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Old 2010-04-23, 15:18   Link #8801
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
I seriously doubt that the burned corpse in Ep 4 could be Kanon's. Kanon is much smaller than Battler.

In Episode 4, Battler doesn't explicitly state he pulled the body out of the furnace, but he did examine it closely enough to determine that it had six toes on each foot.

I have trouble imagining Battler examining Kanon's corpse and failing to identify it by size alone.
Battler has also been taking steroids, and Kinzo is an old man. Battler hasn't seen Kinzo in six years, but does know that he has polydactyly. He also thinks that Kanon doesn't have polydactyly and was murdered in the well. So it's entirely reasonable that he'd ID the body on that basis alone. Note that besides the polydactyly, the burnt corpse has no other distinguishing features, to the extent that even gender can't be determined.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:19   Link #8802
Oliver
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Well, that's the main problem with chessboard thinking. It assumes your opponent is actually a good chess player.
Not quite. What it really assumes is that your opponent considers your thought processes and actually cares what you think, with the intent to mislead you into making mistakes. So you pile up your knowledge about what the opponent's intent might be, and try to see if the intent seen matches what you think it should be.

In a chess game, that is the mark of a good chess player, because chess is a full information game with two sides that have absolutely equal forces. It has not yet been conclusively mathematically proven for a complete chess game that if both opponents play perfectly, the inevitable end result is a draw, but it does look like this is what it is. So misleading your opponent into making a mistake and exploiting it is essentially the only way to win, and not doing that is a mistake.

But if you possess an overwhelming advantage, caring what your opponent thinks is often not required.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:20   Link #8803
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Note that other than the polydactyly, the burnt corpse has no other distinguishing features, to the extent that even gender can't be determined.
That's actually kind of interesting considering in episode 1 Nanjo gets to see the corpse right? I don't think he checked it, but if he's a doctor he'd know enough about anatomy to know at least that much.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:26   Link #8804
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That's actually kind of interesting considering in episode 1 Nanjo gets to see the corpse right? I don't think he checked it, but if he's a doctor he'd know enough about anatomy to know at least that much.
Actually, by this moment I'm not sure that Ryukishi knows enough about anatomy himself to write Nanjo's medical knowledge in a convincing manner. That's why he comes out so ridiculous.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:30   Link #8805
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, by this moment I'm not sure that Ryukishi knows enough about anatomy himself to write Nanjo's medical knowledge in a convincing manner. That's why he comes out so ridiculous.
Gah... it's so disappointing when my little brother knows more about doctors from a high school anatomy class than the author of a mystery book does. Doctors have lots of cool ways to kill people.

An example: If you actually broke your nose bone instead of just the cartilage there is a very high chance the bone would pierce your brain and you'd die. You'd have to hit below the nose at just the right angle for that to work though.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:33   Link #8806
SeagullCrazy
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This chessboard thinking stuff gives me a random idea.

If a good chess player is required to to turn the chessboard over, then that means if a person is a good chess player, you can read their moves using chessboard thinking.

We know from EP1 and EP2 that Kinzo, Nanjo, and Genji are all good chess players.
Is there anyone else?
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:35   Link #8807
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
This chessboard thinking stuff gives me a random idea.

If a good chess player is required to to turn the chessboard over, then that means if a person is a good chess player, you can read their moves using chessboard thinking.

We know from EP1 and EP2 that Kinzo, Nanjo, and Genji are all good chess players.
Is there anyone else?
Episode 2: Supposedly George won against Genji in a game of chess, but George claims Genji let him win.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:36   Link #8808
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I won't beleive in Shkanon until there is a red saying they are the same person.
I don't think that would be enough. I mean at this point would you really have some qualms getting around a red statement with some sort of twisted logic?

Quote:
Note that other than the polydactyly, the burnt corpse has no other distinguishing features, to the extent that even gender can't be determined.
Hey slow down here. You can understand the sex of a skeleton if you are attentive enough.

Now this issue only depends on Kinzo's height. If he's a tall man then there's no way they would mistake Kanon for him, unless they are really hopeless observers.

But I wonder why you need to press on this point. You don't need to say Kanon is actually the burnt body, especially considering that in EP1 Battler sees both of them at the same time.
this point is extremely moot, and you are also jeopardizing one of your strongest point against the shkanon theory (EP3 twilight) with this. I wouldn't insist too much on this if I were you.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:37   Link #8809
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
We know from EP1 and EP2 that Kinzo, Nanjo, and Genji are all good chess players.
Is there anyone else?
Nobody else is seen to actually play chess on screen except Piece-Beatrice. Kyrie, the one who proposed the term in the first place, also might be one.

Other than those people, nope.

In the meta/magic scenes, Virgilia, Ronove, the stakes and amusingly, Rudolf, are seen using chess terms to describe what's going on.

