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Old 2010-04-27, 16:06   Link #6981
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Keep in mind that nobody's life is worth anything. Since your death won't make a difference in this world, why not step in with your worthless life and do something to change that situation?
I know you have a completely pessimistic view on humanity on the whole and wouldn't think twice about taking another life if you felt you 'needed' to, but lives are worth plently.
It makes a difference to the people who you have bonds with, who you get on with, who you love and vice versa.
When a person dies, it leaves an irresplacable vaccum that'll never be filled.

Even the death of someone who is hated has some kinda benefit, means a person can get on with whatever they wanna achieve (see tyrants of history being overthrown), but there's value in life.
It's all too precious and all too fleeting and finite in our present states, of course, if a person lives in relative comfort as a lot of us here do, then cherishing it is to be highly unlikely, sadly...

It's just unfortunate when a person hasn't experienced pleasant situations to see their worth or when all they know is pain and hatred.
(Then again, there are plently of stories of those who should have died/commited suicide or go on a school shooting spree who fight and better themselves for something semi decent)
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Old 2010-04-27, 21:17   Link #6982
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
I know you have a completely pessimistic view on humanity on the whole and wouldn't think twice about taking another life if you felt you 'needed' to, but lives are worth plently.
It makes a difference to the people who you have bonds with, who you get on with, who you love and vice versa.
When a person dies, it leaves an irresplacable vaccum that'll never be filled.
Logically speaking, no, but from a humane perspective, yes. The world birth outrates the mortality rate, but the chances of finding the same person is small. At that very second if someone else is born, he/she may not grow to become a good samaritan like that guy.

But given the fact how fast paced the world runs today, everything is boiled down to numbers and more numbers, that another dead man on the street just becomes :

Oh it is another dead person. Lalala~

It is more about adapting to society by adapting to the "dog-eat-dog" thinking of the rest, so as to "fit in" and avoid being seen as a gullible "idealistic carebear who knows nothing about the social norms". But I do keep a minimal of my conscience to avoid ending up like the rest of the losers.

Quote:
Even the death of someone who is hated has some kinda benefit, means a person can get on with whatever they wanna achieve (see tyrants of history being overthrown), but there's value in life.
It's all too precious and all too fleeting and finite in our present states, of course, if a person lives in relative comfort as a lot of us here do, then cherishing it is to be highly unlikely, sadly...

It's just unfortunate when a person hasn't experienced pleasant situations to see their worth or when all they know is pain and hatred.
(Then again, there are plently of stories of those who should have died/commited suicide or go on a school shooting spree who fight and better themselves for something semi decent)
I believe you do have a point there, but it is just barely pathetic that people would value their lives above others in a survivalist mentality rather than a humane mentality. What reminders that show that it will come back to us if we demonstrate this on others, and urged us to take a different outlook to life, are just for naught.

The survivalist mentality to avoid trouble or ruination of personal image came back to us in the form of occurences like the Columbine and Virginia, where people take the idea of "to live, you have to fight" to the literal extreme.

As sure as you don't know the person, why not call 911 rather than taking a photo with that camera phone? I don't see how one can get into trouble calling 911 for aid and assistance.
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Old 2010-04-27, 23:33   Link #6983
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I worry about the legal consequences of a failed CPR. And the health consequences of using mouth to mouth on a sick guy.
I worry too, given how sue happy people are. But if we let every potential lawsuit interfere with the choice to act we'd never get anywhere. There are health consequences but there are devices to assist with that, and sick or injured people collapsing in public already create issues of contamination.

Quote:
The author doesn't claim to be superhuman. He doesn't pretend his monkeysphere is any bigger than anyone's.
Agreed. I wasn't trying to paint him in any bad light, just pointing out that his entire theory is written from the same perspective he chooses to point out.
Quote:
No doubt. But that doesn't contradict the article, which does acknowledge you can be nice to people outside your monkeysphere. It just isn't quite the same. I'd also like to note that someone you see, close up, isn't that distant in monkeysphere terms. Sure, he isn't your brother. But he isn't a faceless idiot on the internet posting an article supporting the opposite of whatever political opinion you happen to hold, either.
People are only faceless because we let them be so. It's impossible for any human to remember every name and face, but we can choose to apply a better universal attitude towards others that will also impact us in return. Pay it forward, one good deed deserves another, etc.

