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Old 2003-12-02, 18:16   Link #1
PocariSweat
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: あんたの頭の中
Fansubs in danger?

Once upon a time, fansubs were mostly done via VHS tape - this kept the visibility low and pretty much assured the fansubs were only available on a somewhat local level. Everyone played fairly nice since the US studios realized they help boost sales.

As people here know, the combo of digi-subs and BT has changed everything. It's now very, very easy for anyone to get fansubs and it has both increased their visibility tremendously, and moved it from a local to a global phenomena. The quality and supply has never been higher.

Mostly this if a *good* thing, but on the down side you now have people downloading these shows even within Japan itself. Sooner or later I know it will become hard for the US and Japanese studios to just ignore it.

Recently there's some signs the Japanese studios may be taking a more active approach. Winny - a popular Japanese filesharing network - has been shut down. This alone will make it much harder for many groups to get raws. I expect we'll see a real slowdown of new episodes in the next few weeks. Even more worryingly, it seems studios may be contacting the subbers themselves. It's hard to say if this marks a real change in attitude yet, but as things stand now it may be inevitable.

Now on to my point - what can we do? First, I think groups should set up a *private* raw distribution method that only fansub groups could access. Could just be an FTP site or something like that. This would make it easier for legitimate groups to share resources and keep the raw supply alive while making it harder for raws to be used by people in Japan as a DVD substitute. I know it would take a lot of logistics and cooperations to make work though.

Second - and I know this would be the most controversial - we may need to block Japanese IP address ranges on the trackers and on sites like AnimeSuke. Why? Well, because first of all it's not all that hard to do, and more to the point it would make fansubs less visible and easy to get in Japan itself. That alone might be enough to ease the fears many Japanese studios may be having about fansubs becoming a alternative to their own distributions. Yes, there will always be other ways to get the stuff, but it takes a certain level of ease and visibility before the studios will really be bothered. Really, it's not too different from the policy many of these sites already have about not distributing licensed stuff - after all, it's *all* licensed in Japan.

I do know that that this may impact a few non-Japanese people living within Japan, but unfortunately that probably is a unavoidable cost. Still, I think it's better than having the whole of the digisub movement shut down or changed into something more and more like a "warez" scene.

Well, anyway - that's my rant. I know it's probably pie-in-the-sky so Flame away
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:28   Link #2
maxthelostboy
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umm they really can bann all japan ip's? No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example. also the recent munto people telling the fan sub group to take it down was because it is licensed and the group didnt know that. and i highly doubt old old animes like rose of versallies seem to be bothering any1.
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:34   Link #3
sonar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxthelostboy
umm they really can bann all japan ip's? No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example. also the recent munto people telling the fan sub group to take it down was because it is licensed and the group didnt know that. and i highly doubt old old animes like rose of versallies seem to be bothering any1.
Yeah, you can ban a country's ip range, on Winny if i remember right, there was a small movement of people banning anyone not from Japan =P.
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:45   Link #4
lordwu
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Winny is not exactly shutdown. There are just fewer peers on the network now. There were 2 arrests but I believe none of them were arrested because of distributing anime. I believe one was distributing hollywood movies and the other one was sharing GBA roms.

It would have certain impact on distributing TV captures on winny. However, even with RIAA actively charging people on sharing mp3 on Kazaa, it didn't stop people from using other p2p networks right?
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:51   Link #5
PocariSweat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxthelostboy
No matter how much you try there will always be piraters of licensed anime, napster went down then kazza took it's place. nice example.
The goal isn't to ban it completely - just to make the most visible sources of fansubs not part of the problem. Look at it this way: there will always be someplace you download licensed anime, but that doen't mean AnimeSuki should help out by listing it.

JPNIC controls the entire Japanese IP range...

http://www.nic.ad.jp/en/ip/intro.html

All you'd need to do is block the ranges assigned to them.

As for older unlicensed series it's true they may not care so much, but a good 90% of the stuff being fansubbed seems pretty new.
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:57   Link #6
NoSanninWa
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Honestly it sounds like a good idea to me. That way they aren't going to have to worry about our fansubbing cutting into japanese DVD sales. This might actually be a real issue if soft-subbing with Matroska or Ogg Vorbis becomes popular.

On the other hand, there are english speaking people living in Japan that download fansubs because their Japanese still needs work and it helps them to learn it. This would seriously hurt them!
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Old 2003-12-02, 18:58   Link #7
PocariSweat
ポカリが?どんな動物ですか?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordwu
Winny is not exactly shutdown. There are just fewer peers on the network now. There were 2 arrests but I believe none of them were arrested because of distributing anime. I believe one was distributing hollywood movies and the other one was sharing GBA roms.
My understanding is the site itself is gone, but since it's non-centralized there's no way to shut everyone off. Still as node lists become stale and the program isn't updated it'll be harder to keep going. I'm sure raws are still available other places, but they'll be harder to get.
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Old 2003-12-02, 19:37   Link #8
maxthelostboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
On the other hand, there are english speaking people living in Japan that download fansubs because their Japanese still needs work and it helps them to learn it. This would seriously hurt them!
Well dont most dvds come with english subtitles for them to use? why dont they just go buy a book or something, get a teacher, or try talking to real people but good comment

We should ban all japanise ips
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Old 2003-12-02, 19:50   Link #9
Shii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxthelostboy
Well dont most dvds come with english subtitles for them to use?
No, of course not. Then there would be a proliferation of Japanese DVD rips and DVD ripping groups.
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Old 2003-12-02, 19:53   Link #10
maxthelostboy
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my mistake sorry:/ well anyhow doesnt animesuki not support downloading anime thats licensed in your country? So japan shouldnt be able to get them then on account of all shows being licensed there like said before.
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Old 2003-12-02, 19:57   Link #11
lordwu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PocariSweat
My understanding is the site itself is gone, but since it's non-centralized there's no way to shut everyone off. Still as node lists become stale and the program isn't updated it'll be harder to keep going. I'm sure raws are still available other places, but they'll be harder to get.
I thought the nodelist is generated automatically. As long as you can find an entry node to the network, you are on. You only see a few nodes you connect to and a few nodes connect to you anyways. The nodelist really means nothing other than helping you to find that entry node.

