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Old 2010-04-29, 12:29   Link #9601
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Whose handwriting do you think the letters were written in?
Currently I have no good theory on that. I'll get to that yet.

I must note that nobody seems to be considering the possibility that it could have been Maria herself thinking that she is Beatrice (that is, letting her borrow her hand due to being currently disembodied) in collusion with a someone else who provided the money. Handwriting is hardly a very effective method of identification.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:31   Link #9602
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Even if it was Maria herself you'd still need a second person that set up the accounts and told Maria to write the letters. So this would be needlessly complicated.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:34   Link #9603
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Currently I have no good theory on that. I'll get to that yet.

I must note that nobody seems to be considering the possibility that it could have been Maria herself thinking that she is Beatrice (that is, letting her borrow her hand due to being currently disembodied) in collusion with a someone else who provided the money. Handwriting is hardly a very effective method of identification.
Well, unless Maria or someone else was faking her other handwriting, she's the only person who can't be the 'handwriting Beatrice', since it was stated that hers and 'Beatrice's' were completely different, and that Beatrice's was very unlike the handwriting of a 9 year old girl. That isn't proof, but it seems more plausible to me than the alternative.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:35   Link #9604
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Even if it was Maria herself you'd still need a second person that set up the accounts and told Maria to write the letters. So this would be needlessly complicated.
Not really if Maria is the medium for 'Beatrice' in the first place, that is, summons her, and that 'Beatrice' figures in the plans of someone else, for example.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:38   Link #9605
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You'd need to explain more in detail here... Because I can't see how Maria could go to a bank and nonchalantly ask to set up a bank account, even more I can't see any employee accepting that request from a 9 year old girl.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:40   Link #9606
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think this can be said with certainty either. If it was Beatrice who had this idea, we know that she's fickle enough to have left to chance whether the receiver would actually get the money. If it was Kinzo's idea he might have thought that only those smart enough to realize how to use the stuff they were given and determinate enough to take shady money would be worthy of getting the prize.
Then we know that whoever sent compensation money is either completely uncaring or very fickle, which, I expect, can narrow that field down.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:43   Link #9607
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Then we know that whoever sent compensation money is either completely uncaring or very fickle, which, I expect, can narrow that field down.
It is also most probable that this person doesn't really have at heart the sort of such a whole lot of money. A person that knows that she's going to die soon would fit. We know that Kinzo knew that would happen, and he doesn't care if his sons won't get any of his money.

Beatrice who's said to be already in possession of ten tons of gold also seems pretty uninterested in wealth.
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Old 2010-04-29, 12:49   Link #9608
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You'd need to explain more in detail here... Because I can't see how Maria could go to a bank and nonchalantly ask to set up a bank account, even more I can't see any employee accepting that request from a 9 year old girl.
I said 'in collusion with someone else who provided the money' and obviously thought that creating the safe deposit account and arranging the boxes was naturally assumed. But Maria can still be one who initiates the action and can even send the letters herself.

I don't think it is likely that it was Maria doing that, but - I'm not sure an individual using the name 'Beatrice' actually existed in any kind of material form, whether using someone else's body or their own, between the death of Beatrice-2 and when the portrait was put up, and possibly only showed up at the very last moment. My impression is that Beatrice is both an existence dispersed between multiple people like the Phantom Kinzo, and a title multiple people lay claim to.
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Old 2010-04-29, 15:53   Link #9609
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Okay, I think I have some pretty good guesses for Rules X,Y, and Z for this game. I'll be using Berkanstel's Letter as consistent support and basis for my theories.

