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Old 2010-04-23, 20:43   Link #8921
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The key is "how Battler escaped the room," not "how Kanon vanished." Kanon's disappearance is a sideshow to how he got out of cousins' room in the first place (Shkannon or Kanonzo). At least, that's how I see it. And I think it's more of a key to people's behavior than to any of the locked rooms.
Yes, but consider how at the beginning of episode 6 (and throughout) we were shown scenes where Battler was trapped inside guest room and couldn't escape. It makes sense if those scenes actually happened after the logic error and we just weren't shown everything chronologically. However...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
Unlike the previous Episodes, this game won't just progress chronologically starting at October 4, 1986 around 10:00 AM, and partly because of this, it looks like it's shaping up to have a very different feel to it than the rest of "Umineko" so far.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:45   Link #8922
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Yes, but consider how at the beginning of episode 6 (and throughout) we were shown scenes where Battler was trapped inside guest room and couldn't escape. It makes sense if those scenes actually happened after the logic error and we just weren't shown everything chronologically. However...

It makes sense to me wanna know why?
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:47   Link #8923
Ssol
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Because episode 6 was a story written by an author who knew everything that was going to happen in advance?
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:50   Link #8924
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Because episode 6 was a story written by an author who knew everything that was going to happen in advance?
Nope. I'm betting the closet has a chain lock on the outside. It's such a terrifying punishment to be trapped in that closet. The Umineko characters have such scary parents.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:52   Link #8925
Ssol
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Unfortunately:

この部屋は内側から作られた密室です。窓の封印は健在ですので、窓からの脱出はありません。バスルームから の脱出方法ももちろんない。……はっきり断言しましょう。この扉以外に、脱出口はありません。しかしこの扉 にはチェーンロックが掛かっています。外すも掛け直すも自由ですが、それは内側からしか出来ません。そして 、扉から出ることさえ自由ですが、チェーンロックが掛かっていない状態での退出は、脱出とはな りえません。
Erika: This room is a closed room created from the inside. The window seals are intact, so escaping through the window is impossible. Of course, there’s no way to escape from the bathroom either. …I’ll say it clearly. There is no exit you can escape from other than this door. But this door’s chain lock is set. You’re free to unset or reset it, but you can only do so from inside. And you’re even free to go out the door, but that doesn’t count as an escape unless the chain is set.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:54   Link #8926
Judoh
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I'm actually explaining their childhood fear of chain locks and closets not the closed room.
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Old 2010-04-23, 20:58   Link #8927
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm actually explaining their childhood fear of chain locks and closets not the closed room.
Well, I agree with you that they have scary parents for sure.

I bet Battler got his love for reading mystery novels from one of his parents. Ah, I wonder which one of his parents loved mystery novels.
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:26   Link #8928
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Hard question to answer, considering we don't know who is his mother ^^
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:37   Link #8929
Ssol
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Even if Battler found out who his real mother was he still would view the one who raised him as his mother. I would be really surprised if we never found out who his real mother was or if it ended up being some unknown woman.

We know we're going to get a big reveal on who Kanon and Shannon were referring to as father but wouldn't their mother be important as well?
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:38   Link #8930
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Even if Battler found out who his real mother was he still would view the one who raised him as his mother. I would be really surprised if we never found out who his real mother was or if it ended up being some unknown woman.

We know we're going to get a big reveal on who Kanon and Shannon were referring to as father but wouldn't their mother be important as well?
I'm hoping the Father is a priest from the Fukuin house. New character FTW.
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:40   Link #8931
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Hard question to answer, considering we don't know who is his mother ^^
Actually, considering all the other Norse references, and him actually gaining a mystic understanding by literally hanging off a sword -- the only thing missing is the World Tree -- why can't he, like Heimdall, have more than one mother?
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:49   Link #8932
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, considering all the other Norse references, and him actually gaining a mystic understanding by literally hanging off a sword -- the only thing missing is the World Tree -- why can't he, like Heimdall, have more than one mother?
Woah really? There's that many Norse references?
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Old 2010-04-23, 21:58   Link #8933
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Woah really? There's that many Norse references?
Well, not that many, but the one Battler has marked on him is so blatant and important for the Norse mythology that it can't be missed.

