are reversed - their Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi come out of different eyes; I don't know if that necessarily negates your theory (it does, somewhat, for Itachi and Sasuke, but not necessarily for Obito's potential 2nd eye), but it does show that the basic pattern (EoD - left, EoU - right) doesn't carry through from person to person (though there is always a separation (left and right eye each contain one known technique, and both can be used for another technique (and 4 eyes can be used for a 4th technique)).)

That being said, Madara’s technique, and Kakashi’s Kamui are too similar to really be classified as different techniques (they both, essentially, do the same thing (transport matter from one place to another), but Madara is able to more accurately and adequately use his technique.

Additionally, since the MS grants one supreme Ninjutsu, and one supreme Genjutsu, Obito’s other eye, wherever it is, should be a genjutsu eye, not a Ninjutsu eye (since Kakashi already has the ninjutsu eye).

(Also, I should mention that it is still unknown if Madara is even using his MS when using his technique. It could be possible that his Time/Space thingy is actually simply a Sharingan technique ala Izanagi, and that is why he retains so many Sharingans...)

To expand further, though, the negation of powers seems a bit of a stretch. Tsukuyomi does not negate Amaterasu (no, Sasuke using his Tsukuyomi eye to dispel Amaterasu was not a form of negation, he could simply control the Amaterasu flame with his non-Amaterasu eye), nor does whatever Madara/Tobi (if it is a MS technique) does negate Kamui. If they are connected eyes, it wouldn't be that the one eye negates the other; it would be that one eye is simply more powerful than the other. In fact, at least for Sasuke and Itachi, Madara/Tobi already explained that each brother was more geared toward a specific eye, and, consequently, that eye was significantly more powerful than the other - Sasuke's Tsukuyomi sucked (only lasting seconds, and not being able to create "dimensions" within the mind), whereas his Amaterasu comes with a slew of secondary techniques (his Enton attacks); but Itachi's eyes were the exact opposite, with an uber-powerful Tsukuyomi (able to create entire realities within the victims mind), and a, I'll say, average Amaterasu. So, between the brothers, one eye is more powerful than the other, and that eye would, for lack of a better description, kick the weaker eye's "ass". Consequently, if Madara/Tobi's eye is the brother to Kakashi's eye, then it isn't that one power negates the other, but rather that one eye is simply more powerful, and if your hypothesis is correct, the stronger eye would be Madara's eye.

btw, how does 486, page 04-05 prove that Madara only has one eye?

Last edited by james0246; 2010-04-22 at 00:57. Reason: brief clarification...
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Old 2010-04-22, 01:15   Link #93
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He has shown this knowledge by somehow dispelling (or at least negating) Amaterasu; explaining the difference between a complete and incomplete Susano’o (as well as mentioning how rare it is for the technique to appear at all)
No mystery on dispelling Amaterasu: he either warped himself or the flame to the other dimension. On Susano'o: perhaps he seen Itachi use it and make quantitative judgment on the difference between that and Sasuke's? Zetsu was there to record the whole fight for Tobi's enjoyment.

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and he has explained several ultimate attacks that the Sharingan posses (Shisui's mind-control, and the recently revealed Izanagi).
Only one Shisui's eyes have mind-control power AND it has to be activated with cooldown. So I'm betting it falls under the Utility MS category. Also, Izanagi is moot in the argument: it works on all sharingan eyes, even non-MS ones. That is why Danzo have a stash of them and is willing to use 10 in a match with a whelp.

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(I should point out now, even if just as a quibble, Sasuke and Itachi's eyes are reversed - their Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi come out of different eyes; I don't know if that necessarily negates your theory (it does, somewhat, for Itachi and Sasuke, but not necessarily for Obito's potential 2nd eye), but it does show that the basic pattern (EoD - left, EoU - right) doesn't carry through from person to person (though there is always a separation (left and right eye each contain one known technique, and both can be used for another technique (and 4 eyes can be used for a 4th technique)).)
Good catch. Kinda missed that minor detail.

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Additionally, since the MS grants one supreme Ninjutsu, and one supreme Genjutsu, Obito’s other eye, wherever it is, should be a genjutsu eye, not a Ninjutsu eye.
That's the case with Sasuke/Itachi, but is that really the case with all MS eyes? Up for debate.

