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View Poll Results: Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Rating
Perfect 10 61 71.76%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 17.65%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 5.88%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 2.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.18%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.18%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-04-26, 00:43   Link #41
xellos2099
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I think we will see the most likely the greatest manliness dual friendship attack in history next week, but I been wonder how they are going to handle this since they skip over some stuff back in devil den arc.
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Old 2010-04-26, 02:58   Link #42
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
In terms of how we know alchemy works, it's perfectly consistent because Roy is able to immediately resplit the carbon dioxide and provide oxygen continuously. The crux of his technique is to adjust the oxygen levels after all.

The part that actually "breaks physics" is the heat. In the FMA world, it seems there's not that much radiant heat. Being in that close proximity to what are obviously extremely hot flames should have toasted Roy and the other bystanders and we aren't provided with a mechanism that prevents that.
The dead catgirls... They're everywhere... Oh, the felinity...!

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I know I already praised him last week, but this was the episode where Shinichiro Miki truly shined. His "Disappear from my sight!" scream in particular was extremely awesome. Just as intense and vicious as it needed to be. I remember back when the series first started I was somewhat hesitant about accepting him as Roy since his voice is so different from the first series' Toru Ohkawa, but he's definitely won me over by now.
I can't believe he hadn't already won you over during the Maria Ross subplot. His "Yo, Hagane no..." still chills me, even knowing what was really going on well before the start of this series. ^_^ Excellent voice actors are excellent voice actors, and Miki has always been one. He may have had big shoes to fill on an iconic character and portrayal, but he's certainly made the character his own... The better writing and characterization of this series (and by extension the latter parts of the manga) certainly haven't hurt... ^_^

EDIT: Actually, looking back, Miki was just win and awesome all over that episode (#17)... ^_^

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
And after that amazing first half it normally would've been hard for the rest of the episode to follow up, but Alex's utter manliness sure did the job. Izumi's entrance was sweet too. And FINALLY the Hohenheim vs Father staredown! Been waiting a long time for that, though their decision to show it now instead of back in episode 51 is a fairly wise one.
I totally marked out during the Alex scene. It didn't have the animation quality or the gravitas of the previous half of the episode, but hot damn if it didn't make up for it in sheer audacity. And Olivier's simple but emotional "Yosh!" and the Crowning Music of Awesome just put it right over the top. And Alex is just starting up. (but that's a topic for next week... ^_^)
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Old 2010-04-26, 07:48   Link #43
Gooral
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Everything below is my opinion and I won't add "IMO" in every sentence. Feel free to disagree. And I prefer to refer to Envy as a "she" but I will refer to that worm as "he" as well".

And so here we are, the most annoying chapter of FMA (94th) has finally been animated. I didn't like it in the manga and since FMA:B is several times worse than manga I hated this episode. There were only 5 good things in it: Izumi's entrance, topless Riza, Roy's anger (before everything became pink and everyone loved one another and wanted to hug), Armstrong's and Hohenheim's performances. The rest made me want to puke or at best extremely annoyed me.
Firstly, Olivier annoyed me as always acting all tough and all. The whole "you're under my command now" and soldiers instantly listening to her was so unconvincing that I can't believe Arakawa did that. "Defend yourselves and don't be killed". No s*it Sherlock. And I should start with the fact they didn't shoot her on sight (even though they were ordered to) but waited until she could talk to them and until dolls came.
Secondly, the thing with Roy was utterly stupid. From berserk mode Roy went to hugging everyone, saying that shrimp make him realize his mistake (yeah, right...), etc. That was completely out of his character.

To be more specific:

1) Roy killed dozens of innocent people (and who knows if not hundreds, with his destructive power I wouldn't be surprised), woman and children also (whether directly or not, doesn't matter) as well as Ishbalans that only defended themselves from aggressors and had no chance against Amestris' superior power (and he knew it). He didn't kill Envy however, because it was, eh... wrong?! So mass murderer, trash and war criminal in one person was of more worth than dozens of Ishbalans? It certainly looks that way. Mustang literally made people s*it themselves and he didn't even budge then but continued to do a human barbecue. There was no sign of emotion when he fried people, even the ones that had no strength to fight back. What's more a while later he cheerfully talked with Hughes! Years later he flirted with girls and acted casually as if nothing happened, he wasn't a psycho and didn't kill people randomly. Why would killing Envy change him? Let's be serious here.

