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Old 2010-04-25, 15:09   Link #9201
Jan-Poo
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That's definitely wrong Renall, Battler remembers things his grandmother told him
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:11   Link #9202
SeagullCrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
...I do wonder whether 'appeared in the story' includes only people who have a sprite or not. If it does, I wonder if professor Ootsuki or captain Kawabata are included.
Since it mentions "in the story" I would guess it's talking about the story of EP5 only. It was the only story to break the fourth wall and say that they were in a mystery novel. So I think that this is another reference to that, and so if the character didn't appear in the story of EP5, there isn't a chance of their corpse existing either.
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:15   Link #9203
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Since it mentions "in the story" I would guess it's talking about the story of EP5 only. It was the only story to break the fourth wall and say that they were in a mystery novel. So I think that this is another reference to that, and so if the character didn't appear in the story of EP5, there isn't a chance of their corpse existing either.
I disagree I think it's just more information suggesting Knox's first. There can only be culprits that are characters introduced early in the story so through contrapositive there can only be corpses of people introduced early in the story. It might be only for 1-4 or 1-5. We don't know.

I don't think "story" refers to something like the "scenario". The only time I've seen any reds referring to something that is only true in one scenario like that is EVAtrice in episode 3 and she uses the word "game" not "story"

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-25 at 15:30.
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:30   Link #9204
Jan-Poo
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hmmm I just realized something... there are several instances where it's implied that the one who started the rumors of the "witch living in the forest" is Kinzo's wife.

Why Kinzo's wife started that rumor? It is also heavily implied that she thought Kinzo cheated on her. But then I don't get it, why she spread the rumor about the witch? It seems she used to tell that to her children so they would never venture into the forest. But if she was aware of the Kuwadorian and Beatrice, why she wanted to cover up the truth with the story of a witch?
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:33   Link #9205
Kitsu
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Why Kinzo's wife started that rumor? It is also heavily implied that she thought Kinzo cheated on her. But then I don't get it, why she spread the rumor about the witch? It seems she used to tell that to her children so they would never venture into the forest. But if she was aware of the Kuwadorian and Beatrice, why she wanted to cover up the truth with the story of a witch?
I wouldn't want my children to find out that I was being cheated on by that bastard and try to make the family appear as happy as possible.
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:33   Link #9206
Judoh
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I guess Kinzo and his wife would have "an understanding".

Where do they say that though? I thought it was Kinzo that they said made up the legend. Didn't he make up the idea of the wolves in the forest, and then he changed it to a witch Because Rudolf wanted to pet the wolves?
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Old 2010-04-25, 15:54   Link #9207
Jan-Poo
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yes they also said that, but Battler knows the story differently

Quote:
Hunters who go out to the forest have technical knowledge as well, yet are also in danger. ...If children go play in that dangerous forest, something terrible might happen. Someone's parents must have thought so. ...Maybe my Grandmother, or possibly anybody else other than Grandfather might have said that.
and

Quote:
However, since there was the danger of them getting lost in the abandoned forest, Grandmother began to spread the story that the witch lived in the forest and that approaching it was forbidden
and

Quote:
.Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to make fun of your dreams. I apologize. Beatrice does exist. Even now she's living in the forest, and comes every night to the mansion to peek in and see what everyone's doing. ......So you shouldn't go into the forest. At night, you mustn't stare into the dark forest. You might be seen by the witch of the forest, Beatrice. .........After all, Grandmother said so.
and

Quote:
Who in the world is Beatrice? ...All I know is that she's a witch who lives in the forest of Rokkenjima. ...I've heard that it's a story that Grandmother or someone invented to keep people out of the dangerous forest. ......Is that wrong?
Battler is not 100% sure but he seems to remember it was his grandmother who started it all
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:01   Link #9208
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's definitely wrong Renall, Battler remembers things his grandmother told him
Which grandmother? I may have read it wrong, but I assumed he meant Asumu's mother (his "maternal" grandmother), not Kinzo's wife. Either way, she's probably been dead long enough that her presence is unlikely in life or death. And the mere fact she doesn't even have a name or portrait yet seems telling as to her importance (then again, Asumu...).

