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Old 2010-04-28, 04:42   Link #9421
Laserworm
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Quote:
I don't see how anyone can say this after Ep4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Not by her mother, probably.

But according to Nanjo, pretty much everyone on the island has engaged in Beatrice-supporting pranks for Maria's sake at least once in a while.

Which is more evidence for 'no living Beatrice' idea if I can only find the vessel for summoning.
Why I say it; just look at her behavior. She throws temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way. She gets angry if you try to tell her otherwise, or don't listen to what she says. Just look at the rose garden scene in ep1.

Now the question is how did she get that way. This is a shot in the dark probably, but I think that when Maria was little 4-6; Rosa spoiled her like crazy. Rosa most of the time only gets angry with Maria after she acts childish, or spoiled. Beating the child is certainly not the answer, but when a child acts like this the parent can get angry. After all it makes them look bad, like they didn't raise their child right etc. Rosa probably feels that when Maria does those it shows once again how inferior to her siblings she is.
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Old 2010-04-28, 05:04   Link #9422
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Why I say it; just look at her behavior. She throws temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way. She gets angry if you try to tell her otherwise, or don't listen to what she says. Just look at the rose garden scene in ep1.
I've actually wondered about this scene for a while. Maria acts like a two-year-old for that scene and for most of early Ep1, yet in every other game, and especially in the flashback in Ep4, she's clearly far, far more mature than her tantrums would indicate.

Oliver's theory that Rosa drugged her probably has some merit.

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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Now the question is how did she get that way. This is a shot in the dark probably, but I think that when Maria was little 4-6; Rosa spoiled her like crazy. Rosa most of the time only gets angry with Maria after she acts childish, or spoiled. Beating the child is certainly not the answer, but when a child acts like this the parent can get angry. After all it makes them look bad, like they didn't raise their child right etc. Rosa probably feels that when Maria does those it shows once again how inferior to her siblings she is.
Rosa has resented Maria ever since she was born, and I doubt she was spoiled much other than Rosa's clumsy attempts to make up for all the suffering she inflicts upon her daughter.

I can't believe you're defending Rosa here. Maria being a brat doesn't excuse Rosa taking her to the edge of a train platform and slapping the shit out of her, or neglecting her to go on trips to Hokkaido with boyfriends, or tearing her daughter's favorite toy in half and loudly declaring it "dead".

No, Rosa has NOT raised her child right. And that's entirely her own fault.
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Old 2010-04-28, 05:22   Link #9423
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I've actually wondered about this scene for a while. Maria acts like a two-year-old for that scene and for most of early Ep1, yet in every other game, and especially in the flashback in Ep4, she's clearly far, far more mature than her tantrums would indicate.

Oliver's theory that Rosa drugged her probably has some merit.



Rosa has resented Maria ever since she was born, and I doubt she was spoiled much other than Rosa's clumsy attempts to make up for all the suffering she inflicts upon her daughter.

I can't believe you're defending Rosa here. Maria being a brat doesn't excuse Rosa taking her to the edge of a train platform and slapping the shit out of her, or neglecting her to go on trips to Hokkaido with boyfriends, or tearing her daughter's favorite toy in half and loudly declaring it "dead".

No, Rosa has NOT raised her child right. And that's entirely her own fault.

In ep3 Maria has a childish tantrum.