2) I don't know what Roy was waiting for with killing Envy. Before Riza or Ed could do anything he would have already burned him. He also should have done that before Riza put a gun into his head, it looked like he was waiting for her to do it. He also could kill Envy without hurting Ed (he would only warm up his automail a little).

3) Scar was preaching him, now that's a good one. He and Scar are completely different and their revenge was on a different scale too. Scar hated (and still hates but he is over with killing) ALL Amestrians. Whether they were doctors (that saved his brethren lives) or children (Ed, Al) it didn't make a difference to him. His desire for revenge had no end since there were many Ishbalan murderers. Mustang however hated only ONE person. Chain of hatred would end where it started with one death. He would kill Envy and it would be THE END. And no, I won't believe that it could change him in any way. If he wasn't changed for worse after killing innocent PEOPLE (not some worms, mass murderes at that) he would most certainly not be changed by killing the biggest son-of-a-**ore that existed. He was a guy in his thirties, people don't change easily at that age. And we've seen he could flirt, joke and live a normal life after what he had done in Ishbal, if Envy's death would change him that would mean Ishvalans were worse trash to him than Envy, i.e. he was SOF** himself and a racist.

4) To Riza torturing Envy was OK (she let Mustang burn Envy's eyes, tongue, etc.) but killing him no. She wanted to kill him herself though.

5) In the anime Mustang knew exactly when Envy would be left with one life and even made a special combo with his last attack and took a while with it, groaning as if he wanted to take a dump. Last explosion also seemed bigger then previous ones (again suggesting he knew it would be enough). That didn't make sense at all. Nice Bones. You've managed to screw up a story that was already screwed up beyond saving. That's an achievement.

6) Envy not killing Riza the first time they've met in the tunnels was strange. She loved to kill people in that manner but somehow it made sense to her to go with Riza and wait until they've met Mustang? We've seen that Mustang was capable of doing very small burns so he could probably neutralize Envy before she could do anything once they've met (and it was rather inevitable). And if she wanted to have Riza as a hostage it would be easier to her to absorb her (and not killing her by the way) thus preventing Roy from attacking (just like she did with Ed in ch. 52).

4/10 for the episode, and it's me being generous and taking into account Arakawa having a kid and all.
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Old 2010-04-26, 08:17   Link #44
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I can't believe he hadn't already won you over during the Maria Ross subplot. His "Yo, Hagane no..." still chills me, even knowing what was really going on well before the start of this series. ^_^ Excellent voice actors are excellent voice actors, and Miki has always been one. He may have had big shoes to fill on an iconic character and portrayal, but he's certainly made the character his own... The better writing and characterization of this series (and by extension the latter parts of the manga) certainly haven't hurt... ^_^
Oh he'd already won me over, but this was just icing on the cake. I began to accept him as soon as Hughes' funeral, where his performance was even superior to Ohkawa's and every line of his was completely and wonderfully heart wrenching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
blah blah blah blah blah
Spoiler:


Seriously dude, 2009 called, and they say they're sick of you and that silly little argument of yours, so feel free to join us in the year of 2010 anytime.
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Old 2010-04-26, 08:32   Link #45
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Gooral, one thing you're missing on your first point is the situation. In Ishbal, Roy was part of the military. He was ordered to kill the innocents. His lack of emotion was an emotion suppression, similar to somebody who doesn't cry at a funeral. This is a stark contrast to Kimblee, who simply enjoyed killing anyone he could. With Envy, this was nothing but Mustang's desire for revenge. Sure, it had implications for the entire nation, but Mustang obviously didn't want Envy dead to help save the nation. He wanted her dead so as to avenge the death of his friend.
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Old 2010-04-26, 08:37   Link #46
Arabesque
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Firstly, Olivier annoyed me as always acting all tough and all. The whole "you're under my command now" and soldiers instantly listening to her was so unconvincing that I can't believe Arakawa did that. "Defend yourselves and don't be killed". No s*it Sherlock. And I should start with the fact they didn't shoot her on sight (even though they were ordered to) but waited until she could talk to them and until dolls came.
I can appreciate that you have a problem with her attitude, but come on, the soldiers found themselves in an impossible situation and she was the only one who appeared to know what she's doing. Of course they were going to follow her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Secondly, the thing with Roy was utterly stupid. From berserk mode Roy went to hugging everyone, saying that shrimp make him realize his mistake (yeah, right...), etc. That was completely out of his character.
He wasn't ''hugging'' anyone, everyone made him realise that his behavior as someone who was aiming for the top was unacceptable. What was really OOC was when he started talking down to Envy and saying ''I'll give him the worst death imaginable''.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
1) Roy killed dozens of innocent people (and who knows if not hundreds, with his destructive power I wouldn't be surprised), woman and children also (whether directly or not, doesn't matter) as well as Ishbalans that only defended themselves from aggressors and had no chance against Amestris' superior power (and he knew it). He didn't kill Envy however, because it was, eh... wrong?! So mass murderer, trash and war criminal in one person was of more worth than dozens of Ishbalans? It certainly looks that way. Mustang literally made people s*it themselves and he didn't even budge then but continued to do a human barbecue. There was no sign of emotion when he fried people, even the ones that had no strength to fight back. What's more a while later he cheerfully talked with Hughes! Years later he flirted with girls and acted casually as if nothing happened, he wasn't a psycho and didn't kill people randomly. Why would killing Envy change him? Let's be serious here.
Yeah, your twisting things here. Roy didn't take pleasure in doing those things, he was fighting for his country (and even after doing all of that, he decided to change it so such conflicts won't happen again). He put on the womanizer persona to help him with his undercover work and plans. Him killing Envy would make him the thing he was fighting to change i.e. he was going to become a homicidal monster, just like what Scar was doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
2) I don't know what Roy was waiting for with killing Envy. Before Riza or Ed could do anything he would have already burned him. He also should have done that before Riza put a gun into his head, it looked like he was waiting for her to do it. He also could kill Envy without hurting Ed (he would only warm up his automail a little).
...because he wanted to ridicule him some more? Roy was ''enjoying'' seeing Envy in that state, and he wanted to make him suffer more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
3) Scar was preaching him, now that's a good one. He and Scar are completely different and their revenge was on a different scale too. Scar hated (and still hates but he is over with killing) ALL Amestrians. Whether they were doctors (that saved his brethren lives) or children (Ed, Al) it didn't make a difference to him. His desire for revenge had no end since there were many Ishbalan murderers. Mustang however hated only ONE person. Chain of hatred would end where it started with one death. He would kill Envy and it would be THE END. And no, I won't believe that it could change him in any way. If he wasn't changed for worse after killing innocent PEOPLE (not some worms, mass murderes at that) he would most certainly not be changed by killing the biggest son-of-a-**ore that existed. He was a guy in his thirties, people don't change easily at that age. And we've seen he could flirt, joke and live a normal life after what he had done in Ishbal, if Envy's death would change him that would mean Ishvalans were worse trash to him than Envy, i.e. he was SOF** himself and a racist.
All throughout FMA, the act of vengeance has been taken as being wrong with out discrimination. This is not about ''Envy was better than all of the people Roy killed'' but about Roy having sworn to change the country after seeing what happened during the war, and him killing Envy in that manner would make him no better than Scar or Bradley.
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
4) To Riza torturing Envy was OK (she let Mustang burn Envy's eyes, tongue, etc.) but killing him no. She wanted to kill him herself though.
Back then in front of the entrance Mustang was angry, but he didn't enter into the state where he became bloodthirsty and started torturing him for the hell of it. And she wanted to finish the job herself because Roy was on the verge of becoming completely homicidal. She was against him killing Envy because he wasn't himself at that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
6) Envy not killing Riza the first time they've met in the tunnels was strange.
Envy style is to torment people. He even said how he wanted to use her beaten up corpus to tick Roy even more. When it comes down to it, he will go with the option that will damage his enemy emotionally.
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Old 2010-04-26, 08:41   Link #47
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People, you really shouldn't bother. He already made that argument in the Manga thread a whole year ago and Kirarakim, Sannom and Terrestrial Dream already proved how silly it is and what little grasp on FMA's story and characters he has then, yet he never listened to reason. Seeing as he still hasn't gotten over it after 356~ days it's quite obvious that this time won't be any different.
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Old 2010-04-26, 09:12   Link #48
Gooral
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Originally Posted by Kristen View Post
Gooral, one thing you're missing on your first point is the situation. In Ishbal, Roy was part of the military. He was ordered to kill the innocents. His lack of emotion was an emotion suppression, similar to somebody who doesn't cry at a funeral. This is a stark contrast to Kimblee, who simply enjoyed killing anyone he could. With Envy, this was nothing but Mustang's desire for revenge. Sure, it had implications for the entire nation, but Mustang obviously didn't want Envy dead to help save the nation. He wanted her dead so as to avenge the death of his friend.
Doesn't matter that he was in the military. He had a choice but he decided to kill innocent people for money and to not be put on trial for disobeying orders. He also had an ambition to become a head of his country and making barbecue of people was needed for this. In my eyes it was many times worse than what he would have done to Envy. Even if he wanted to kill her out of revenge only (which I doubt but let's assume you're right) it wouldn't change much. Once Envy would be dead his desire for revenge would disappear, why wouldn't it? He kills her and goes along with his life. He didn't become a bad person aftet massacring people that only defended themselves from aggressors (in fact he probably changed for better) but he would change if he killed Envy? Come on, let's be serious here.