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(Also, I should mention that it is still unknown if Madara is even using his MS when using his technique. It could be possible that his Time/Space thingy is actually simply a Sharingan technique ala Izanagi, and that is why he retains so many Sharingans...)
He used it multiple times in one sitting. Also, his shock when he realize Danzo is using such a forbidden jutsu determines that this is not the case. Further, Youndaime exist in the time before the Uchiha slaughter. Had all high level Uchiha-clan ninjas have this teleport technique, I doubt he'll be known as the Konoha Yellow Flash.

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I should mention that Obito’s main power would be EoD (he was a more reckless combat oriented ninja), not EoU, and if Kamui is an EoD, then it shouldn’t be stoppable by Obito’s EoU (if, as I have said, one eye is always stronger than the other); in other words, if Madara/Tobi has what should be the weaker eye, then he shouldn’t be able to defeat Kakashi’s stronger eye.)
Remember that sharingan is still genetics-related. Also, I doubt "cry baby" Obito is combat orientated. Whether the stronger MS defeats weaker MS holds is hard to tell; there hasn't been a true MS vs MS battle yet.
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Old 2010-04-22, 02:10   Link #94
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Just a few quick points (most of what we are saying is speculation, and I do not dismiss the possibility of your claims, I simply find them somewhat of a stretch...).

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On Susano'o: perhaps he seen Itachi use it and make quantitative judgment on the difference between that and Sasuke's?
No, Madara spoke, with authority, to the Kages (467) detailing the rarity, but non-specificity, of Susano'o. Susano'o is a confirmed technique that a MS-user (at least an Uchiha MS-user) can attain, it is simply rarer than the other known techniques.

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Only one Shisui's eyes have mind-control power AND it has to be activated with cooldown. So I'm betting it falls under the Utility MS category.
1) Shisui's eye was not an MS, his genjutsu ability was a unique Sharingan trait (presently unclear as to why he had the ability)...

2) Since it is a unique ability to a Sharingan (and not a MS), it seems probable that both eyes had the ability.

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That's the case with Sasuke/Itachi, but is that really the case with all MS eyes? Up for debate.
All we have is Sasuke and Itachi (which is a hell of a lot better than back when we only had Itachi and a few data book entries that most did not want to acknowledge ). All theories must stem, in part, from the information we have from Sasuke and Itachi (as well as the data books). In the end, from what we know, one technique is a ninjutsu and the other is a genjutsu, we can't simply start creating theories and ideas based around what we want to be true...

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He used it multiple times in one sitting. Also, his shock when he realize Danzo is using such a forbidden jutsu determines that this is not the case. Further, Youndaime exist in the time before the Uchiha slaughter. Had all high level Uchiha-clan ninjas have this teleport technique, I doubt he'll be known as the Konoha Yellow Flash.
Unless the technique is a unique ability to Madara's eyes only (similar to Shisui's mind control)...

In the end until I actually see the MS used in conjunction with the technique I am not willing to simply accept it as a MS jutsu...
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Old 2010-04-22, 05:18   Link #95
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I actually spoke about this with a friend of mine just recently, following Kabuto's appearance and his little trap card. I'm starting to think it quite likely that Tobi isn't actually Madara, but someone posing as Madara who took the Sharingan and artificially implanted it to his eye-socket (similar to Kakashi). If you think about it, we've never seen Tobi use the Mangekyou Sharingan. Even when he sent Sasuke and others to the alternate dimension, he was not using the MS. Kakashi has a similar technique with the MS, so if that really was an Uchiha, you'd expect the same out of him. However, that isn't actually the case, so there's reason to believe his alternate dimension might just be a technique from an entirely different clan.

Also, Tobi was quite distressed when Kabuto showed him his trap card, so we thought that it could be the body of the real Madara. In a sense, Kabuto is blackmailing Tobi as he knows he isn't who he says he is. Additionally, he's always been aversive to fighting. For someone like Madara, who has the greatest power in the Naruverse in the form of the Eternal MS, you'd expect him to be unafraid of anything, but we never even saw Tobi use any offensive jutsus. All in all, I'm starting to think Tobi isn't Madara, but is rather a hypothetical Mr. X.