For someone like me, who has spent years in customer service....I've never once treated any customer as less than human unless they truly did something that removed all doubt that they had no respect in kind . Even customers that really pushed the line got a smile and the best possible service I could provide. You'd be surprised at how many people are irate that the system simply doesn't care, but by finding someone who treats them as a person instead of just a faceless customer their whole attitude changes and they become much more pleasant and it's easier to find a satisfactory resolution.

My attitude works in reverse as well. When dealing with customer service I put myself in their shoes and show patience, use polite words and manners, and try to be as concise as possible with my problem. It doesn't do much good to call up and scream into the phone at some person getting paid 8 bucks an hour.

All I'm really saying is that even if you don't really know a person, they'll be much more inclined to give you the respect and compassion of a human being when you treat them like one too. You may care more on a personal level (following the monkeysphere theory), but that doesn't mean you should limit your caring to just the bubble simply because the rest are faceless.

Maybe I'm just naive. *shrug*

Quote:
Not so thankful she called 911, apparently. Whatever happened to her?
Well, you got me there. More of the story was focused on the homeless man rather than the person who got away, so it's impossible to know what she did after escaping. Perhaps she was in shock, perhaps she thought he was fine, perhaps she was still in flight mode....it's unknown from the information presented from a small news blurb and one video.
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Old 2010-04-28, 00:34   Link #6984
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
All I'm really saying is that even if you don't really know a person, they'll be much more inclined to give you the respect and compassion of a human being when you treat them like one too. You may care more on a personal level (following the monkeysphere theory), but that doesn't mean you should limit your caring to just the bubble simply because the rest are faceless.
Exactly. To be a better person means to care for your fellow man, basically. People want to be happy, and those who are happy generally are that way because of the impact that other people's collective kindness has on their lives. The philosophy of virtue is one of the most important things for humanity's well-being, which is made by individuals. Those individuals who do not care about helping those in need or being kind to them are detrimental to society and therefore detrimental to everyone. Thus, as a part of society, it is better for each individual to act with virtue.

Of course, this should be obvious. People who think to be virtuous is naive are just stupid or materialistic. Virtue is the greatest human rationality.
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Old 2010-04-28, 01:00   Link #6985
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I saw this new story yesterday on CNN, where some retarded psychologist tried to explain how society is so desensitized to violence because of games and movies that people don't know how to react when it happens in real life. Bull crap...it's just a lack of knowledge of what to do in fucked up situations. Did you know that one of the reasons why heart attacks are so fatal is because most bystanders don't know CPR? The survival rate for heart attack victims who receive CPR while paramedics are en route versus those who gawk is significant.

Sorry, not everyone is so uncaring. If I had seen that man on the street, I would have called 911 as soon as possible.
Please send me your contact details. If and when I do take charge of conducting a social experiment that will likely emotionally scar you for life and probably give you grounds to sue me for unethical research methods, I will make sure to call you up and ask for your interest in being a participant.

I'm actually not too surprised at this latest case of apathy from a group of people actually; the bystander effect has been well known and extensively studied in the field of social psychology ever since as far back as 1964; this, really, is just the latest case of that.

Therefore, I would contradict Solace's argument that the reason heart attacks are so often fatal is because bystanders don't know CPR; I would say it's more likely that a group of people would look at each other and gauge the necessity of action from each other's behaviour; because everyone ends up doing the same thing i.e. nothing, no one will take the initiative.

An alternative reason would be that the individuals in the same group of people all assume that someone else is going to or has already intervened, and thus refraining themselves from intervening. This is especially so if they believe that for example, someone else has already called the police, or someone else is a doctor and can provide superior assistance to themselves, etc. etc., which means they might be offering unwanted assistance.

