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Old 2010-04-25, 13:33   Link #9161
Judoh
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Also, Beatrice clearly states that the contract with Kinzo terminates when he dies. Which means it should have terminated last year.
Well if what the the letter says about the contract is taken literally Battler would probably be included in that interest along with the servants the family and the mansions. He also didn't come back until a year later. Which begs the question. Why is Ange not included in that contract, while Battler is?

Also I thought this was in important hint in the meta world in episode 2

Battler: "Dad often tellls me something. He says that there's nothing as scary as contracts... He said that it's only natural that people who agree without reading them thoroughly will be chewed to the bone.
...He made a killing through vice..."
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:37   Link #9162
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
An interesting thought exercise: Reread ep1-3 (4 is kind of anomalous in this respect) with the idea that everyone else suspects Battler is the killer. Rosa and Eva do seem to be wary of him in 2 and 3...
Well, Rosa flat out accuses him, and in a fashion that makes me suspect she is aware he may not be Asumu's son. ("a random son of Rudolf" is probably what she meant to say, assuming Rudolf has a platoon of those, which isn't that much of a stretch) and gets a similar accusation back.

But in most cases, Battler hangs out very tightly with the other cousins, he gets left completely alone very rarely. Anyone who suspects Battler in particular will usually have to suspect the other cousins of collusion with him to provide an alibi, and no accusations of this kind are ever stated. It's more like everyone is ignoring that Battler even exists, and Battler tends to observe other people's conversations more readily than he participates in them himself...

...wait a minute, what if it's Battler who doesn't actually exist?
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:39   Link #9163
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...wait a minute, what if it's Battler who doesn't actually exist?
That's what I thought I was going to have to be prepared for in episode 6 because of him becoming a sorcerer and all. I thought I as going to have to deny his existence instead.
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:40   Link #9164
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This is kind of what I meant in the first place
and that's where I don't get it.
In the case the murderer knows of the endgame explosion, he wouldn't bother killing anyone. Why going through that hassle if everyone is going to die anyway? So in this case the one who wants to cover him, wouldn't have anything to cover.

In the case the murderer doesn't know of the endgame explosion, then we have two cases: the one who wants to cover him, knows of the endgame explosion, but in that case the endgame explosion would be the most effective way to cover everything up, so there wouldn't be actually any need to make fake murderers and closed rooms.

In the cases both of them do not know... well you have something incredibly improbable.
Either you have not 2 but 3 different parties with different agenda: murderer, person who covers the murderer, explosion murderer. Or 2 plans and an unfortunate incident: murderer, person who cover the murderer, and natural event that just happens to solve everyone's problems permanently.

this path of reasonings doesn't seem very promising to me.
I think the old idea that someone is trying to create a fake murder mistery and a killer of opportunity jumps in killing everyone for real, is by far more credible.
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:49   Link #9165
Kylon99
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By the way, the red text is:

朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條の みだった。
死体の朱志香ももちろん含む。
よって、朱志香の部屋の件、そしてこの使用人室の件の両方について、そなたが認識していた以外の人間は存在 しない。


When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of


Notice the 死体 is conveniently outside the red in that second line. But it's inside the red at 朱志香の死体発見時. But once again 朱志香の死体発見時 forms a full noun or whatever that part of grammar is called...

By the way, I'm not sure where that 'Whoops' comes from. Maybe a bad translation from http://umineko.wikia.com/
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:50   Link #9166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think the old idea that someone is trying to create a fake murder mistery and a killer of opportunity jumps in killing everyone for real, is by far more credible.
A clue to this could be that Eva and Rosa seem 100% sure that the first twilight is fake in ep3.
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:51   Link #9167
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
and that's where I don't get it.
In the case the murderer knows of the endgame explosion, he wouldn't bother killing anyone. Why going through that hassle if everyone is going to die anyway? So in this case the one who wants to cover him, wouldn't have anything to cover.
The murderer might have a sadistic wish to go on a killing spree in addition to a rational desire to have everyone dead. Then someone who wants to cover for the sadistic wish but doesn't know of the endgame explosion starts covering, probably puzzling the murderer. That is the only way it works and I don't like it myself. I'm actually arguing that if anyone deliberately wants to kill everyone in the endgame explosion, they have to be a distinct faction of their own not normally engaged in murder. If such a distinct faction seems unrealistic, it follows that the endgame explosion is not deliberate.