We were never told that Rosa hates Maria. We were told that Rosa used to find Maria's 'uu~" cute. No it doesn't excuse what Rosa does, but Rosa isn't that horrible of a mother, she could easily be way worse. Rosa has anger issues and may be even bipolar. She has a truck load of self hate and many other issues. What she does is terrible to Maria yes, but from other scenes I think we can see that Rosa does love Maria; it is just so jumbled because of all the other problems. Rosa isn't just this horrid person, she is this sad person whose happiness is being ruined by her struggles to control her own issues.
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Old 2010-04-28, 05:40   Link #9424
Dlanor .A. Nox
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The only time I can recall Rosa ever stating that she hates Maria is that scene in Ep 4 where Maria tortures Rosa in her dream. I doubt that is much evidence of Rosa hating Maria to her core though since it's all in Maria's head. I know that being a single parent is hell, even though it doesn't justify Rosa's abuse there are alot of problems that stack up and take a tremendous toll on Rosa. Financial debt is a big freaking concern for one, child services, her company not doing well. Rosa isn't entirely at fault either, Maria made things worse with her tantrums. If Rosa really hated Maria she would have just given her up for adoption as well, but nope. Rosa wouldn't fight for custody of Maria if she didn't love her. Another thing, raising a company as well as a daughter doesn't leave much room for having a personal life either. Rosa is facing many social stigmas by raising a daughter on her own without a husband, so you can tell it's not easy for Rosa to actually find someone who would accept Rosa having a daughter. It's not justified either to abandon Maria for her boyfriend but it certainly wasn't easy for Rosa to find someone who accepts her either. Like Laserworm said isn't a horrible person she is just under extremely heavy circumstances which is why she is acting the way she is. It isn't a total justification for Rosa's actions but certainly she isn't entirely at fault as some claim it to be.
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Old 2010-04-28, 05:53   Link #9425
Kaisos Erranon
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I said Rosa resents Maria. I didn't say that she hates her. Not quite the same thing. Notice Rosa's own tantrum towards her lover in Ep4... she blames Maria's existence for her own inadequacies and insecurities. Furthermore, Maria's tendencies to resort to crying and screaming to get her way are due to Rosa's bad parenting... but it's clear she doesn't actually know how to raise a child.

Rosa isn't a complete monster, but she is definitely a horribly screwed-up person, probably due to her own godawful childhood. Most people have parenting styles based on how they themselves were raised, which is why many victims of child abuse go on to become child abusers themselves.

So really, everything is Kinzo's fault.
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Old 2010-04-28, 06:21   Link #9426
Oliver
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Well, when rereading Ep4, I figured out why Maria seems to lack a skill to get her way quietly by guilt tripping her parent. Normally that ability develops by 6 or so.

Every time she does anything that would bestow any new guilt on Rosa, the existing reservoir of guilt bursts and Rosa hits her.
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Old 2010-04-28, 06:40   Link #9427
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Every time she does anything that would bestow any new guilt on Rosa, the existing reservoir of guilt bursts and Rosa hits her.
Ah, see? There we go. Maria tantrums to get what she wants because she knows there's no other way.

Even if Rosa hits her a little, she'll usually give in to avoid further embarrassment.
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Old 2010-04-28, 06:45   Link #9428
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That's actually a very well known parental mistake.

By ignoring constantly their kids except when they throw a tantrum, they reinforce such behavior because it's the only way the children can get their attention.
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Old 2010-04-28, 06:55   Link #9429
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Ah, see? There we go. Maria tantrums to get what she wants because she knows there's no other way.

Even if Rosa hits her a little, she'll usually give in to avoid further embarrassment.
Mind you, Maria quite definitely is a prodigy otherwise. See the scene about teppou/raifuru on the test. Notice that this happened in the first grade of elementary school when she was 6. She was ahead of the school program by at least a year, possibly much more.

Unfortunately, in Japan in particular, a child prodigy is seen as a problem even more than in other countries, and her way to be one is also incompatible with the restrictive school grading system - she is smarter and better educated but can't get better grades for it. Rosa is embarrassed of her child being different rather than of her child being actually inferior to others, and imposes standards not so much strict as nonsensical, which she partly inherits from her own childhood, (which were more or less sensible for an ojousama from a rich family that Rosa was but are completely silly for a city apartment dweller with a lone mother) and partly twists into a complete mess on her own.

But if we're to be detectives, judging Rosa is not our job. What we need is to wrestle facts out of this messy narrative.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:03   Link #9430
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However I don't think that your usual detective like Miss Marple, Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot would be of any help in this story. If you try to solve this mystery like a detective would, you are probably deemed to fail.

I think Erika was meant to show that to us.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:18   Link #9431
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I came to that conclusion too, Erika didn't view it as anything other than a mystery. Ep 4 made it clear that we aren't just supposed to look at it as just a plain mystery.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:21   Link #9432
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However I don't think that your usual detective like Miss Marple, Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot would be of any help in this story. If you try to solve this mystery like a detective would, you are probably deemed to fail.

I think Erika was meant to show that to us.
I disagree about miss Marple in particular. She'd be able to pump far more information out of Maria than anyone else. She'd probably even understand magic. Still, waxing poetic that character X or character Y is in some way detestable or worthy of praise is hardly much help -- we need to accept that once we came to this, and see what follows from it and what causes it. Especially with how important Maria seems to be in the whole mess.