I'll not be so quick to condemn the people in the video (except perhaps the camphone kid, and even then....). It's an unfortunate effect of our psychological makeup, and one which thankfully can be superseded; by someone who is aware of this psychological effect, and can overcome it by taking the initative to help the person, and asking others to assist however they can (e.g. ask that guy over that to call the cops, ask if anyone in the group's a doctor or nurse, etc. etc.).
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Old 2010-04-28, 03:07   Link #6986
aohige
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I would think the "bystander effect" the shrink mentioned on the clip has nothing to do with this particular case, as there were no crowds of people around the man dying.
All the people shown were individuals that passed by and did nothing, not gawk at the situation from a crowd.

So yes, it is directly a morality issue of the passerbys.
Especially the man who simply took pictures on his cell phone and walked off without calling 911 with that very phone he just used.
That is a disgusting behavior, and I can't imagine what is going on through that young man's head.
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Old 2010-04-28, 03:43   Link #6987
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I would think the "bystander effect" the shrink mentioned on the clip has nothing to do with this particular case, as there were no crowds of people around the man dying.
All the people shown were individuals that passed by and did nothing, not gawk at the situation from a crowd.

So yes, it is directly a morality issue of the passerbys.
Especially the man who simply took pictures on his cell phone and walked off without calling 911 with that very phone he just used.
That is a disgusting behavior, and I can't imagine what is going on through that young man's head.
It doesn't have to be a crowd milling around the guy, dude. As long as people are aware there are others in the vicinity, the bystander effect does take effect as well. This has been exhibited many times in controlled experiments, in situations where participants are aware of the presence of others even if they weren't physically in a group (Darley and Latane, 1968).

In the case of this clip, we only see what the video camera saw. And suffice to say, the field of view of that camera is rather....limited.

* Darley, J. M. & Latané, B. (1968). Bystander intervention in emergencies: Diffusion of responsibility. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 8, 377-383.
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Old 2010-04-28, 06:00   Link #6988
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
It doesn't have to be a crowd milling around the guy, dude. As long as people are aware there are others in the vicinity, the bystander effect does take effect as well. This has been exhibited many times in controlled experiments, in situations where participants are aware of the presence of others even if they weren't physically in a group (Darley and Latane, 1968).

In the case of this clip, we only see what the video camera saw. And suffice to say, the field of view of that camera is rather....limited.

* Darley, J. M. & Latané, B. (1968). Bystander intervention in emergencies: Diffusion of responsibility. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 8, 377-383.
There might be an element of that effect in place, namely : "someone else will do it" mentality.

Happening in NYC where there is a appreciable population, it could still kick in that kind of thinking.

Anyway :

Greece Cut to Junk at S&P as Contagion Spreads

Quote:
April 27 (Bloomberg) -- Greece’s credit rating was cut three steps to junk by Standard and Poor’s, the first time a euro member has lost its investment grade since the currency’s 1999 debut. The euro weakened and stock markets throughout the region plunged.

Greece was lowered to BB+ from BBB+ by S&P, which also warned that bondholders could recover as little as 30 percent of their initial investment if the country restructures its debt. The move, which puts Greek debt on a par with bonds issued by Azerbaijan and Egypt, came minutes after the rating company reduced Portugal by two steps to A- from A+.

The turmoil comes as European Union policy makers struggle to agree on measures to ease the panic over swelling budget deficits. Leaders of the 16 euro nations may hold a summit after the Greek government’s decision last week to tap a 45 billion- euro ($60 billion) emergency-aid package failed to reassure investors, a European diplomat and Spanish official said.

“The markets are demanding their pound of flesh and want everything to be signed, sealed and delivered as of yesterday,” said David Owen, chief European financial economist at Jefferies International Ltd. in London.

The euro fell 1.3 percent to $1.3215 as of 2:58 p.m. in New York. The Stoxx Europe 600 Index slid 3.1 percent to 261.65 points.


The spread on Greek 10-year bonds over German counterparts widened 23 basis points to 675 basis points, the highest since at least 1998, as investors increased bets that Greece will restructure its debt. The Portuguese spread jumped 59 basis points to 277 basis points, and the Spanish spread rose 12 basis points to 113.