During her introductory battle with Beatrice, pretty much everything Virgilia summons except the Tower of Babel is a Norse mythology reference, starting with sons of Ivaldi and all the way to the end. It's also marked with chess terms denoting what it is. Interestingly, I could not find a mythical source for anything Beatrice summoned in this battle, at all. It has a very vaguely Greek feel to it but that's it. Virgilia drops names in a similar fashion a few more times later.

The really major one is that Odin, the head of the Norse pantheon, gained a mystic understanding of magic and the runes by hanging dead off the world tree Yggdrasil, pierced by his own spear Gungnir, for seven days. He got better.

Now, in Ep3, Beatrice hangs a bit herself in same battle pierced by, well, Gungnir. She quickly rewinds the scene before she can gain any mystic understanding, though. In Ep5, Battler gains his The Answer in this exact manner, though for lack of a spear it's a sword.

The one thing conspicuously missing is the World Tree. And Heimdall, another major character, did have nine mothers simultaneously.

EDIT: Well, correction, there's that Aegis Shield, but in Greek mythology that is a rather vague and generic term, not really a specific magic item. Certainly not the uber-shield-to-end-all-shields Beatrice thinks it is.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-04-23 at 22:13.
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Old 2010-04-23, 22:16   Link #8934
Judoh
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I think dragon Kinzo in episode 4 might have been a reference Nidhoggr who gnaws at the roots of Yyggdrasill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%AD%C3%B0h%C3%B6ggr
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Old 2010-04-23, 22:27   Link #8935
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I think dragon Kinzo in episode 4 might have been a reference Nidhoggr who gnaws at the roots of Yyggdrasill
If he is, he has to be Fafnir, because of all the cursed gold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1fnir
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Old 2010-04-23, 22:52   Link #8936
J the Drafter
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not quite. What it really assumes is that your opponent considers your thought processes and actually cares what you think, with the intent to mislead you into making mistakes. So you pile up your knowledge about what the opponent's intent might be, and try to see if the intent seen matches what you think it should be.

In a chess game, that is the mark of a good chess player, because chess is a full information game with two sides that have absolutely equal forces. It has not yet been conclusively mathematically proven for a complete chess game that if both opponents play perfectly, the inevitable end result is a draw, but it does look like this is what it is. So misleading your opponent into making a mistake and exploiting it is essentially the only way to win, and not doing that is a mistake.

But if you possess an overwhelming advantage, caring what your opponent thinks is often not required.
Erm...good chess players form plans on attacking and defending based on the layout of the various pieces. You don't wait for your opponent to make a mistake, you create advantages for yourself by exploiting possibilities.
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Old 2010-04-23, 23:06   Link #8937
Oliver
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Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
Erm...good chess players form plans on attacking and defending based on the layout of the various pieces. You don't wait for your opponent to make a mistake, you create advantages for yourself by exploiting possibilities.
Plans - yes. But what you just said is structurally equivalent, because 'exploiting a possibility' can only happen if the opponent made a mistake - otherwise, no matter the plans, there's no possibility. Your forces are equal, your information is also equal, and all that remains is the infinite planning tree 'I know that you know that I know that you know...' and intuition to prune the branches.
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Old 2010-04-24, 00:16   Link #8938
Marion
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Even if Battler found out who his real mother was he still would view the one who raised him as his mother. I would be really surprised if we never found out who his real mother was or if it ended up being some unknown woman.