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Yeah, your twisting things here. Roy didn't take pleasure in doing those things, he was fighting for his country (and even after doing all of that, he decided to change it so such conflicts won't happen again). He put on the womanizer persona to help him with his undercover work and plans. Him killing Envy would make him the thing he was fighting to change i.e. he was going to become a homicidal monster, just like what Scar was doing.
You're forgetting one thing. His country was the aggressor, they've started the war. Ishbalans were only trying to defend themselves and wanted to free themselves from Amestris' influence. So yeah, he was fighting for his country but his country ordered him to wipe out all Ishbalan's. That doesn't justify it. In short you're saying that killing is justified unless you want to do it because of desire to avenge someone, lol. Seriously guys, do you honestly think that mass murder is OK if it was ordered but killing a worm is not if it was done because of revenge?

Quote:
...because he wanted to ridicule him some more? Roy was ''enjoying'' seeing Envy in that state, and he wanted to make him suffer more.
Well, once Riza butted in the good part was over. He had no reason to torture him more. And once Ed took Envy he could have fried worm without injuring Ed.

Quote:
All throughout FMA, the act of vengeance has been taken as being wrong with out discrimination. This is not about ''Envy was better than all of the people Roy killed'' but about Roy having sworn to change the country after seeing what happened during the war, and him killing Envy in that manner would make him no better than Scar or Bradley.
Yes, I agree and I just don't like it. Arakawa forcefully imposes her opinion on us and what she writes is completely naive. It has a moral value and it's good since it is manga for children but is stupid IMO. People don't change that easily, and they become immune to many things (such as killing). Since Mustang killed lots of people and didn't become a bad person, killing Envy would not affect him, why should it? And Scar as I've written in my earlier post is an entirely different subject. I don't understand why you've mentioned Bradley though, what/who he wanted to avenge? Why would he be no better than him? He would only kill a mass murderer, the end.

Quote:
And she wanted to finish the job herself because Roy was on the verge of becoming completely homicidal. She was against him killing Envy because he wasn't himself at that point.
So he was homicidal, what about it? It would end with Envy's death. And I would say that torturing by Roy and killing by Riza isn't any better than torturing and killing by Roy alone.

Quote:
Envy style is to torment people. He even said how he wanted to use her beaten up corpus to tick Roy even more. When it comes down to it, he will go with the option that will damage his enemy emotionally.
If he wanted to torment Roy he would have done much better job if he took her hostage (or done sth worse but that's manga for children so I'll stop here) and either used his superior power and had her clinched to himself while staying in human form (she would act as a shield) or absorb her.

@Endless Twilight
Neither you nor anyone else did counter my arguments, only deflected them (and it basically came to one argument - "killing in revenge would change Roy so he had to be stopped", lol). I would give you bad reputation for spamming but unfortunately I would have to spread some before I do it again. Hope someone else will after he reads your yapping.
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Old 2010-04-26, 09:31   Link #49
Vicious108
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Oh no, not bad reputation! Please, anything but that!

And about your 'arguments', if you can even call them that... Nevermind the fact that they're based on huge misconceptions of the characters, they're also based on the conviction that you are able to somehow predict the future and know exactly what would have happened to Roy had he gone ahead and satisfied his lust for revenge.