I believe eventually some other p2p programs will be developed to replace winny, just like winny replaced winmx (to some extent). As for no version update, winmx has not been updated for a long time, and yet it's still a very active p2p network.
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Old 2003-12-02, 20:01   Link #12
lordwu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxthelostboy
my mistake sorry:/ well anyhow doesnt animesuki not support downloading anime thats licensed in your country? So japan shouldnt be able to get them then on account of all shows being licensed there like said before.
Fansub itself is illegal, period. It's just the matter if the japanese companies want to persue and stop the distribution. Personally I don't see why we need to worry about japanese downloading fansubs. There are plenty of ways for them to get TV rips other than winny. You won't go to japanese site to download Star Trek episodes, will you?
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Old 2003-12-02, 20:23   Link #13
PocariSweat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordwu
I thought the nodelist is generated automatically. As long as you can find an entry node to the network, you are on. You only see a few nodes you connect to and a few nodes connect to you anyways. The nodelist really means nothing other than helping you to find that entry node.
Yes. I think it's like gutella in that way. I'd expect the entry nodes will likely become harder to find over time. Of course I guess someone else could always start up a new list of them.

I'm not sure about the protocol Winny used, but gnutella when it couldn't contact a node list server used to maintain an internal list of the last IPs you connected to - problem was if you hadn't connected in a while, they all might be dead. It also tends to fragment the network into isolated segments making it harder to use. On the other hand e-donkey/e-mule and DirectConnect have "hubs" which are napster-like central servers - the only difference is anyone can run a hub so it's harder to shut them all down.

WinMX is still around and supported. Releases aren't frequent, but I don't think it's been abandoned (the site's still up at least). Plus I remember they usually had newer beta versions not mentioned on the front page. I used it to access some of the open-nap anime servers more than for it's own network, but it always seemed a bit quirky.

I'm sure people will go back to using other P2P programs, but Winny did kind of focus all the Japanese stuff together into one place.
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Old 2003-12-02, 20:40   Link #14
NenMaster
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i say in a couple years we will have problems, but i think new stuff will be out etc, just think 200mb files with 10mb line, its nothing much is it

i think the average connection (adsl, cable) will be 10mbit + in a couple of years
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Old 2003-12-02, 20:41   Link #15
maxthelostboy
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why dont they just use kazza like millions of other people?
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Old 2003-12-02, 20:53   Link #16
Shii
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2channelers on Kazaa... that's a good one!

1. How would they know how to use it, considering it's all in English? 2channelers only use WinMX because there's a Japanese hack for it.
2. Why the hell is Kazaa any good? There's no hash checking, no security, no protocol, usually your downloads fail or are corrupt, most everyone there is from the United States...
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Old 2003-12-02, 21:04   Link #17
outlaw55
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The ones arrested were pirating GBA roms, and a AMERCIAN movie. One thing is for sure, if you pirate an american movie, no matter where you live, your ass is arrested. American companies = SUPER STRICT when it comes to copyright issues. The only thing close to a japanese company contacting the fansubers was with this one show (i don't know the name) but they were working out a deal with CPM, so I understand that (CPM may have asked them to as well, certain ppl working for CPM (i think the founder, not 100% sure tho) used to fansubs, so they may not want to take action against it being they used to, LOL!!)
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Old 2003-12-02, 21:17   Link #18
kuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Honestly it sounds like a good idea to me. That way they aren't going to have to worry about our fansubbing cutting into japanese DVD sales.
Where did you get the idea they worry about fansubbing hurting japanese DVD sales ? They worry about fansubbing hurting american anime DVDs sales (as they got money from selling series to american companies). Japanese people don't download fansubs. They download copies of raw anime, as they aren't interesting in english subs. Fansubbers get raws because the japanese exchange raws between themselves.
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Old 2003-12-02, 21:29   Link #19
a_nevels666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw55
One thing is for sure, if you pirate an american movie, no matter where you live, your ass is arrested.
Yes, if by arrested you mean 'have a small chance of receiving a e-mail telling you to stop'.
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Old 2003-12-02, 21:37   Link #20
PocariSweat
ポカリが?どんな動物ですか?
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
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I hope you're right - it would be good if fansubs aren't the focus yet. Still, I wouldn't just count on it staying that way forever. I've seen it too many times before - when something like this moves from just being a small group of enthusiasts to wide-scale popularity things change. Companies willing to look the other way before suddenly see the numbers of people involved and think "that's money we're losing".

Take a look at Emulation for example. Originally sites hosting old Genesis, NES, SNES, and TG16 roms were never bothered by the copyright owners. After all these games were no longer being sold so had far less of a market impact then Anime. For several years they ran as free and clear as AnimeSuki does now, and like fansubs, as the word spread and quality improved, it began to really get popular. Instead of just enthusiasts as much interested in the process as just playing games, the sites were flooded more and more by kiddies just wanting free stuff. So much so that at first rom sites were shut down because of excessive traffic rather than copyright issues. Eventually though the companies DID take notice - popular sites were taken down and ROMs became ROMZ.

I really don't want to see the same thing happen to fansubs, but saying "it'll never happen to us" won't make it true. Their are things we can do, and I think it would be better for people to start thinking about it at least.
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