“This is no longer a problem about Greece or Portugal, but about the euro system,” Eric Fine, who manages Van’s Eck’s G- 175 Strategies emerging-market hedge fund. “My concern is the risk of coordination failure. Policy makers need to get ahead of the curve.”

The crisis worsened this week as German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government delays a decision on whether to release funds for a Greek rescue. Merkel, who faces an election in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia on May 9, said yesterday that Greece “must do its homework” before getting aid.

European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet, who is in Chicago today and declined to comment on the downgrades, travels to Berlin tomorrow to brief German lawmakers on Greece’s deficit-cutting plans. The country is struggling to convince investors it can push its deficit below the EU’s limit of 3 percent of gross domestic product from 13.6 percent last year.

“No one in Europe is suggesting” that “the total amount of financing on the table is going to cover all of Greece’s borrowing needs” over the next three years, said David Beers, Global Head of Sovereign and International Public Finance Ratings, at S&P today.

Greek bonds are still eligible as collateral at the ECB, as long as the other two rating companies don’t follow suit. Moody’s Investors Service rates Greece A3 and Fitch Ratings BBB-.

The EU’s inability to contain the Greek crisis is sparking concern that other countries will have to fend for themselves and will struggle to win support from European parliaments. Portugal’s PSI-20 benchmark dropped 5.4 percent today, the most since the aftermath of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.’s collapse. Spain’s IBEX 35 Index dropped 4.2 percent.

“There is a clear risk that contagion pressures might intensify in the coming months, perhaps after a brief respite immediately after the Greek package is finalized and money starts being disbursed,” said Marco Annunziata, chief European economist at UniCredit Group in London.

Merkel said yesterday she expects a German decision in “days.” Greece faces 8.5 billion euros of bonds maturing in May, with the first redemption due May 19.

Portuguese Finance Minister Fernando Teixeira dos Santos said today his government needs to react to “attacks by markets” and will do what’s needed to reduce its deficit.

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou asked for emergency cash from the EU and International Monetary Fund last week to avoid defaulting on its debt. Investors in Greek bonds may get back between 30 percent and 50 percent of the value of their holdings should the government default or restructure its debt, said S&P.

“The financial package has clearly not eased market concerns,” said Colin Ellis, European economist at Daiwa Capital Europe Ltd. in London. The Greek downgrade “together with Portugal and the widening of spreads means that other euro- area countries appear to be sliding to a similar fate.”
So.......is the Euro collapsing? I am tired of people blaming the devaluation of Euro and the worsening of the currency crisis on solely Greece.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-04-28 at 06:26.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:24   Link #6989
Tsuyoshi
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Give Solace a medal!

Anyways, I think that as many advancements society has made throughout its history, especially 20th century history, a lot of people's mentalities are stuck in the pre-historic era wherein you live by the philosophy to "Live and let Die." I find this especially common among people who have more to lose. Money, fame, power, influence, posessions, people value their lives according to how much they own, not by who they are as people. That's where the survivalist mentality comes from, and that's how people likely thought in the beginning of mankind. Our posessions have increased, both in quantity and quality, but how we treat what we have hasn't changed at all.

The fact of the matter is that people don't realize we all walk on the same earth, all of us are human beings. What a lot of people don't understand is that life isn't valued by what we have, but who we are as men. It's not all about owning a Mercedes, or having a 3 floor villa, but it's about who would care if you died? By this, I don't mean "how many people would care?" An entire population made of millions of people would care, but who are those people to you compared to your family? Why would they care? Do they care because you were good to them and they mourn you because you will be missed, or will they care because now they can live happier that you're gone because of all the things you did to them? That's what defines how much you're worth as a human being.