As I pointed out above, Nanjo's statement that pretty much everyone on the island played a Beatrice-affirming prank for Maria's sake at one point or another fits well with them seeing a need to somehow cheer the girl up and recognising her life is actually quite pitiful. So I expect they knew. I seriously wonder if Rosa visited more often than once a year, even though I don't see any hints stating that.

I'm also very much concerned about Maria's name. Kinzo wanted a very different name for Maria, bur Rosa made it into Maria on her own -- notice, she doesn't say she picked a different name, and the name still shows Kinzo's insane design pattern. I suspect this means a single kanji or even a sub-kanji difference -- a missing or an added stroke, or something similarly subtle that produces a very different reading.

So once again -- is there anyone versed in Japanese well enough to suggest a possible original name?
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:44   Link #9433
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Again, let me stress: With a few limited exceptions, nobody credible ever sees what Rosa does to Maria, and Maria's own diary is a hopelessly biased source. The ep4 scene where Rosa says all the horrible things to Maria is also Maria's own dream. I realize how monstrous it sounds to question the sincerity of a child, but because Maria is so unusually intelligent yet emotionally immature, I have to question whether Rosa is really as bad as we think she is.

That said, she has hit her in the presence of Battler. I'm not denying that. But it may not be the pattern of abuse we think it is. Maria's bias helps explain ANGE's magic in the Golden Land, so it's not unimaginable to think that she is incredibly misrepresenting events.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:48   Link #9434
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I had no doubt that you'd disagree with that, Oliver.

anyway:

Quote:
お父様はかつて真里亞に全然違う名前をつけるように言っていたの
otosama wa katsute Maria ni zenzen chigau namae wo tsukeru you ni itteita no

a "completely different name". I strongly doubt that Rosa would say that if there was just some minor change in the kanji composition.
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Old 2010-04-28, 07:57   Link #9435
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
otosama wa katsute Maria ni zenzen chigau namae wo tsukeru you ni itteita no

a "completely different name". I strongly doubt that Rosa would say that if there was just some minor change in the kanji composition.
Why exactly does it follow Kinzo's design pattern anyway then?
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Old 2010-04-28, 08:12   Link #9436
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Rosa is still an Ushiromiya. While we know that Battler thinks that it's ridiculous to name people like that, we have never heard anyone else sharing this opinion. Maybe they all think it's cool and original.

There is also the fact that Rosa chose a name that at least phonetically is not so uncommon. So among the Ushiromiya, Maria has the least strange name of them all. I guess Rosa chose a compromise between Ushiromiya tradition and general norms.
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Old 2010-04-28, 08:21   Link #9437
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is also the fact that Rosa choose a name that at least phonetically is not so uncommon. So among the Ushiromiya, Maria has the least strange name of them all. I guess Rosa chose a compromise between Ushiromiya tradition and general norms.
Well, maybe...

Paradoxically, I think it also happens to be an epitaph hint anyway, just not in the kanji they're thinking it is. That cross-like 'a' is a fairly uncommon one.
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Old 2010-04-28, 08:38   Link #9438
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The strangeness is that the kanji

亜 亞

Are exactly the same thing, these two only represent two different ways to write the same symbol. The former became the standard simply because it's a lot easier to write (I guess). there are a lot of other examples of Kanji that were simplified in japanese.

Again this might be just to be "original", Battler himself admits that in this case it's "classy". Even Erika has a strangeness in he name normally it should be:

エリカ but instead she has  ヱリカ
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Old 2010-04-28, 09:59   Link #9439
Oliver
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Abrupt, unrelated idea.

In Ep4 escape scene, Krauss says "Naturally, for a loving family like us." to Kyrie. While it's a moment filled with pathos up the wazoo, that particular line jumped out at me. It feels... A bit unwarranted even with all the stuff we're being shown.

Well, the scene is obviously buried under many layers of metaphor and noise, but earlier on the phone, Kyrie actually calls Battler her son, and it feels more than a sentiment -- rather, it sounds like she actually knows he is and is only able to say that now. And we know there's a good chance he is.

What if Battler is actually Krauss and Kyrie's son? If he were born a few months before Jessica, which is possible, he could actually be the true heir of the Ushiromiya cousin generation.

That offers lots of interesting possibilities.

P.S. ...anyone remembers the ending of Marmalade Boy?
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Old 2010-04-28, 10:09   Link #9440
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no doubt that that would be quite an unexpected plot twist XD
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