Regardless, the behavior of Kinzo's wife is perfectly explicable: She believed he was cheating on her and sneaking off somewhere. Whether he was cheating or not, he was sneaking off somewhere, so she was right. Maybe she eventually found out and the issue wasn't what she thought it was, so she became complicit in trying to prevent others from finding out. Or maybe she just went a little crazy with suspicion.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:24   Link #9209
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
yes they also said that, but Battler knows the story differently.
Battler is not 100% sure but he seems to remember it was his grandmother who started it all
It could be that Kinzo was the one who started both of them, but since Beatrice died he stopped saying that, but Kinzo's wife continued to use the witch story. Therefore that explains why Battler thinks that she told the story.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:39   Link #9210
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
I wouldn't want my children to find out that I was being cheated on by that bastard and try to make the family appear as happy as possible.
The problem with that is she did let people know she thought she was being cheated on didn't she?

Besides the family doesn't need to appear happy when they live on a deserted island. There's nobody around to care.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:40   Link #9211
Renall
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
It could be that Kinzo was the one who started both of them, but since Beatrice died he stopped saying that, but Kinzo's wife continued to use the witch story. Therefore that explains why Battler thinks that she told the story.
Alternately, Kinzo's wife spread the earlier stories of demons on the island and it got mixed up with the Beatrice legend. This has been brought up in ep6, though it hasn't explicitly been stated who was spreading what legend. Still, the island has a history; Battler may not be entirely sure which parts of the legend come from which people.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:49   Link #9212
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Besides the family doesn't need to appear happy when they live on a deserted island. There's nobody around to care.
Actually, consider this instead. You're on a deserted island and your husband still manages to cheat on you. And you're pretty sure there's no reliable evidence you could present, while the accusation itself sounds patently absurd. Deserted island, you're practically alone there, come on.

I expect that after a brief period of admitting that you think he does, you would shut up and accept any other story that would let you explain the events as something else, including the one he uses.

Not because it's true, but because unrestricted paranoia is just the grounds he needs to ship you off to the loony bin - and if he is truly cheating on you, getting rid of you in this manner may well be within his plans. "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo."
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:49   Link #9213
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Which grandmother? I may have read it wrong, but I assumed he meant Asumu's mother (his "maternal" grandmother), not Kinzo's wife. Either way, she's probably been dead long enough that her presence is unlikely in life or death. And the mere fact she doesn't even have a name or portrait yet seems telling as to her importance (then again, Asumu...).

Regardless, the behavior of Kinzo's wife is perfectly explicable: She believed he was cheating on her and sneaking off somewhere. Whether he was cheating or not, he was sneaking off somewhere, so she was right. Maybe she eventually found out and the issue wasn't what she thought it was, so she became complicit in trying to prevent others from finding out. Or maybe she just went a little crazy with suspicion.
No it's Kinzo's wife, but actually reading again it is possible that Battler was reporting what they told him she said and not what he himself heard.

Battler does say in one instance that his grandmother is since long time deceased. But "long time" could be 10 years, it's hard to tell. Anyway she didn't die recently.
Now that I remember, however, she was still alive in 1967 because Rosa said she had an argument with her.

Quote:
Rudolf: Which means, ...maybe, about 20 years ago?

Rosa: Back then, my grades weren't very good, and Mother was always angry at me. ......I had tried to do my best in my own way, but I couldn't respond to Mother's expectations at all...

Krauss: ......Mother was always very strict with Rosa. I sympathized with her at the time.
And here I just notice that there's something that doesn't match

This is from EP5, when Natsuhi tells how the baby died:

Quote:
My husband had been on a business trip. Rosa-san, who had still lived on the island at the time, had been traveling with her friends.
......Father and I were the only ones on Rokkenjima!!
What the hell?!