Now the problem with people not caring about a guy who'se obviously dying on the street is because those people will think that it's not their problem, they have better things to do and this life isn't as much worth as mine. How do you know that? How do you know that, as a human being, he is not as worth as you? Do you know him? Who are you to decide these things? Would you think it is right for them not to help you if you were the one in his death throes out on the street? Do you know if he has family, friends? Is it right to just assume that a homeless man has no family? You don't know that, you can't know unless you ask, and they only way to do that? Save him. Do the right thing and call 911. Regardless of legal implications, it is humane to help. He is another human being living the same world, going through the same hardships you, as a human, are going through in this plane of existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So.......is the Euro collapsing? I am tired of people blaming the devaluation of Euro and the worsening of the currency crisis on solely Greece.
Greece or no Greece, something like this was bound to happen eventually. I've said this before, All European nations cannot handle a single currency because not all of them are under the same roof like US states are. They don't respond to a single governing body, they don't share the same national economy as a consequence. Not every nation has resources they can contribute to it. Greece, for example, and other nations, mainly Slavic ones, don't have what other countries like Germany, France and Italy do. That's where the main problem is. If Greece wasn't going to collapse, eventually someone else would, and not neccessarily the poorer countries. I think Italy was just as likely to collapse as Greece was. Others just got lucky Greece came first.

Last edited by Tsuyoshi; 2010-04-28 at 07:36.
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Old 2010-04-28, 09:48   Link #6990
MrTerrorist
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Venezuela leader Hugo Chavez takes to Twitter
I wonder if he ever responds if someone criticizes him on Twitter?
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Old 2010-04-28, 11:10   Link #6991
Vexx
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Greece seems to be having a "California"-ish problem. They need to tighten their economic belt... but the middle and working classes are pissed because the pain is not being shared equally (from what I can tell from afar). Its the classic class of the rich getting to tiptoe around the problem (often caused by their decision-making) while the masses take the pain. OTOH.... I'm getting the sensation that the average citizen may be unwilling to take *any* personal pain to solve the problem, so the entire country looks a bit like a "don't wanna" tantrum. Hard to tell through media filters, the US corporate media is horrendous on the topic and the BBC/DW reports aren't really doing much "why" analysis, just reporting on the fracas.
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Old 2010-04-28, 12:05   Link #6992
Kimitachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Venezuela leader Hugo Chavez takes to Twitter
I wonder if he ever responds if someone criticizes him on Twitter?
Well, Chavez has repeatedly accused his political opponents to use Facebook and Twitter to insult government officials. He's going to use it to fight back (he says).
The funny thing is that messages on the site are limited to 140 characters or fewer, and he's used to very long speeches.
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Old 2010-04-28, 14:48   Link #6993
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I worry too, given how sue happy people are. But if we let every potential lawsuit interfere with the choice to act we'd never get anywhere. There are health consequences but there are devices to assist with that,
What, so not only you want everyone to learn CPR, you want us to lug around first aid kits everywhere we go, too?

Quote:
and sick or injured people collapsing in public already create issues of contamination.
Not as much as literally swapping spit with them.

Quote:
Agreed. I wasn't trying to paint him in any bad light, just pointing out that his entire theory is written from the same perspective he chooses to point out.
I don't think you can write generalities without, well, generalizing.

Quote:
People are only faceless because we let them be so.
The point of the article is that we've only got room in our heads for 150 non faceless people. It's not a choice, it's a limit in our abilities. We can only be so good at mental arithmetic, or at playing bowling... or at remembering that those around us are living, thinking human beings just the same at us. Rather than elements of background.

Of course, we've found ways to cope. We've had to, to build our societies and live together. That's why we have concepts like courtesies, or laws. Or, heck, even altruism. We can't truly bring ourselves to care about everyone as our siblings... but we can pretend.

And hey, it's not to say that some people don't risk life and limb for the faceless. It's not to say heroes don't walk among us.

Quote:
It's impossible for any human to remember every name and face, but we can choose to apply a better universal attitude towards others that will also impact us in return. Pay it forward, one good deed deserves another, etc.

For someone like me, who has spent years in customer service....I've never once treated any customer as less than human unless they truly did something that removed all doubt that they had no respect in kind . Even customers that really pushed the line got a smile and the best possible service I could provide. You'd be surprised at how many people are irate that the system simply doesn't care, but by finding someone who treats them as a person instead of just a faceless customer their whole attitude changes and they become much more pleasant and it's easier to find a satisfactory resolution.