First I would like to tackle Rule Z since it is deemed by Bernkanstel as the "maze" that prevents you from reaching Rules X and Y. She also noted that this very rule has a bad affinity to her. With that clue, I sufficed that Rule Z has to deal with Science or Logic. Seeing as Bernkastel is considered the Witch of Miracles, you can see her as the embodiment of miracles, and the only opposition to Miracles is Science. Science's goal is to explain the universe that God created, thus it seeks to explain everything about the universe, which includes explaining any form of magic or miracle that has happened or exists. Thus I can suffice that Rule Z must deal with Logic or Science. Also, Bernkastel said that it can be described by applying Rock- Paper- Scissors into it. To me, the only things about the game that can apply to this are the colored Truths: Gold, Red, and Blue. Of course, the rules with these truths are very confusing, and is probably the reason why Bernkastel couldn't figure this out. In Rock- Paper- Scissors, each gesture is weak against one, yet stronger than the other. The truths, however, are different. Blue is the weakest of the truths since it can be used by humans and is only truth the humans can use. When said, if not denied, it becomes the truth of the subject spoken. However, it can also be used in a way that it can against the Red, but it is still susceptible to the Gold. The Red is the subjective truth of the subject spoken and can't be argued against. It is only used by the supernatural, but its words can be twisted to fit the needs of humans. Its stronger than the Blue, but if the blue is used right, it can't be spoken. Supposedly, the Gold can either be stronger or weaker than the Red, but details of this relationship is unknown. With this idea in mind, I can only say that Rule Z can allow a person to explain the mystery of Rokkenjima by only using reasonable, logical deductions using the colored truths provided. Of course, I'm not completely sure on this, but this is the best bet I can possibly make on Rule Z.

Now, with that idea of Rule Z in mind, I have a pretty good idea of what Rules X and Y are. Bernkastel said that she paradoxically identified Rule X after hearing Lambdadelta say that she won't solve this board. I'm guessing that Rule X must delve more into Rule Z since it is something that prevents Bernkastel from solving the board. At the same time, there is also the hint that it is the core of Beatrice. I suffice with those clues that Rule X is The Legend of Beatrice: Since Beatrice's power resides within the belief of those who believe in her magic, she must be constantly seen as a supernatural being and as long as the riddle of Rokkenjima is not solved, she will forever be seen as such. This rule was probably made so that no one but those allowed could solve the Rokkenjima murders which is why Bernkastel herself cannot, or isn't permitted to, solve it. However, this contradicts my guess for Rule Z unless it is meant to be this way or I'm wrong about either rule.

Last is Rule Y. This rule is considered by Bernkastel to be the very existence of Beatrice and what makes her stronger than the other witches. I believe that the only thing that cause her to be this strong is not the faith that the island's residents provide her, but the love that they share between themselves and towards her. It is constantly said that without love it cannot be seen, and I took this as one of the rules of the game. Back then, however, it was a mere guess. Now, I strongly believe that it is a rule. It is said by Bernkastel that Beatrice's magic is something that they don't have: "The rule Y that makes it into the source of the magic.
It seems Lambda-Delta touched it a bit but too, but she can't possibly reach her level.
If we call this very thing as magic, except for Beatrice, certainly not one of us can be called a witch.
In that sense, we may say that since she put together her own magic system, even if she enters the beginners' class, as a witch, her level already surpasses the witches, ... and she is starting to step even into your level."
According to Bernkastel, she, Lambda, nor the recipient of this letter could touch into this kind of magic or be able to master it the way Beatrice has. Of course, there are multiple kinds of magic out there, but what about that magic is so different than the one's Lambda and Bern has attained. It must be something that is so powerful that the witch doesn't have to rely on faith in order to maintain her power and form. Somehting that every human has that they don't even have to show Beatrice any form of faith to feed her power. I can only suffice that this power is love because of Beatrice's own experience in Rokkenjima. Seemingly, Kinzo's love for her was so strong that it gave her a physical shape, something that was hard for her to attain in present times. I would also use the Beatrice from Dante's Inferno, from which this Beatrice was based off of, as a clue. Beatrice in Dante's Inferno is interpreted by many as the source of desire of Dante, the reason why he lives and continues on his epic for without this desire, without her, he would never have begun this journey in the first place. Maybe the same rule applies to Beatrice. Her power, the source of her very existence, might be the desire crafted by a person, whichever it is focused, and she alone can achieve this desire. With this, I believe that Rule Y is Love: Without Love, Beatrice's existence cannot be seen and her magic is decimated.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:08   Link #9610
Judoh
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If everything makes sense to you with those rules than go ahead an use them. Just remember that in Higurashi we didn't have all these tips and hints. We had to figure it out via what characters did or said. With Umineko we have to use small statements and hints to figure it out. So nothing is definite.