Look I guess you could still say that Kinzo's wife died between the time Beatrice and the baby did. But I find this extremely improbable. If that was the case I think the siblings should have mentioned the fact that their own mother died around the time Rosa had that little adventure, and in that case Rosa should be able to remember the exact date.

No, I think it's more probable that Kinzo's wife was still alive, and Natsuhi just forgot to mention her for some reasons.

Quote:
Actually, consider this instead. You're on a deserted island and your husband still manages to cheat on you. And you're pretty sure there's no reliable evidence you could present, while the accusation itself sounds patently absurd. Deserted island, you're practically alone there, come on.

I expect that after a brief period of admitting that you think he does, you would shut up and accept any other story that would let you explain the events as something else, including the one he uses.
Personally, I think the probabilities that Kinzo's wife didn't know about Kuwadorian are almost 0, which means she had no real problems explaining how Kinzo was cheating on her.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:51   Link #9214
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Honestly, I don't think it needs to be revealed in text. Whether it be said in red or even by Rudolf. I mean because seriously can we just not conclude the most logical answer -- there are so many hints that Kyrie is his mother that it isn't funny. In EP 6 she even says her and Asumu were in the exact same hospital when delivering, IIRC.
Yeah, I would bet that Battler’s real mom in Kyrie. That’s why I put it in my theory back when I wrote it.

However, I don’t think we conclude it yet since Natsuhi is still a possible candidate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
  • Two entrances into the mansion aboveground lead to the courtyard, both non locking, and one from the underground boiler room. Otherwise, leaving the boiler room and ending up in the courtyard, there would be no way Battler would be confused which door to take. It is never mentioned where each of the two entrances go. The text does not actually say if the courtyard boiler room door has a lock or not, though, just that the aboveground courtyard doors do not.
Here is the relevant text from the game:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 1
<scene: They just found Kanon and are inside the boiler room>
Battler: “Natsuhi oba-san, where does that door go?!”
Natsuhi: “G, Genji! Where does that door lead to?!”
Genji: “...The, the courtyard!”

“The courtyard of the mansion had been built strictly for lighting purposes, so it wasn’t a very elegant place. Because it was surrounded on all sides, the air was calm and completely undisturbed, even though they could hear the sound of strong winds...”

“...Furthermore, there were two entrances into the mansion from the courtyard, and neither of them were locked. Because the courtyard couldn’t be entered from outside the mansion, the doors had been built without locks.

“...He didn’t know which one they had left through! He had to give up. Battler pounded the wall with his fist swearing...”
Is there a reason why we should question whether or not the boiler room door which connects to the courtyard has a lock?

The dialog quoted above suggests that there is no need to place a lock on any of the doors connecting to the courtyard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
  • Eva's body was found lying face-up on the bed with her shoes still on, which contradicts the prior scene showing Eva and Hideyoshi having an intimate moment in bed. This strongly suggests that she was actually outside the room when she was killed, and that she was carried back and posed.
I agree that they could have been killed outside the room even though the red truth exists:
Both were killed by another person! It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room! No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!
I think that this red truth is just denying the possibility of firing some kind of weapon through a crack in the door when it is partially opened but the chain is still set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If the lack of portrait is an issue, then even Asumu and Kinzo's wife are out
Since Asumu is supposed to be dead in 1986 and the game takes place during 1986 I think it would be a larger issue if Asumu did have a portrait.

There's always the possibility that Asumu does have a portrait already...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
真里亜は死んでなかった! みんなは生きている!
What happened to the link to your epitaph solution?
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:57   Link #9215
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And here I just notice that there's something that doesn't match

This is from EP5, when Natsuhi tells how the baby died:
Quote:
My husband had been on a business trip. Rosa-san, who had still lived on the island at the time, had been traveling with her friends.
......Father and I were the only ones on Rokkenjima!!
What the hell?!
Actually, there's one more oddity in there.