My attitude works in reverse as well. When dealing with customer service I put myself in their shoes and show patience, use polite words and manners, and try to be as concise as possible with my problem. It doesn't do much good to call up and scream into the phone at some person getting paid 8 bucks an hour.

All I'm really saying is that even if you don't really know a person, they'll be much more inclined to give you the respect and compassion of a human being when you treat them like one too. You may care more on a personal level (following the monkeysphere theory), but that doesn't mean you should limit your caring to just the bubble simply because the rest are faceless.
Of course not. The point is that most people are faceless to you, just as you are faceless to them. That's all. It's not that you have to be an ass.




Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Exactly. To be a better person
Better for whom?

Quote:
means to care for your fellow man, basically. People want to be happy, and those who are happy generally are that way because of the impact that other people's collective kindness has on their lives. The philosophy of virtue is one of the most important things for humanity's well-being, which is made by individuals. Those individuals who do not care about helping those in need or being kind to them are detrimental to society and therefore detrimental to everyone. Thus, as a part of society, it is better for each individual to act with virtue.

Of course, this should be obvious. People who think to be virtuous is naive are just stupid or materialistic. Virtue is the greatest human rationality.
Then why are so many successful people psychopaths? Why are they the decision makers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Give Solace a medal!

Anyways, I think that as many advancements society has made throughout its history, especially 20th century history, a lot of people's mentalities are stuck in the pre-historic era wherein you live by the philosophy to "Live and let Die."
I don't think it'd have happened like that during prehistory, actually. Absence of camera phones aside... all those bystanders? They'd have been the guy's neighbors. With whom he'd spent his whole life.

Quote:
I find this especially common among people who have more to lose.
How do you figure? Had a lot of opportunities to watch people getting stabbed? In different social environments?

Quote:
Money, fame, power, influence, posessions, people value their lives according to how much they own, not by who they are as people.
What, you think hobos are suicidal? And that gainfully employed people aren't?

Quote:
That's where the survivalist mentality comes from, and that's how people likely thought in the beginning of mankind. Our posessions have increased, both in quantity and quality, but how we treat what we have hasn't changed at all.
No, the "survivalist mentality" comes from our survival instinct. Animals have it. And it predates the concept of "possession".

Quote:
The fact of the matter is that people don't realize we all walk on the same earth, all of us are human beings. What a lot of people don't understand is that life isn't valued by what we have, but who we are as men. It's not all about owning a Mercedes, or having a 3 floor villa, but it's about who would care if you died? By this, I don't mean "how many people would care?" An entire population made of millions of people would care, but who are those people to you compared to your family? Why would they care? Do they care because you were good to them and they mourn you because you will be missed, or will they care because now they can live happier that you're gone because of all the things you did to them? That's what defines how much you're worth as a human being.
Who says? Why should you decide how a life is valued? And for that matter, what does "who you are as a person" even mean?

Quote:
Now the problem with people not caring about a guy who'se obviously dying on the street is because those people will think that it's not their problem, they have better things to do and this life isn't as much worth as mine. How do you know that?
Simple. He isn't me. He isn't family. I don't even know him. Therefore, to me, his life is worth much, much less than mine. He could be Mother Theresa, and that'd still hold true.

Quote:
How do you know that, as a human being, he is not as worth as you? Do you know him? Who are you to decide these things?
Someone who doesn't waste his time judging the worth of other people's lives on some obscure absolute scale.

Quote:
Would you think it is right for them not to help you if you were the one in his death throes out on the street? Do you know if he has family, friends? Is it right to just assume that a homeless man has no family? You don't know that, you can't know unless you ask, and they only way to do that? Save him. Do the right thing and call 911. Regardless of legal implications, it is humane to help. He is another human being living the same world, going through the same hardships you, as a human, are going through in this plane of existence.
Yeah, so?


You know, it's going to be hilarious if one of you guys on you moral high horses finds himself in that kind of situation... and freezes. I mean, I'm sure if you'd asked those people on that video, they'd have said you have to help. It's not like they woke up that morning with the intent of being assholes. It's like the Milgram experiment. If you'd asked the subject one hour before it began, they wouldn't have thought they had it in them to be torturers.

