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Old 2010-04-24, 17:01   Link #8981
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Or moved, then killed and then locked into the shed? What was the idea about the two locks? I thought there was just one padlock..
The padlock was something extra they put on because it looked like the other lock didn't stop anyone from getting inside the shed. So Genji put an extra padlock on. That means there are two types of locks keeping the shed closed. A padlock and something else.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:07   Link #8982
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
The padlock was something extra they put on because it looked like the other lock didn't stop anyone from getting inside the shed. So Genji put an extra padlock on. That means there are two types of locks keeping the shed closed. A padlock and something else.
Ohhh.. right. I'm not entirely sure that Shannon has to escape and be doing all the successive murders though. Either she has no effect or maybe she wasn't in there to begin with...

And if they're really all dead by then then the second padlock is no problem.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I bet in EP5 when the bodies disappeared, they were moved to the shed. 8)
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:09   Link #8983
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EDIT: Oh, by the way, I bet in EP5 when the bodies disappeared, they were moved to the shed. 8)
They were never moved in episode 5 remember? There are a bunch of reds about that.

EDIT: you must have missed these reds.

After George's death, his corpse was never moved!
After Jessica's death, her corpse was never moved!
After Maria's death, her corpse was never moved!
After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!
After Genji's death, his corpse was never moved!
After Krauss's death, his corpse was never moved!


If they all faked their deaths though they can walk out of whatever room they were in on their own and die anywhere else later.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-24 at 17:20.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:19   Link #8984
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They were never moved in episode 5 remember? There are a bunch of reds about that.
Oh, I mean they moved themselves, supposedly. I'm not sure whether the body moving event is someone else doing it or part of the faking plan. i.e., "After you wake up, at X o'clock, meet up here." I think the best explanation is that the fakers move themselves.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:22   Link #8985
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Oh, I mean they moved themselves, supposedly. I'm not sure whether the body moving event is someone else doing it or part of the faking plan. i.e., "After you wake up, at X o'clock, meet up here." I think the best explanation is that the fakers move themselves.
That's not moving anything though. If the fakers moved themselves than That's just walking out of a room you were supposedly dead in. That also can't happen in a lot of episodes. Particularly 2 and 3.

I also don't think any bodies are ever found in more than one place. So moving a body somewhere else doesn't really serve any purpose. Unless it's Kanon or Kinzo.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:29   Link #8986
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That's not moving anything though. If the fakers moved themselves than That's just walking out of a room you were supposedly dead in. That also can't happen in a lot of episodes. Particularly 2 and 3.
Well, it's technically moving your own body. 8) Anyways, even though I say 'body move event' I'm just using that as a title to refer to the event.

Ok, so for EP2 and 3, the killing took place before the body move event, if in every episode it's the fakers who move their own bodies. If there is actually someone else moving the bodies though, then for some reason that did not occur.

I tend to stick with the idea that the killing prevents the body move event because no one is moving the bodies around, the fakers are moving themselves afterwards. Even though the blood can be washed away in the rain, it's still a lot of mess to move them around in the house.

If this is true then the killing either happens in the rooms themselves or the killing happens where the fakers may have been told to meet up. Also, if this is true then in EP5 and 6, the killer could not reach the targets for some reason until after they were discovered. And that the time the fakers wake up may vary.


I wonder if we can use this to pin down someone... hm...
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:43   Link #8987
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Why move any of the bodies though? What reason do they have? And what reason do you have to think about it? There aren't any instances I remember where somebody was found dead in one room and then found again in another room. So there shouldn't be any reason to think any of the corpses have been moved before. And to be frank dragging six bodies into another room is rather tough for one person.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:56   Link #8988
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Yah, which is why I lean more towards the fakers getting up and meeting some place else.

If it has to be moved then there are very few people who can do something like that. Gouda, Eva, Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, maybe Jessica. And it would take a long time, leave bloody trails all over the house which would require cleanup, as well as bloody garments.
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Old 2010-04-24, 17:59   Link #8989
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There are certain cases when gravity can do much of the moving, though, but these are rare.
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Old 2010-04-24, 18:02   Link #8990
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In other words, without love, it cannot be seen. You've spent this long on the series, so why not spend a little more? See if you can find evidence supporting Shkanon, instead of trying to build an argument against it. Just think of it as a mind game. If you still can't support Shkanon after doing that, then you have good reason to be disappointed with the series. But give it some time.
You have no right to use that line. You don't even know what it means. I don't even know what it means. I'm not sure ryukishi knows what it means. But when you use it, it sounds an awful lot like "sit down, shut up, and accept it."