Also as LyricalAura explained above, in this context stakes as a 'don't worry he's dead' message may have a completely different motivation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the cases both of them do not know... well you have something incredibly improbable.
Either you have not 2 but 3 different parties with different agenda: murderer, person who covers the murderer, explosion murderer. Or 2 plans and an unfortunate incident: murderer, person who cover the murderer, and natural event that just happens to solve everyone's problems permanently.
This can be bypassed by the explosion actually being an inevitable result of a normally occurring action, which result is not actually foreseen. Only in Ep4 the person triggering it has to be Beatrice. The big problem with it is that the triggering action has to happen at at least slightly different times, but explosion seems to always happen at 00:00 sharp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think the old idea that someone is trying to create a fake murder mistery and a killer of opportunity jumps in killing everyone for real, is by far more credible.
These ideas are closely related anyway... The problem with the fake murder mystery and a killer of opportunity 'as is' is that there is a need to explain why someone engaging in a fake murder mystery plot would continue to do so when it is obvious real murders have started happening, perpetrated by someone who is not them, and potentially implicating them in the real murders when they aren't guilty.
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Old 2010-04-25, 13:58   Link #9168
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Can we really be sure of that? With Ep5 you have 6 people that the TIPS claim having their head almost severed, who then walk away by their own.
With such a thing being possible how can you be sure that any body that was found in any previous episode was actually dead?

Even red truth confirmations unless they happen in the exact moment people see the bodies aren't worth much, and even in that case you can't tell if the murder happened after the staking or if the bodies you see are actually bodies rather than some kind of special effect fake body.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:03   Link #9169
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Can we really be sure of that? With Ep5 you have 6 people that the TIPS claim having their head almost severed, who then walk away by their own.
With such a thing being possible how can you be sure that any body that was found in any previous episode was actually dead?

Even red truth confirmations unless they happen in the exact moment people see the bodies aren't worth much, and even in that case you can't tell if the murder happened after the staking or if the bodies you see are actually bodies rather than some kind of special effect fake body.
Wasn't there a red that said, no corpses exist besides the characters in this story. And that no body doubles exist.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:03   Link #9170
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But in most cases, Battler hangs out very tightly with the other cousins, he gets left completely alone very rarely. Anyone who suspects Battler in particular will usually have to suspect the other cousins of collusion with him to provide an alibi, and no accusations of this kind are ever stated. It's more like everyone is ignoring that Battler even exists, and Battler tends to observe other people's conversations more readily than he participates in them himself...

...wait a minute, what if it's Battler who doesn't actually exist?
Three things:

One, most people seem to ignore both Battler and Maria, but not to the point that you could argue they're not there. They listen to them sometimes, at least as often as anyone listens to Erika in ep5, and probably more.

Two, remember that while Battler is left alone very rarely, the characters he isn't with are not necessarily aware of this. Sure, you can see Battler with George, leave for a while, and come back to find Battler with George, but you don't know they stuck together the whole time. In ep2 especially, the servants spend some time away...

Three, and semi-unrelated: Did you happen to notice how odd George and Shannon were on the beach in ep1 when "listening" to Maria talk about magic? I daresay they're coaching her. George also provides some information about her symbols and charms completely unsolicited with no prompting whatsoever from Maria or Shannon.

If Shannontrice is true, then it's very possible she's his conduit for arcane knowledge, but generally speaking it's George who seems to know things, not Shannon. And if Shannon's not even the one doing the epitaph murders (or "murders" if it's a fake plot), and that's Genji or Kumasawa's brainchild, where the hell is George learning all this stuff?

EDIT: By the way, in ep4 Gaap refers to George as a "king." While she isn't using a chess metaphor, I believe he's one of the only people ever referred to as a king.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:05   Link #9171
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Wasn't there a red that said, no corpses exist besides the characters in this story. And that no body doubles exist.
that was said about EP1, and in EP1 we have a lack of red truths that can give us certainities about the time of death
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:06   Link #9172
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
that was said about EP1, and in EP1 we have a lack of red truths that can give us certainities about the time of death
I thought it was more meaning all games. *shurgs*
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:09   Link #9173
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Three, and semi-unrelated: Did you happen to notice how odd George and Shannon were on the beach in ep1 when "listening" to Maria talk about magic? I daresay they're coaching her. George also provides some information about her symbols and charms completely unsolicited with no prompting whatsoever from Maria or Shannon.

If Shannontrice is true, then it's very possible she's his conduit for arcane knowledge, but generally speaking it's George who seems to know things, not Shannon. And if Shannon's not even the one doing the epitaph murders (or "murders" if it's a fake plot), and that's Genji or Kumasawa's brainchild, where the hell is George learning all this stuff?