You never know. Maybe you'll be one of those guys (other cracked article to restore your faith in humanity.) But ask yourself: do you like your odds?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Greece seems to be having a "California"-ish problem. They need to tighten their economic belt... but the middle and working classes are pissed because the pain is not being shared equally (from what I can tell from afar). Its the classic class of the rich getting to tiptoe around the problem (often caused by their decision-making) while the masses take the pain. OTOH.... I'm getting the sensation that the average citizen may be unwilling to take *any* personal pain to solve the problem, so the entire country looks a bit like a "don't wanna" tantrum. Hard to tell through media filters, the US corporate media is horrendous on the topic and the BBC/DW reports aren't really doing much "why" analysis, just reporting on the fracas.
Yes, and from the outside (meaning the guys from countries asked to lend them money), it looks quite annoying. We have to make sacrifices. Why wouldn't they? Then again, my position as a Frenchman is ambiguous. My countrymen are also protesting the sacrifices they're asked to make.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2010-04-28 at 15:34.
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Old 2010-04-28, 15:17   Link #6994
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Greece seems to be having a "California"-ish problem. They need to tighten their economic belt... but the middle and working classes are pissed because the pain is not being shared equally (from what I can tell from afar). Its the classic class of the rich getting to tiptoe around the problem (often caused by their decision-making) while the masses take the pain. OTOH.... I'm getting the sensation that the average citizen may be unwilling to take *any* personal pain to solve the problem, so the entire country looks a bit like a "don't wanna" tantrum. Hard to tell through media filters, the US corporate media is horrendous on the topic and the BBC/DW reports aren't really doing much "why" analysis, just reporting on the fracas.
The best article I've read so far on this topic is actually from the WSJ. It really explains the issue in a clear manner.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...153415820.html

In short: German and French banks own a large part of the Greece debt and in case of a default stand to loose $120 billion. The Greek government faced with strong popular opposition is trying to negotiate a deal is acceptable to both the other European countries and their people. The German government is playing hardball in the negotiations as a result of home election pressure, they can't afford to be seen as soft.

If Greece were the only vulnerable country there would not have been such a big problem. Unfortunately there is a contagion risk that could cause Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy to come under pressure as well. That's why Europe and IMF are very likely to try everything to prevent a Greek default, even if only delaying it by one or two years. Should things go wrong and market speculation causes more defaults then many European banks will fail. We are talking about a cost along the lines of about 25-50% of subprime mortgage crisis so it could have a global impact. The IMF is very active in attempting to shore up Greece as I doubt Washington would like to see a second round of bank bailouts.

The Greek government in the mean time has some space to negotiate terms as they are aware that other countries have a strong incentive to help them out of a sense of self preservation. Needles to say this has resulted in a hate frenzy against Greece in the popular press.
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Old 2010-04-28, 16:32   Link #6995
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mucking about
Age: 64
Japan to Launch Solar Sail Spacecraft "Ikaros"

http://inhabitat.com/2010/04/28/japa...il-spacecraft/

Quote:
Originally Posted by the article
Though solar sail-powered crafts have been used before, Ikaros is the first to attempt to enter deep space. The craft’s 46-foot sails come equipped with solar cells thinner than a human hair. When solar particles hit the cells, they generate power for Ikaros. Mission controllers on the ground will steer the craft by adjusting the sails’ angles, ensuring optimal amounts of radiation are reaching the solar cells.

Ikaros’s pricetag is in the realm of $16 million dollars. And while it’s certainly an ambitious project, there are no guarantees the fuel-free space explorer will work. A rocket will transport Ikaros to space on May 18th, along with Japan’s first satellite to Venus.
Slashdot discussion

When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's I read all of the "Tom Swift, Jr." series of books about a teenaged inventor. (There had been a series of earlier books about Tom's dad that appeared in the 1930's along with the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew series.) Tom invented a number of spacecraft that used "sails" and solar pressure to travel, detailed in Tom Swift and the Cosmic Astronauts (1960). Funny to see how that's actually coming to pass.
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Old 2010-04-28, 23:11   Link #6996
LeoXiao
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Better for whom?
I explained this in the paragraph. Better for everybody including yourself.