There's really not much I can say to 'counter' that I suppose, other than the fact that I wish you'd let me borrow your time machine, since seeing all of the possible futures for the characters would be pretty neat.
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Old 2010-04-26, 09:39   Link #50
Gooral
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Said the person that just gave me bad rep .

No. It's the opposite of what you've said. You (and some other people too) are acting as if you were alpha and omega and know what would become of Roy once he killed Envy and don't have arguments that support that. You're saying he would change and become like Scar or worse. I have an analogous situation where Roy killed lots of people and wasn't bothered by it. You can't even answer my question, why would Envy's death bother Roy more than him killing dozens of innocent people?
What's more Scar somehow changed for the better so what makes you think that Mustang would not? And let me remind you that Scar killed not one but several people out of his revenge. PEOPLE not worms (unless you;re saying that Envy was a human). Mustang wouldn't even kill his own species but some animal that had to be put down anyway.
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Old 2010-04-26, 09:46   Link #51
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One thing about the military in general.
First a soldier cannot resign from duties during a state emergency.
Disobeying an order during a state emergency is a court martial offense where trial will be swift and merciless usually ending up facing a firing squad especially in a military state like Amestris.
Signing up to the military is not the smartest thing in a country like Amestris but a person with ambitions has no other options but to join since there was no hope to make it to the top without doing so. No chance of a peaceful citizen up-rise either since the military is ruling the state.

Roy was simply stuck between a rock and a hard spot and merely trying to do his best in worst of time.
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Old 2010-04-26, 09:53   Link #52
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It's better if thousands of people die then me, right? I can give a hand in a genocide if I'm being ordered to, right?

I know soldier cannot resign and I know that trial would wait for him. The problem was it was clear who was aggressor and who was a victim here. Who had superior power and who didn't stand a chance. Roy was kicking the lying (on the ground). And Alex Armstrong somehow survived after disobeying orders. He even became a major.

I was only saying that regardless of the reasons Mustang killed innocent people but didn't become a bad person. making excuses doesn't justify what he did.
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Old 2010-04-26, 10:23   Link #53
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It makes me sad that there actually are people who do not understand the awesomeness of this chapter. I also thought that people older than 20 wouldn't be able to write such crap.
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Old 2010-04-26, 10:24   Link #54
Vicious108
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Said the person that just gave me bad rep .

No. It's the opposite of what you've said. You (and some other people too) are acting as if you were alpha and omega and know what would become of Roy once he killed Envy and don't have arguments that support that. You're saying he would change and become like Scar or worse. I have an analogous situation where Roy killed lots of people and wasn't bothered by it. You can't even answer my question, why would Envy's death bother Roy more than him killing dozens of innocent people?
What's more Scar somehow changed for the better so what makes you think that Mustang would not? And let me remind you that Scar killed not one but several people out of his revenge. PEOPLE not worms (unless you;re saying that Envy was a human). Mustang wouldn't even kill his own species but some animal that had to be put down anyway.
Nope. I've never given bad reputation to anyone ever, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time giving you the honor of being the first one. Obviously someone else out there can also see that you're full of it and didn't like it.

And it's easy to see why, this post of yours alone was worth a thousand facepalms.

- You say I act as if I were alpha and omega when I haven't even bothered to express my opinion on the matter.
- You actually think Roy wasn't bothered by the people he killed in Ishval. Haha oh wow, and you want people to take you seriously? Yeah man it's not like his entire goal as a human being revolves around his guilt or anything!
- You say Scar changed for the better after becoming obsessed with revenge. Yeah, he did eventually. Only it took him YEARS UPON YEARS of miserable rage and corruption of his very soul.
- You don't consider Envy a sentient being because of his true form's appearance. To quote duckroll from last year's discussion, obviously the day an intelligent alien race makes contact with Earth we should all wipe them out mercilessly because they're not humanoid? Yeah that would make sense.

Now why would I bother argueing with a person like that, who to top it all off completely lacks the willingness to listen to reason and the maturity to admit that they just might be wrong?

Yeah, sorry, not worth it. The only reason I intervened was to prevent fellow actual knowledgeable FMA fans from wasting their time on someone that was already proven wrong in the Manga thread an entire year ago.