EDIT: By the way, in ep4 Gaap refers to George as a "king." While she isn't using a chess metaphor, I believe he's one of the only people ever referred to as a king.
George = Beatrice. Geortrice. XD jk. Though I wondered about that too, I noticed that George seems to know some stuff about ocult. And in ep3 he seems interested in learning it.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:11   Link #9174
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Actually it makes it very hard to call George a Beatrice candidate in any form if he's a king, as Beatrice is usually a Queen (or lesser piece). However, if George were the mastermind, suddenly the metaphor makes sense: He has limited mobility on his own (gotta keep an alibi and appearances), but if he's controlling at least Shannon somehow, he has access to powerful pieces that can protect him.

EDIT: Looking at it from a gender perspective, Beatrice is generally subservient to some dominating male figure. Kinzo, Battler, George (if you believe she's not the one manipulating him, that is). The sincerity of these "kings" (Ronove does call Battler "your majesty") seems to vary, of course, and only Battler seems inclined to put Beatrice on a level even to him.

Could Battler's sin be a broken promise driving Shannon to George, giving him the piece he needed for some end of his own?
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:17   Link #9175
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually it makes it very hard to call George a Beatrice candidate in any form if he's a king, as Beatrice is usually a Queen (or lesser piece). However, if George were the mastermind, suddenly the metaphor makes sense: He has limited mobility on his own (gotta keep an alibi and appearances), but if he's controlling at least Shannon somehow, he has access to powerful pieces that can protect him.
The thing I've noticed is that even if the suspected mastermind dies people will still commit murder. Kyrie dies early a lot and George usually dies mid-end game. Either this person's "pieces" are not aware he is dead and are still following his instructions for whatever reason. Or there is some kind of will or promise he made that keeps them from stopping. The story Hideyoshi tells in episode 5 about Takeda's death being hidden while the war continues is a key hint here.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:18   Link #9176
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Actually it makes it very hard to call George a Beatrice candidate in any form if he's a king, as Beatrice is usually a Queen (or lesser piece). However, if George were the mastermind, suddenly the metaphor makes sense: He has limited mobility on his own (gotta keep an alibi and appearances), but if he's controlling at least Shannon somehow, he has access to powerful pieces that can protect him.
I would really like to see the mastermind turn out to be George or Jessica in the end.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:20   Link #9177
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If Shannontrice is true, then it's very possible she's his conduit for arcane knowledge, but generally speaking it's George who seems to know things, not Shannon. And if Shannon's not even the one doing the epitaph murders (or "murders" if it's a fake plot), and that's Genji or Kumasawa's brainchild, where the hell is George learning all this stuff?
No idea, but here's a relevant issue... In Ep1 and in Ep3, i.e. whenever he is faced with the prospect of dead Shannon -- whether one is actually dead or not -- he announces his intent (with Battler present to hear it) to actually study magic to resurrect Shannon, no matter how silly it sounds. In Ep1 he does that in the study, in Ep3 he expresses his intent and then sneaks out of the guesthouse only to be found dead soon after.

In Ep2, where he is with Shannon, he is actually described going on a rather dangerous adventure to recover the heirloom mirror which, as described, essentially amounts to using a magic item against the witch directly.

In all three cases, it seems like the intent and interest in magic is there but the knowledge is rather cursory unlike what Maria displays.

...What if George and Beatrice actually have a common teacher whom Beatrice took seriously but George did not until the going got tough?
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:20   Link #9178
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The death of the mastermind would not necessarily stop his or her minions if:
  • Their reason for helping the mastermind was not fear of something the mastermind would do (thus their death would remove the threat).
  • They had no alternative (the mastermind is the only one who can disarm the bomb or somesuch).
  • They aren't aware the person is dead yet, or are afraid they faked it.
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:23   Link #9179
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
By the way, the red text is:

朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條の みだった。
死体の朱志香ももちろん含む。
よって、朱志香の部屋の件、そしてこの使用人室の件の両方について、そなたが認識していた以外の人間は存在 しない。


When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of


Notice the 死体 is conveniently outside the red in that second line. But it's inside the red at 朱志香の死体発見時. But once again 朱志香の死体発見時 forms a full noun or whatever that part of grammar is called...

By the way, I'm not sure where that 'Whoops' comes from. Maybe a bad translation from http://umineko.wikia.com/
The original goes like this:

おっと、死体の#朱志香ももちろん含む#

おっと is the Whoops
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Old 2010-04-25, 14:25   Link #9180
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I would really like to see the mastermind turn out to be George or Jessica in the end.
I would really like a repeat of Keiichi's battle under the moon with Rena if George or Jessica are the masterminds. Battler could probably put up a decent fight in the end.

If it's Jessica it'll probably be boxing match or a Solid Snake (Battler) vs Liquid snake (Jessica) kind of Battle.

Also if Battler killing the culprit was needed to stop the bomb that'd be neat twist. It could be remote controlled or something.
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