Which is what Beatrice always wanted. Are you Beatrice? Oh my God, you're Beatrice!

Knox #9:

I can construct a theory in which chronotrig is the culprit!

Knox #1:

chronotrig's name is clearly visible on the Witch Hunt site before you ever download the patch! Therefore, it is possible for him to be the culprit!

Knox #5:

In this world, there exists no such place as "Japan!" Because the detective, Renall, has never seen it, no evidence exists which suggests that "anime" or "Japan" are anything more than a collective speculative exercise! Therefore, I cannot believe that "Umineko no Naku Koro Ni" was ever written by a "Japnese person" going by the handle ryukishi07 at all!

Knox #2:

Because I cannot be certain that "Japan" or "ryukishi07" exist, and no means exists to verify that they do in the context of this message board, I must conclude that only a member of this message board could be the author of Umineko!

However, chronotrig is a member of this message board! He also possesses the most knowledge of Umineko! Therefore chronotrig is the author of Umineko!

Furthermore, since it has never been established that ryukishi07 and chronotrig are different people, it is possible that they are!

Knox #10:

In order for it to be asserted that chronotrig is ryukishi, hints must exist. I submit those hints do exist. To wit:
  • Both ryukishi07 and chronotrig speak "Japanese!"
  • Both claim to know the answer to Umineko! Only the author of the game could know the answer!
  • ryukishi07 derives his nickname from a Square RPG! So does chronotrig!
  • chronotrig publishes and translates information attributed to ryukishi! However, there is no evidence that he did not produce this himself!
  • Both chronotrig and ryukishi have produced a text which can be identified as "Umineko no Naku Koro Ni!" I submit that if a work which everyone acknowledges as the same work is produced by two identities, both identities represent the same individual! It's Menard's Law!
Knox #8:

Because the Witch Hunt and 07th Expansion have presented the same work, and it contains no clues which definitively answer the mystery, no answer exists outside the mind of the author! This is why it is possible for ryukishi and chronotrig to both claim to know the answer when no one else does!

And of course, Knox #7:

I was not aware of the existence of Umineko until Banquet came out! Thus, I cannot be the author of Umineko! Therefore, I am not the culprit!

So it was you who was responsible for killing all those (fictional) people! Feel free to respond, but I recommend you save it for the (fictional?) magistrate.

Last edited by Renall; 2010-04-24 at 18:18.
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Old 2010-04-24, 18:39   Link #8991
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Renall...not only does your post make absolutely no sense, but you somehow managed to ignore what I said right there in your quote.

Quote:
If you still can't support Shkanon after doing that, then you have good reason to be disappointed with the series.
Of course, this part of the post was made under the assumption that Shkanon is part of the answer, which still isn't set in stone (and I mentioned this earlier in the post). Still, Ryuukishi has gotten pretty close to that in his interview, so it's only reasonable to prepare yourself for the possibility.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-04-24 at 18:59.
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Old 2010-04-24, 18:54   Link #8992
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hrmm.... Was it ever stated WHY Rosa kept Maria?

All I can think of is that Rosa somehow got pregnant, and was told by her current boyfriend/family that she should give the baby either through adoption or an abortion and Rosa said no that she will raise her baby how ever she wants....maybe?


I don't know it just came to me while reading through EP4 D:
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:00   Link #8993
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I think Rosa is ambivalent toward Maria. From one side she's happy to have her, think about when she said that Maria is her only ally, without Maria Rosa would be totally alone.
But from the other side Rosa sees Maria as a burden because all the men she meets do not want to marry a woman that already have a child.

Considering then how much protective Rosa becomes as soon as someone threatens to take Maria away from her, I think the mere idea to abort or abandon her child would trigger her Rosa-musou mode instantly.

Yes Rosa is irrational. She always whines about how much her life would be better if Maria wasn't with her, then a social worker, who could potentially make her wish come true, goes to her house and Rosa gets mad.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:05   Link #8994
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Another reason why Rosa kept Maria could be that she may have hoped for him to return one day. She did lose hope of his return at some point though.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:07   Link #8995
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Renall...not only does your post make absolutely no sense, but you somehow managed to ignore what I said right there in your quote.