Other possibilities for what Kabuto's trap card is are Madara's brother or the original Sage of the six paths, but either choice is unlikely because Madara's brother's body would be quite useless considering he does not have his own eyes anymore, and the Sage of the Six paths would be in a similar position because iirc, his eye powers were lost once he split the chakra of the Jyuubi into nine other Biiju as well as his sons, so he would be useless without those powers compared to the other bodies in Kabuto's collection. The real Madara, on the other hand, would be a different story, and really would put Mr. X in a difficult position.
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Old 2010-04-22, 05:40   Link #96
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the six paths, but either choice is unlikely because Madara's brother's body would be quite useless considering he does not have his own eyes anymore, and the Sage of the Six paths would be in a similar position because iirc, his eye powers were lost once he split the chakra of the Jyuubi into nine other Biiju as well as his sons, so he would be useless without those powers compared to the other bodies in Kabuto's collection. The real Madara, on the other hand, would be a different story, and really would put Mr. X in a difficult position.
not only that.., because if kabuto can summon a Sage of Six Paths.... he wouldnt negotiate with Tobi in the first place.... I mean summoning the six paths??? you already are the most powerful person in the world!!!

Kabuto can just force himself to get sasuke without talking to Tobi
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Old 2010-04-22, 07:13   Link #97
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Kabuto is blackmailing Tobi as he knows he isn't who he says he is. Additionally, he's always been aversive to fighting. For someone like Madara, who has the greatest power in the Naruverse in the form of the Eternal MS, you'd expect him to be unafraid of anything, but we never even saw Tobi use any offensive jutsus.
Madara's current strength is unknown, we've only heard of tales of his awesome days, generations ago. It's natural to be afraid of someone or something that might kill him, like a chakra-sucking bloodline user who Madara was sure to have killed. Also, his justification for immortality was "rare chakras", which can be used up, maybe his chakra pool just doesn't have the capacity for anything besides dimension control these days...
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The problem is if it's not common, but a unique ability, you have to assume Kakashi and Tobi both have theirs from the same source. I haven't really ever read a decent argument to an alternative for this.
No ability is "unique", as you call it....Itachi and Sasuke both have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, each with their own variations. In the same way, Kakashi and Madara can have variations of time/space techniques, without necessarily meaning that the origin of their power is the same.
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Old 2010-04-22, 10:19   Link #98
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I actually spoke about this with a friend of mine just recently, following Kabuto's appearance and his little trap card. I'm starting to think it quite likely that Tobi isn't actually Madara, but someone posing as Madara who took the Sharingan and artificially implanted it to his eye-socket (similar to Kakashi). If you think about it, we've never seen Tobi use the Mangekyou Sharingan. Even when he sent Sasuke and others to the alternate dimension, he was not using the MS. Kakashi has a similar technique with the MS, so if that really was an Uchiha, you'd expect the same out of him. However, that isn't actually the case, so there's reason to believe his alternate dimension might just be a technique from an entirely different clan.
Simply because we haven't seen the actual activation of the MS, doesn't mean it isn't there. Kishimoto has gone out of his way to hide the details of Madara/Tobi's face, so revealing an MS would make such planning a waste of time. It also acts as a nice red herring, since, once again, by not seeing the MS, we cannot say with full certainty that Tobi is Madara (or someone else).

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Also, Tobi was quite distressed when Kabuto showed him his trap card, so we thought that it could be the body of the real Madara. In a sense, Kabuto is blackmailing Tobi as he knows he isn't who he says he is. Additionally, he's always been aversive to fighting. For someone like Madara, who has the greatest power in the Naruverse in the form of the Eternal MS, you'd expect him to be unafraid of anything, but we never even saw Tobi use any offensive jutsus. All in all, I'm starting to think Tobi isn't Madara, but is rather a hypothetical Mr. X.
I never really bought that Madara/Tobi was afraid. Definitely startled, and definitely disturbed, but outright fear? No, Madara/Tobi's words seemed to indicate that while "What's in the Box" was unexpected, it did not stop Madara/Tobi's plan, it would simply require too many resources to adequately dispose of the snakeman, resources he did not want to waste on Kabuto.