Quote:
Then why are so many successful people psychopaths? Why are they the decision makers?
Because people are often stupid and let them be at the top. If people acted more virtuously, I would say that psychopaths would have less influence. And even psychopaths often act upon the moral standards agreed to by society (particularly if they're in a position to lead or affect it greatly), which limits their behavior.
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Old 2010-04-29, 00:10   Link #6997
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I explained this in the paragraph. Better for everybody including yourself.
And you miss my point, which is that "better" is relative to each individual's own sense of values. So, for that matter is virtuous, not that you seem to realize that either. While you can decide for yourself what constitutes a better person, you can't decide it for anyone else.

Quote:
Because people are often stupid and let them be at the top. If people acted more virtuously, I would say that psychopaths would have less influence. And even psychopaths often act upon the moral standards agreed to by society (particularly if they're in a position to lead or affect it greatly), which limits their behavior.
Which isn't being virtuous. Merely rational.
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Old 2010-04-29, 05:45   Link #6998
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
http://inhabitat.com/2010/04/28/japa...il-spacecraft/



Slashdot discussion

When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's I read all of the "Tom Swift, Jr." series of books about a teenaged inventor. (There had been a series of earlier books about Tom's dad that appeared in the 1930's along with the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew series.) Tom invented a number of spacecraft that used "sails" and solar pressure to travel, detailed in Tom Swift and the Cosmic Astronauts (1960). Funny to see how that's actually coming to pass.
Ikaros is the name of the female angel protagonist from the semi-hentai manga Sora No Otoshimono.

So.........when do we get one named Nymph and Astraea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
The best article I've read so far on this topic is actually from the WSJ. It really explains the issue in a clear manner.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...153415820.html

In short: German and French banks own a large part of the Greece debt and in case of a default stand to loose $120 billion. The Greek government faced with strong popular opposition is trying to negotiate a deal is acceptable to both the other European countries and their people. The German government is playing hardball in the negotiations as a result of home election pressure, they can't afford to be seen as soft.

If Greece were the only vulnerable country there would not have been such a big problem. Unfortunately there is a contagion risk that could cause Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy to come under pressure as well. That's why Europe and IMF are very likely to try everything to prevent a Greek default, even if only delaying it by one or two years. Should things go wrong and market speculation causes more defaults then many European banks will fail. We are talking about a cost along the lines of about 25-50% of subprime mortgage crisis so it could have a global impact. The IMF is very active in attempting to shore up Greece as I doubt Washington would like to see a second round of bank bailouts.

The Greek government in the mean time has some space to negotiate terms as they are aware that other countries have a strong incentive to help them out of a sense of self preservation. Needles to say this has resulted in a hate frenzy against Greece in the popular press.
I think this picture best explains everything : This Euro debt things can affect the world economy once again : and solely by 4 countries alone.



If you take a look carefully at the picture, Spain produces the most debt, while Germany holds the most. And the SEC's idea of building junk bonds to sell is just the subprime crisis all over again, this time the homes are that of many people, not just individuals.

On the other hand, if they manage to pay the debt off.......anyone who bought the bonds are going to end up seriously rich.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-04-29, 19:28   Link #6999
Xellos-_^
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the...for-senat.html

Florida Gov. Charlie Crist announced this afternoon he will run for the Senate as an independent, breaking with the Republican party and setting up a three-way battle in the fall fraught with national political implications.
"Our political system is broken," said Crist at a rally in St. Petersburg. "I believe in democracy and the right to choose."
Crist, who will remain a registered Republican, repeatedly cast his decision as in the best interests of Floridians, saying at one point that the easiest course for him would be to run for re-election as governor but that people across the state had urged him to pursue an independent Senate bid.

i don't think Regan if he was running in 2010 could have earn the support of the teabaggers.
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Old 2010-04-29, 22:40   Link #7000
Roger Rambo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Ikaros is the name of the female angel protagonist from the semi-hentai manga Sora No Otoshimono.
It sounds like a romajinization of Icarus...
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