Of course, this part of the post was made under the assumption that Shkanon is part of the answer, which still isn't set in stone (and I mentioned this earlier in the post). Still, Ryuukishi has gotten pretty close to that in his interview, so it's only reasonable to prepare yourself for the possibility.

I have a different problem with your assertion. You're saying that just because there appear to be clues supporting Shkanon, that means we have to accept it. I concede, there are clues that seem to point towards it. However...

Knox's 9th! It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Regardless of the interpretation that supports Shkanon, it is possible to interpret these clues as pointing to something else! For example, many Shkanon supporters point to the premise of the love duel as a major "read-between-the-lines" hint for Shkanon! However, it is equally possible that the love duel represents a literal, physical conflict between Shannon and Kanon! One of whom is the culprit, and the other is trying to stop them!

Claiming "clues exist to support Shkanon" is not in and of itself proof that Shkanon is fact! Without love, it cannot be seen! And in fact, the existence of Shkanon cheapens the love between George and Shannon and Jessica and Kanon! That's why I choose to interpret these clues another way.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:10   Link #8996
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He said you have to accept it as a possibility, not that you have to accept it as a fact.

If you truly believe what you just said, then you should also accept that people are entitled to have their own perspective based on shkanon theory and that it's perfectly acceptable in accordance to knox rules.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:10   Link #8997
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
I have a different problem with your assertion. You're saying that just because there appear to be clues supporting Shkanon, that means we have to accept it. I concede, there are clues that seem to point towards it. However...

Knox's 9th! It is permitted for observers to have their own opinions! Regardless of the interpretation that supports Shkanon, it is possible to interpret these clues as pointing to something else! For example, many Shkanon supporters point to the premise of the love duel as a major "read-between-the-lines" hint for Shkanon! However, it is equally possible that the love duel represents a literal, physical conflict between Shannon and Kanon! One of whom is the culprit, and the other is trying to stop them!

Claiming "clues exist to support Shkanon" is not in and of itself proof that Shkanon is fact! Without love, it cannot be seen! And in fact, the existence of Shkanon cheapens the love between George and Shannon and Jessica and Kanon! That's why I choose to interpret these clues another way.
Again, I'm not saying that Shkanon has been proven true. However, there is one clear answer that EP6 points to most strongly, and that includes Shkanon. Is it possible that that particular part is a bluff? Of course. But we should all look very closely at the most obvious answer if EP6 was, as Ryuukishi says, an answer instead of a hint.

That's all I'm asking. Please give Shkanon a chance, even if you don't like it.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:15   Link #8998
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Okay, I guess I read your post as a little more hostile than it really was. I've just come across so many people asserting it as FACT that I read into that a little more. It's definitely true that until it's said one way or another (and I'm sure it will be, probably in Ep. 7), both the Shkanon truth and the opposite truth are both acceptable for now.
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:17   Link #8999
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Well, I don't mind giving Shkannon a chance, but like Ryukishi keeps saying, sometimes we fall for the first obvious trap and stop thinking further. So far the discussion has focussed on whether it is true or not, and only Judoh's come with an alternate theory on what else it could be.

I'm all for giving it a chance, but not for us to stop thinking.

EDIT: By the way, I remember Ryukishi saying EP5 and 6 came with a lot of answers. But also that things happened so that if you understand the answer you would get your answers but also, you wouldn't be confused by it. 'Not be confused by it' because he also said there was a trap moved to EP5, right?

So pointing to EP6 as giving the answer for Shkannon doesn't seem right. If you point to something like the explosion or the faked deaths or the Kinzo conspiracy, those would be right since they were pretty much explicitly stated. However, there was nothing in EP5-6 that explicitly stated Shkannon. It was more dancing around the issue, slyly suggesting this MAAAAAAY be true... definitely EP6 was not an 'answer' for Shkannon. In fact it was more smoke and mirrors. So I suggest we not stop at this point and follow Judoh's lead. What else can Shannon and Kanon be involved in?
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Old 2010-04-24, 19:23   Link #9000
Judoh
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A Is it possible that that particular part is a bluff? Of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
That's all I'm asking. Please give Shkanon a chance, even if you don't like it.
At this point I'm starting to think Shkanon is possible, but if it's not true it's definitely not because Shkanon is a bluff. If Shkanon is not true that needs to be explained to the other half of the audience. And if that happens Kanon and Shannon will most definitely have a major role in the plot. That is guaranteed. I'm thinking that Shannon and Kanon are being threatened into doing something they wouldn't normally do at the other conferences.
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