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Old 2010-04-24, 23:56   Link #9101
Laserworm
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OHHHHHH, I got it. Kanon was fatally wounded. He did not come to save Battler intentionally. Nor did he meet Battler in the hallway. This is why Beatrice left the matter of whether the rescue was intentional or not.

He entered the guest room to hide himself and thought that setting the chain lock would give him security. Then he died while hiding in the closet.

This is similar to what Natsuhi did in EP5.
That actually works pretty well and it explains why Kanon goes in the room.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:57   Link #9102
Renall
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That actually works pretty well and it explains why Kanon goes in the room.
With the tiny problem: Who injured him?

EDIT: Maybe Owen Taylor did it.
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Old 2010-04-24, 23:59   Link #9103
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
@SeagullCrazy:
Yes, but any of those people can also be the murderer. You wouldn't say "Oh no, we have so many suspects it's impossible to find out who did it." You use logic and clues to try and guess who it is, or, which is much more interesting in my opinion, why it is that person.
No, I understand that behind all those personalities that there is a single human (possibly the culprit).

What I'm saying is that a person can escape physical death (declared in red text) by playacting as another personality. They killed off their first personality by faking their death, and remain as the second personality.

That's what Shkanon is saying. I don't see why it's not applicable to any other person.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:01   Link #9104
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
That actually works pretty well and it explains why Kanon goes in the room.
It doesn't quite work for EP1's chain lock room though. It fits the same pattern as Natsuhi in EP5.

1. Someone comes into the room.
2. Because of a feeling of insecurity they set the chain lock.
3. Further insecurity means they hide in the closet and do not come out.

4. Whether they die or not is irrelevant.

Actually, this is very, very simple. So simple that it doesn't really implicate anyone or say anything that we didn't know already. 8)
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:01   Link #9105
Laserworm
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With the tiny problem: Who injured him?
Sayo? After all we saw her shoot himXD

EDIT:
Quote:
It doesn't quite work for EP1's chain lock room though. It fits the same pattern as Natsuhi in EP5.

1. Someone comes into the room.
2. Because of a feeling of insecurity they set the chain lock.
3. Further insecurity means they hide in the closet and do not come out.

4. Whether they die or not is irrelevant.

Actually, this is very, very simple. So simple that it doesn't really implicate anyone or say anything that we didn't know already. 8)
The Shakannon thing doesn't answer that either.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:02   Link #9106
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What, so now they're dragging a corpse around too?

"I'll be right back guys. I'm taking that corpse that washed up on the beach to go solve the epitaph."

"Why do you need a corpse for that?"

"I might get hungry."
There's a doctor on the island, isn't there? Nanjo brought the corpse to the parlor to examine it! Erika's objectivity only applies to circumstances regarding the crime! Therefore, Bernkastel is able to proclaim certain things in red, such as the circumstances used to implicate Natsuhi, but it does not extend to what happens around it!
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:04   Link #9107
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Sayo? After all we saw her shoot himXD
Except that, if you believe the seal on the window issue doesn't apply (and it only becomes an issue when Erika raises it, so it appears Beatrice doesn't care if it's ever suggested anyone left that room), Shannon shouldn't be able to do that, or Kanon should be in a completely different room wherein he should not be getting shot. About the only person who could injure Kanon outside the room at the time Erika is in the room is Battler. Why would Battler injure Kanon fatally? Even in self-defense I'm not sure I can buy that. Battler is probably big enough to restrain Kanon.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:06   Link #9108
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Except that, if you believe the seal on the window issue doesn't apply (and it only becomes an issue when Erika raises it, so it appears Beatrice doesn't care if it's ever suggested anyone left that room), Shannon shouldn't be able to do that, or Kanon should be in a completely different room wherein he should not be getting shot. About the only person who could injure Kanon outside the room at the time Erika is in the room is Battler. Why would Battler injure Kanon fatally? Even in self-defense I'm not sure I can buy that. Battler is probably big enough to restrain Kanon.
Battler was worried Kanon was a threat! He expected Kyrie to come save him, and she never did! Alternatively, the seal issue was left alone to preserve the illusion of the witch! It was intentional trickery, and Sayo really did leave through the window and shoot Kanon!
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:07   Link #9109
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Comedy Option: Before the seals were confirmed, Kanon tried to slip out the window and got shot for trying to run away. He succumbed to the gunshot and injuries from falling out the window. And died in a closet like a dumbass.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:08   Link #9110
Kylon99
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Wait, wait, wait. If we're talking about similarities between all the chain room murders...

Then essentially what we have is Ryukishi showing us two chained room murders with three parties involved.

1. Murderer
2. Chain setter
3. Victim(s)

So for EP5:
1. Unknown killer
2. Natsuhi
3. Hideyoshi

For EP6:
1. Erika
2. Kanon
3. Battler

For EP1:
1. Unknown murderer
2. Unknown chain setter
3. Eva and Hideyoshi

... or... is it...

1. Unknown murderer
2. Eva or Hideyoshi
3. Eva or Hideyoshi


... once again... doesn't tell us anything new, does it?
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:08   Link #9111
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
No, I understand that behind all those personalities that there is a single human (possibly the culprit).

What I'm saying is that a person can escape death by playacting as another personality. They killed off their first personality by faking their death, and remain as the second personality.