Last edited by Vicious108; 2010-04-26 at 17:53.
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Old 2010-04-26, 11:04   Link #55
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@Endless
-Yes you did express your opinion, but not now, earlier.
-I didn't write that Roy wasn't bothered by killing Ishbalans but that he did it with a straight face and without mercy. Don't put words into my mouth. Whether he regretted it or not is beyond the point, he killed every citizen of Ishval he encountered without exception. I also wrote that he didn't become a bad person because of it. Learn to read with comprehension.
-No, it didn't take years. For how long was he going and killing alchemists? Not long. Including the time when he wasn't killing them is stupid because the same can be applied for Mustang. He was burning with desire for revenge the moment Hughes was killed. Actual rage lasted only few minutes, in Scar's case it was weeks if not months.
-As for Envy, I wasn't saying only that. I've also mentioned that he was mass murderer and war criminal, haven't I? Again, learn to read with comprehension.

And unfortunately, you failed to prove me wrong. Learn to read with comprehension first, then we can discuss.
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Old 2010-04-26, 11:26   Link #56
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I know each person is entitled to their opinion but I actually loved this episode. I really think this is one of the best episodes in the anime so many incredible moments, and some of them even better than in the manga.

Episode 54

Beyond the ranging Fire

Spoiler for saving space:
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Old 2010-04-26, 11:29   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Doesn't matter that he was in the military. He had a choice but he decided to kill innocent people for money and to not be put on trial for disobeying orders. He also had an ambition to become a head of his country and making barbecue of people was needed for this. In my eyes it was many times worse than what he would have done to Envy. Even if he wanted to kill her out of revenge only (which I doubt but let's assume you're right) it wouldn't change much. Once Envy would be dead his desire for revenge would disappear, why wouldn't it? He kills her and goes along with his life. He didn't become a bad person aftet massacring people that only defended themselves from aggressors (in fact he probably changed for better) but he would change if he killed Envy? Come on, let's be serious here.
This choice is very similar to what was seen a lot after World War II, an after a lot of other atrocities in history. People used the defense of "obeying orders" to their defense. Because in war, that's what you're trained to do. Obey your superiors, no matter what you personally feel, because there may be a much deeper reason for something.
With Envy, however, there was no order from his superiors. There was no thoughts of saving the country. His face showed nothing but anger and hatred. He simply wanted to take his revenge on her. By stopping him, they stopped him from losing himself to his anger. They stopped him from killing someone when he had a choice, unlike the military, where you do what your superiors command.
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Old 2010-04-26, 12:19   Link #58
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Gooral, I respect your opinion - and for that matter, anyone who has different or equal opinions -, I would just like to ask you if you thought about the situation this way:
Roy did have a choice at the Ishval war - kill or not kill. But, what he really wanted to do was change the military and the way the government was, and that would require him being at the top of everything. To get there, he first needed to gather information on how things worked, so he could find a way to change everything, since no one else (at least apparently) was doing anything to change the country and it's ways. He did what he was ordered so he could stay in the military - maybe even be promoted - and get the knowledge he needed to do what he is trying to do at the moment: change the country, save future lives both of Amestris and other countries that the current government would try to overpower. To do what no one else seemed willing to do, he decided it would be better to kill a few thousands in order to be able to save much more - this is what I believe the character thought and is what Arakawa tried to convey.
The point here would be almost like the point made by Alan Moore with Ozymandias in the Watchmen novel - sacrificing a few to save many, since if nobody did anything, everyone would die - if I am seriously wrong about the novel, someone please correct me.

That was Roy's objective, and what gave him the steady head to do what he did at Ishval - I believe.
Here, with Envy, at that moment, he didn't have any rational reason to kill him, except satisfy his desire of revenge. I believe he wasn't thinking "Envy, if I don't kill him, will go out there and kill many more", or trying to save anyone. He looked as if all he wanted was to make himself feel better - and this is not something a selfless, rational, coherent and trustworthy ruler/president should do. Caligula is an example - he killed people just for the heck of it, because he wanted to. The problem here is that Roy was doing something that neither he nor Riza, Ed, Hughes - and everyone else who backed him up untill now - agreed with, but he was overpowered by his emotions (again, a flaw when making decisions involving many people) and if it wasn't for Riza and Ed (Scar to a lesser degree, I think), he would have fully turned into a hypocrite that would be unworthy of ruling the country in the eyes of those who backed him up untill now - including himself. This would result in loss of trust in him, and all that they are currently fighting for - to change the country - would be useless, since the person they wanted leading the country is unworthy of such a position, as he would be unstable.