Rosa is in middle school at the time. That is, she is barely 16 if that. Just what kind of friends would she be travelling with? The only reasonable way a schoolgirl of this age would end up travelling is a school trip, and then Natsuhi would say that, and not something else.
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Old 2010-04-25, 17:58   Link #9216
Jan-Poo
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I don't see the issue, there's been flashbacks that predate Asumu's death by many years. Ryukishi had plenty of situations to bring it up, he just seems to prefer to give almost no info on her. The most stuff we know about her come from Kyrie's mouth, and I don' trust Kyrie on that subject.

Quote:
Rosa is in middle school at the time. That is, she is barely 16 if that. Just what kind of friends would she be travelling with? The only reasonable way a schoolgirl of this age would end up travelling is a school trip, and then Natsuhi would say that, and not something else.
True, but maybe one of those girls' parents were there. Like in case a girl wants to go hiking or whatever, but she can't go alone so she asks her father or mother to accompany her and then she invites her friends. Only one adult is needed so the other parents just trust that one parent to take care of everyone. This can happen.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:05   Link #9217
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't see the issue, there's been flashbacks that predate Asumu's death by many years. Ryukishi had plenty of situations to bring it up, he just seems to prefer to give almost no info on her. The most stuff we know about her come from Kyrie's mouth, and I don' trust Kyrie on that subject.
But in those flashbacks do we ever get to see any tachi-e of what anyone looked like during that time period? (Except for young Eva of course)

I don't think there's any problem with the fact that we haven't seen what Asumu looks like yet because of this.
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:06   Link #9218
Kylon99
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Wait...

If Beatrice died in '67 or so... and Rosa reports her mother being around. Yet in that same year, Natsuhi also reports her mother-in-law not being around, if this is not an error doesn't mean that Kinzo's wife died in '67? So we have 3 deaths that year? I wouldn't be surprised that Kinzo's wife hurled herself off a cliff too.

Dammit, is Rokkenjima designed by Star Wars engineers or something? Put some railings up! Or in the case of Natsuhi's servant and baby.. put some really, really tall railings. 8)
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:11   Link #9219
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Wait...

If Beatrice died in '67 or so... and Rosa reports her mother being around. Yet in that same year, Natsuhi also reports her mother-in-law not being around, if this is not an error doesn't mean that Kinzo's wife died in '67? So we have 3 deaths that year? I wouldn't be surprised that Kinzo's wife hurled herself off a cliff too.

Dammit, is Rokkenjima designed by Star Wars engineers or something? Put some railings up! Or in the case of Natsuhi's servant and baby.. put some really, really tall railings. 8)
Either Rosa or Natsuhi lied, both of them lied, or neither of them lied and the three people just happened to die within the same year.

If both of them lied about their stories then isn't it possible for:
1967 Beatrice = Servant who Natsuhi pushed off the cliff = Kinzo's wife

Then again, I don't see why they would lie about it.

Yeah, it's getting wierd now...
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Old 2010-04-25, 18:14   Link #9220
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Is there a reason why we should question whether or not the boiler room door which connects to the courtyard has a lock?

The dialog quoted above suggests that there is no need to place a lock on any of the doors connecting to the courtyard.
There is no such reason for Battler at the time, but there is for us:
  • The boiler room is a room with two doors.
  • If both are lockable, whether by key, bolt, chain or other means, it can become a closed room as per the Beatrice definition.
  • If the door out of the boiler room to the courtyard is not lockable, it is at least a room closable only in one direction, because you can climb down from Kinzo's study and possibly other places into the courtyard. I.e. you can enter it even if you can't leave.
  • The applicability of the boiler room as a closed room at all hinges on the status of not only the boiler<->courtyard door, but also on the status of the two courtyard<->??? doors.

I.e. if the boiler<->courtyard door is lockable there's no problem. Otherwise, if the two doors X are courtyard<->corridor, boiler room cannot be a closed room. If they are doors of type courtyard<->room_X, boiler room can be an unidirectional closed room even if the boiler<->courtyard door is not lockable, but two more keys may be involved.

But in either case, a way exists to traverse from one part of the mansion to another through the courtyard without alerting anyone along the way. How useful is that is something we don't really know.
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