That being said, it is unknown if Madara/Tobi still has the EMS...

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Other possibilities for what Kabuto's trap card is are Madara's brother or the original Sage of the six paths, but either choice is unlikely because Madara's brother's body would be quite useless considering he does not have his own eyes anymore, and the Sage of the Six paths would be in a similar position because iirc, his eye powers were lost once he split the chakra of the Jyuubi into nine other Biiju as well as his sons, so he would be useless without those powers compared to the other bodies in Kabuto's collection. The real Madara, on the other hand, would be a different story, and really would put Mr. X in a difficult position.
Izuna is actually a good option. First, he will undoubtedly have his eyes (though, unlike Itachi, Izuna did die without his eyes, but if Deidara can back whole, and Sasori can be a "real boy", then I see no reason why Izuna couldn't come back with his eyes). Secondly, if Madara/Tobi's time/space jutsu were to come from Izuna (either from Izuna's eyes, or as an ability derived from the EMS which could only be created with Izuna's eyes), then Izuna, with his MS, could be the one person that could actually negate Madara/Tobi's time/space jutsu, and consequently the one person Madara/Tobi would not want to presently fight...
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Old 2010-04-22, 15:48   Link #99
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He's got Madara's memories. I'm thinking that he's just a fragment of Madara's soul kind of like how Voldermort in the Harry Potter series split his soul into the Horcruxes.
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Old 2010-04-23, 11:41   Link #100
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Simply because we haven't seen the actual activation of the MS, doesn't mean it isn't there. Kishimoto has gone out of his way to hide the details of Madara/Tobi's face, so revealing an MS would make such planning a waste of time. It also acts as a nice red herring, since, once again, by not seeing the MS, we cannot say with full certainty that Tobi is Madara (or someone else).
You're right to say there's a reason Kishi is hiding Tobi's face. However, if Tobi really is Madara, what's the point of hiding his MS? We already know he has it, so why hide the fact? To imply he'd be a lot more powerful when using it? That would be a bit obvious. Then again, Kishi seems to be the Master of the Obvious these days

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I never really bought that Madara/Tobi was afraid. Definitely startled, and definitely disturbed, but outright fear? No, Madara/Tobi's words seemed to indicate that while "What's in the Box" was unexpected, it did not stop Madara/Tobi's plan, it would simply require too many resources to adequately dispose of the snakeman, resources he did not want to waste on Kabuto.

That being said, it is unknown if Madara/Tobi still has the EMS...
I never said he was afraid. All I'm trying to say is that Tobi is hiding something from the others, and he was distressed (not afraid) that there is someone who knows his secret, which is whatever's inside that extra grave of his. I doubt he would be afraid of Kabuto.

Idk how that proves it is unknown that Madara has the EMS

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Izuna is actually a good option. First, he will undoubtedly have his eyes (though, unlike Itachi, Izuna did die without his eyes, but if Deidara can back whole, and Sasori can be a "real boy", then I see no reason why Izuna couldn't come back with his eyes). Secondly, if Madara/Tobi's time/space jutsu were to come from Izuna (either from Izuna's eyes, or as an ability derived from the EMS which could only be created with Izuna's eyes), then Izuna, with his MS, could be the one person that could actually negate Madara/Tobi's time/space jutsu, and consequently the one person Madara/Tobi would not want to presently fight...
I can't really argue with this, I suppose. But like I said, this is only true if Tobi is Madara. Like I said, we don't know for sure if he is, and there's no point in hiding Tobi's MS considering we already know he has it, and there's not been any hint that Madara can't use it anymore. I don't think it's a matter of Kabuto having posession of a body that can defeat Madara, but a deeper, darker secret.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperjake View Post
He's got Madara's memories. I'm thinking that he's just a fragment of Madara's soul kind of like how Voldermort in the Harry Potter series split his soul into the Horcruxes.
Are you sure those are memories? Tobi's good at telling stories, but that doesn't mean they come from memories. He could be acting for all we know.
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