EDIT: Oh yes, I forgot George.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-23 at 15:38. Reason: oops
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:39   Link #8810
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think that would be enough. I mean at this point would you really have some qualms getting around a red statement with some sort of twisted logic?
If those exact words were said in red I wouldn't have any twisted logic left. I'd accept it if it was said that way. If it's possible that they can say Kanon and Battler are not the same person than the premise of two people being the same person exists in Umineko.

But until then no
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:41   Link #8811
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post

In the meta/magic scenes, Virgilia, Ronove, the stakes and amusingly, Rudolf, are seen using chess terms to describe what's going on.

EDIT: Oh yes, I forgot George.
Oh, look, it's Rudolf and George again.

Anyway, I don't think there are too many good chess players, so those are probably the only ones we can use chessboard thinking against. Any thoughts?
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:41   Link #8812
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Gah... it's so disappointing when my little brother knows more about doctors from a high school anatomy class than the author of a mystery book does.
Another hallmark of being a good author is either knowing everything or having the patience and dedication to actually do your research.

For a mystery author, I feel that the important things to know are a) basic anatomy and b) up-to-date, accurate psychology, not the pop psych shit Hollywood rehashes every year.

I really didn't mean to insult Ryukishi this much, but it's clear that the only things he has a really extensive knowledge of are a) mysteries, and b) typical otaku pastimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Oh, look, it's Rudolf and George again.
If these two aren't important in some way after all that buildup, and Ep7 is just Shkanon love-love time again, I'm going to fly over to Japan and smack Ryukishi one.

God, I need to stop taking the piss out of this man...
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:44   Link #8813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think Shannon is an inch taller than Kanon in the anime. Should that be proof they can't share the same corpse?
It was Kanon who was taller in the anime, probably because of the premise that boys must be taller... He seems to keep growing through the series and hovers over Beato in EP3
So I wouldn't take the anime for granted.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:50   Link #8814
Jan-Poo
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Anyway, I don't think there are too many good chess players, so those are probably the only ones we can use chessboard thinking against. Any thoughts?
I'm not that good... my ELO is around 1000... I can do fairly well in the opening and the mid game but I keep failing badly once I get to the endgame...
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:53   Link #8815
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hey slow down here. You can understand the sex of a skeleton if you are attentive enough.
I was quoting EP1, actually. The narration outright says that the gender can't be determined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But I wonder why you need to press on this point. You don't need to say Kanon is actually the burnt body, especially considering that in EP1 Battler sees both of them at the same time.
this point is extremely moot, and you are also jeopardizing one of your strongest point against the shkanon theory (EP3 twilight) with this. I wouldn't insist too much on this if I were you.
I never claimed that the burnt corpse was Kanon in EP1 or EP3, only in EP4. For it to be Kanon in EP3 is impossible since the burnt corpse was discovered before Kanon's was.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:54   Link #8816
Oliver
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Anyway, I don't think there are too many good chess players, so those are probably the only ones we can use chessboard thinking against. Any thoughts?
All of them are problematic in this regard.
  • Kinzo is most likely irrevocably dead. Whatever plans he made need to be executed by someone else and cannot predict the randomly changing events.
  • Genji is such a complete enigma that he's pretty much a non-character. Unless you consider Ronove to be saying the things Genji should be saying but isn't, there's pretty much no action Genji is seen taking of his own initiative.
  • Nanjo is less of an enigma, but he is seen actually doing and saying so little that he could well be replaced by a medical tricorder.
  • Rudolf is almost always out of the game as early as possible.
  • Piece-Beatrice's existence is questionable at best.

Basically, the only one left is George, who's pattern of action is unusually straightforward... as if he doesn't care what anyone else thinks, he is always shown to be ready for a frontal confrontation, not announcing his opposition to the family over Shannon, nor actually hiding it.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:55   Link #8817
Jan-Poo
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And what good brings to your point the option that in a single episode Kinzo's corpse is actually Kanon's corpse?
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:58   Link #8818
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And what good brings to your point the option that in a single episode Kinzo's corpse is actually Kanon's corpse?
Because it explains why Kanon disappeared in that episode and also demonstrates that he has polydactyly, which gives Kinzo a reason to specifically adopt him and possibly choose him as an heir. Furthermore, it evades the problem that no motive has ever been established for burning the older Kinzo's corpse in that episode.
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Old 2010-04-23, 15:59   Link #8819
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And what good brings to your point the option that in a single episode Kinzo's corpse is actually Kanon's corpse?
Beatrice is a troll that likes to make Battler stop thinking.
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Old 2010-04-23, 16:00   Link #8820
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver
Genji is such a complete enigma that he's pretty much a non-character. Unless you consider Ronove to be saying the things Genji should be saying but isn't, there's pretty much no action Genji is seen taking of his own initiative.
Nanjo is less of an enigma, but he is seen actually doing and saying so little that he could well be replaced by a medical tricorder.
If Genji = Ronove and Nanjo = Gaap, then you can see some action being taken.
Otherwise they do absolutely nothing, which would be really hard for them to do considering how suspicious they are.
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