We know we're going to get a big reveal on who Kanon and Shannon were referring to as father but wouldn't their mother be important as well?
Honestly, I don't think it needs to be revealed in text. Whether it be said in red or even by Rudolf. I mean because seriously can we just not conclude the most logical answer -- there are so many hints that Kyrie is his mother that it isn't funny. In EP 6 she even says her and Asumu were in the exact same hospital when delivering, IIRC.

As for Shannon and Kanon's 'father' I'm pretty sure they were referring to Kinzo, since he's the one who 'created' them as furniture in a way. If that's the case I don't think the mother is important, since they were supposedly orphans and all.

Although I dearly hope that if Kinzo is the 'father' then its only in a non-biological way. I seriously don't want to be told that Shkannon is true AND they're related to the two people they have been paired up with romantically since EP 1
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Old 2010-04-24, 00:55   Link #8939
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
As for Shannon and Kanon's 'father' I'm pretty sure they were referring to Kinzo, since he's the one who 'created' them as furniture in a way. If that's the case I don't think the mother is important, since they were supposedly orphans and all.

Although I dearly hope that if Kinzo is the 'father' then its only in a non-biological way. I seriously don't want to be told that Shkannon is true AND they're related to the two people they have been paired up with romantically since EP 1
Actually, I thought their father was Battler for some reason. In much the same way that Moetrice kept calling him 'Father,' much to his discomfort. 8)

Logically speaking, I'd have to think it was Kinzo but it felt like who they meant as 'Father' is really the person that either gave them reason to live or 'caused' them to come into being.

So it made sense why Moetrice called Battler 'Father,' both in the idea that she was born in EP6 and the original Beatrice was also born because of Battler. So I thought maybe Shannon and Kanon too.

EDIT: Oh, not only that but their references about the Master of the Island being 19 years old, I thought that too was Battler. And so maybe Kanon coming to rescue Battler is something that can only happen for him. And no one else.

EDIT #2: Since everything else seems to be about Battler. The murders, the sin, why everyone dies... geez.
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Old 2010-04-24, 01:13   Link #8940
Realus
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Question about the Shkannon theory;

Are the most common (or most convincing) [Or actually, Chronotrig's] theorems with this involving the fact that there's no such person called Kanon? (Or Yoshiya)
Such as, ever since he first appeared to work on the island, he has been actually Sayo playing her part as "Kanon".

If so, how is it explained when Kanon and Shannon both have to be on the island for work at the same time?
I was re-reading Episode 2's beginning to see how Shkannon fit together perfectly...

When Kanon is comforting Shannon and cursing Runon and Natsuhi in the beginning, Shannon mentions how Kanon shouldn't skip out on his work, or he'll get in trouble too.

1) If Shannon and Kanon are in fact there on that day together, I wouldn't be surprised if they were together on other days as well. (Hence Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo [When alive], Natsuhi, Krauss, Jessica, and possibly Nanjo all had opportunities to see them together.)
I don't know how often Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi/Krauss would assign Shannon and Kanon to be on duty together at the same time. But I'm sure it's enough that at least some of them should already know they are 2 people.

2) If on that day, Shannon and Kanon aren't both on duty together, what's happening?
- Magic Scene, null most facts
- Shannon is pretending her Kanon personality is there for some reason, and has work to do himself? I'm assuming her turning down Kanon's help is a personification of some feeling? What would it be?
- Kanon is real, but died some time (Presumably, in Jessica's room). So for the Oct 4th, Shannon for whatever reason helps keep Kanon's image alive?
- ??? (Other, something I'm not thinking of)

-------

Rereading the intro, I'm believing in Shannontrice already. And it makes things come into a new light thinking of how scenes could be shown to represent this.

But I can see how most Beato/Shannon/Kanon scenes can be interpreted as Beato/Shannon/Kanon, Shannontrice/Kanon, or Shkannontrice.

PS: Did anyone ever do a rough translation of the EP6 section where it seems to be hinting at Battler's Sin?
I only had an ATLAS machine translation, I'd hope to get a better one so I can understand this section better.
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