So, I believe this is the reason that the scene is coherent, and in my opinion, very well made. If you have thought about this point before, I am sorry for using a few minutes of your time. Again, I have no problem if you disagree
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Old 2010-04-26, 12:28   Link #59
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
It was cool that they had Roy explode on Envy like that and kill him like 10 times in a few seconds. In the manga it did feel like Envy was reduced to fetus form a little too quickly after all the philosopher's stones he acquired from the clones.
That's where this episode surpasses the manga for me. It did a better job at portraying Roy's hatred/anger and why it was so wrong for him to kill Envy, though it looks like some people still don't see it. I also loved the part when Mustang stared long and hard at Envy, who was both terrified of what was going to happen to him and pissed at the way Mustang looked down on him. The facial expressions in this episode were just perfect. And great voice acting and music once again.

Can't wait for the next episode. The manliness will be off the charts !
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Old 2010-04-26, 12:29   Link #60
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 25
Heh. 'k, speaking on the Roy/revenge thing, it's actually kinda weird for me. I remember I was pretty contemptuous of how that chapter turned out back when I first read it, and felt a similar incredulity over the overdramatized 'wrongness' of Roy killing Envy and the manga's moral preachiness about revenge. I wasn't actually expecting to like this episode, but somehow, maybe because I knew it was coming, I didn't really mind it this time. The conflict between Roy's destructive emotions and Ed, Riza, and Scar all rallying to hold him back still isn't one of the high points to me of this series, but at least I think I've accepted that these are the author's intentions and that they are significant to the story.

Gooral, here is my understanding of what's 'bad' about Roy killing envy. You're right, I think the civilians he killed in Ishval were a thousand times a more monstrous crime than him killing Envy would have been. However, the difference here would have been: in Ishval, killing civilians filled Roy with revulsion and self-loathing. With Envy, Roy would only have felt satisfaction--even if only satisfaction for killing a mass murderer who threatened the fate of his country, it would be the same satisfaction that Kimblee described back in the Ishval arc about one's superiority over another. And the point is, it's not that Roy would change immediately after. Not at all. I don't buy at all the moralizing tripe about becoming 'no better than Wrath or Envy', who, despite it all, I nevertheless managed to find sympathy for at the end as a viewer. The danger lies in if Roy ever loses anything else--Riza, or any other of the prized subordinates Roy obviously put a lot of his heart in. At those times, consumed by grief, Roy would be liable to lured by the satisfaction of revenge again. As someone blindly pursuing that, there would be no way for him to properly lead a country--nor would he deserve to, if only because, at the very least, his heart wouldn't be in it.

Er, I think in the above I've over-sentimentalized a number of things. A more precise counter-argument follows:

Roy's revenge might be over the moment he finishes Envy. However, you won't disagree that Roy is unfit to be a leader while he is satisfying his thirst for vengeance against er, 'her', right? To take it a step further--this whole time, while Roy was chasing after Hughes' murderer, a part of him inside had festered that cared only about that vengeance, the fate of the country be damned (per his suicidal determination this episode), right?

As someone who aims to be a leader, and as someone for whom many things are precious, Roy might well lose another 'Hughes' sometime in the future. If, as he did now, he went on a murderous rampage, or were preoccupied by chasing after and finding the murderer(s?), what would happen to the leadership of the country? What if his enemies, seeing that, targeted his valued subordinates directly? That is the "country lead by a blahblahblah" (I forget, someone quote it for me) that Scar was talking about.

I think having all of Ed, Riza, and Scar show up, and Roy going all 'Graaah!' and being willing to kill himself, was a tad overdramatic. But presuming we're attached to idea of Roy as a leader and visionary, I think this chapter/episode is decent enough in its conclusions. It makes sense. It's not about revenge being wrong as a person, it's about revenge being wrong for someone aiming to rule for the sake of others.
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Kill la Kill 75/5 :: Sakura Trick 100/5 :: Saki Zenkoku-hen 100/5 :: HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Mushishi OVA 100/5
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God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Great shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-04-26 at 12:41.
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