That's what Shkanon is saying. I don't see why it's not applicable to any other person.
I think you're missing my point. If my guess is right, "furniture" is one of the basic rules of the game, like rules on a chessboard. Of course it applies to all characters.

However, just as you need evidence to show that person X is the killer, you also need evidence to show that personality X is furniture. Knox's 8th prevents this rule from being abused, but you have to figure out the rule first.

As has been hinted since the start of the series, the main puzzle of Umineko is figuring out the rules of the game.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:08   Link #9112
Laserworm
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I don't see how answer we come up with for this trick will help us solve ep1's lock trick. I mean Kanon didn't leave the room we know that. Does that mean the killer didn't leave the room?
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:10   Link #9113
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I think you're missing my point. If my guess is right, "furniture" is one of the basic rules of the game, like rules on a chessboard. Of course it applies to all characters.

However, just as you need evidence to show that person X is the killer, you also need evidence to show that personality X is furniture. Knox's 8th prevents this rule from being abused, but you have to figure out the rule first.

As has been hinted since the start of the series, the main puzzle of Umineko is figuring out the rules of the game.
I see no consistent evidence to suggest "furniture" is anything more than a social construct. It's used somewhat liberally in the meta-world, yet is withheld for certain characters without clear reason. Beatrice also seems to want to make Battler her furniture, yet that makes no logical sense if it describes something "more" than a social relationship.

Again, it doesn't make any sense.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:13   Link #9114
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So for EP5:
1. Unknown killer
2. Natsuhi
3. Hideyoshi
Didn't Hideyoshi set the chain lock?
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:15   Link #9115
Renall
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Didn't Hideyoshi set the chain lock?
He does indeed. Natsuhi considers setting it herself, then decides against it. Hideyoshi enters and makes rather a big show out of setting the chain lock and closing all the window shutters. Then, somehow, he notices someone he doesn't appear to recognize, struggles with this person, and is killed. Allegedly.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:16   Link #9116
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't see how answer we come up with for this trick will help us solve ep1's lock trick. I mean Kanon didn't leave the room we know that. Does that mean the killer didn't leave the room?
Shannon, having faked her death at the First Twilight, is alive and is allowed into Eva and Hideyoshi's room by Eva and Hideyoshi. They knew about the fake death plan, and that's why Hideyoshi didn't say anything about her being alive, as they assumed Shannon was in on it because she was in the shed! She kills them, and hides under the bed!
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:17   Link #9117
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't see how answer we come up with for this trick will help us solve ep1's lock trick. I mean Kanon didn't leave the room we know that. Does that mean the killer didn't leave the room?
I think so. I think maybe all it tells us is that the killer did not set the chain lock. And that the killer did not leave the room. But if the pattern is the same then it means we have to have at least 3 people in the room.

For EP1 it could be,

Hideyoshi is killed first in the bathroom, without Eva noticing it. Eva sets the chain lock. Killer kills Eva. Killer hides.

This pattern of events is interesting... but there's no functional difference between this and "Killer just kills them both, sets the chain and hides." So.... hmmmm... need to do more thinking.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
He does indeed. Natsuhi considers setting it herself, then decides against it. Hideyoshi enters and makes rather a big show out of setting the chain lock and closing all the window shutters. Then, somehow, he notices someone he doesn't appear to recognize, struggles with this person, and is killed. Allegedly.
Oops! I missed that point then.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:20   Link #9118
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I think you're missing my point. If my guess is right, "furniture" is one of the basic rules of the game, like rules on a chessboard. Of course it applies to all characters.

However, just as you need evidence to show that person X is the killer, you also need evidence to show that personality X is furniture. Knox's 8th prevents this rule from being abused, but you have to figure out the rule first.

As has been hinted since the start of the series, the main puzzle of Umineko is figuring out the rules of the game.
So basically I just need to prove that Personality X = furniture, and then I can start making theories about killing personalities, right?

Genji is a personality. Just like Shannon and Kanon, he has also been referred to as furniture since EP1. Therefore, the human controlling the personality "Genji" is Person X. Knox's 1st. I can't use a Culprit X. So unless I can think of a specific person that controls this "Genji" personality, I can only conclude that my method of figuring out what is furniture was wrong.

Huh, that didn't work out very well.
If Genji = furniture is not a valid reason for him to be a personality, then Kanon = furniture and Shannon = furniture are also not valid reasons.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:21   Link #9119
Laserworm
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Shannon, having faked her death at the First Twilight, is alive and is allowed into Eva and Hideyoshi's room by Eva and Hideyoshi. They knew about the fake death plan, and that's why Hideyoshi didn't say anything about her being alive, as they assumed Shannon was in on it because she was in the shed! She kills them, and hides under the bed!
Quote:
For EP1 it could be,

Hideyoshi is killed first in the bathroom, without Eva noticing it. Eva sets the chain lock. Killer kills Eva. Killer hides.

This pattern of events is interesting... but there's no functional difference between this and "Killer just kills them both, sets the chain and hides." So.... hmmmm... need to do more thinking.
There is just one problem, the magic circle that appears after Kanon and Genji leave, and is seen by Kanon and Kumasawa shortly after.
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Old 2010-04-25, 00:22   Link #9120
Shiro Kaisen
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Kanon's viewpoint is not objective! And the Out-of-Game TIPS confirmed that Genji was painting the magic circles! Therefore, Genji painted the circle!

...the question is why. Was Genji working with Shannontrice?
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