My personal preference though is that Lambda does not have a bad affinity with Bern. In Higurashi they used the same maze metaphor in the later games and Keiichi was the person who helped Rika "cut through the maze". So I think she would actually want Lambda's help to get out of the maze, and I think that's why they seem to be allies in Chiru.

I think the maze is something that changes all the time though. Since it's impossible to make a map in it so the changes that make similar paths should be her way of find her way out of the maze. It's like in video games when your in a labyrinth and you go down certain paths and you end up where you started at. The maze is programmed that way to confuse you. Normally you can't get out without a strategy guide.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-29 at 16:27.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:13   Link #9611
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I'm actually more of the opinion that Rule Z has something to do with love. I thought it was kind of hinted in EP6 that she either cannot understand love, doesn't think it's possible, or is too repulsed by it to want to understand it.

At the very least, I think by Erika alone we know that Bern is a very logical witch and that she doesn't have a problem finding out those sorts of things. Her "miracles" are obtained through cutting through the rules and finding the tiny possibilities that do exist somewhere but are very hard to find. That's why the "greater than 0 odds" requirement on her magic exists.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:32   Link #9612
Judoh
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I've actually gotten the feeling that Bern's affinity uses trial and error so her miracles are closer to a science than most magic. Her magic is a lot like Kinzo's in a way. By trial and error I mean i.e. "this isn't true so this isn't true so therefore this must be true". Or repeating an experiment over and over until you find a way to get a result you never got before.

Beato seems more about noise which is the enemy of math and is therefore the enemy of mysteries and science.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:37   Link #9613
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I've actually gotten the feeling that Bern's affinity uses trial and error so her miracles are closer to a science than most magic. Her magic is a lot like Kinzo's in a way. By trial and error I mean i.e. "this isn't true so this isn't true so therefore this must be true". Or repeating an experiment over and over until you find a way to get a result you never got before.

Beato seems more about noise which is the enemy of math and is therefore the enemy of mysteries and science.
Right, so Rule Z should be a process to generate a vast amount of irrelevant noise on the game board. Like the fake death conspiracy, for instance.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:42   Link #9614
Judoh
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Right, so Rule Z should be a process to generate a vast amount of irrelevant noise on the game board. Like the fake death conspiracy, for instance.
it could be that, but it could also be a number of strange things. Like the Roulette idea. I thought my idea about the leaders of the groups being randomly selected and choosing different people for the plots was one way for that to work. it could be the randomness of the fake deaths that is the noise and not just the fake deaths themselves.

Another thing about rule Z is that I think it's supposed to help you understand rule X and Y better also. Or maybe if you know about it somehow you can kill one of the rules.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:50   Link #9615
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As for Rule Y the first rule of the occult is "As it is above so it is below". This was more about how certain landmarks matched the placement of certain constellations at the time (basically heaven and earth reflect each other), but it works with the meta world too. So Rule Y might have to do with how the game is set up and why both meta and not meta are connected.

Just remember though that even though the meta world and not meta world might reflect each other a reflection is actually an inverted image so it's what you'd see backwards. Same goes with the moon's reflection.
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Old 2010-04-29, 16:54   Link #9616
Oliver
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After some more thinking, I am pretty sure that in the 1998 of Episode 4, Rosa is alive.

It's that red said by Beatrice in her Golden Land: "[And my] magic was not able to revive Sakutarou! [There's no way it could!!] That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal! Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only..." ...and then she chokes.

Here's the reasoning:
  • We have already spent quite a few hours discussing why it is puzzling that Maria's book/diary/grimoire is available to Ange, and is apparently one book, when we know it has to have been present on the island, where very few things of note remained intact, and Maria is very likely dead in that 1998 because of a positively identified jaw fragment.
  • In Ep2, Rosa definitely expressed a desire to "start life over", preferably with Maria, and carried a gold bar expressly to provide funding for this. She was also carrying Maria's bag which contained all five master keys, and we know it contained Maria's book. It is natural to think that Rosa would need to visit her apartment one last time before disappearing anonymously, and she could leave the book there, so that Ange could find it later when she gets access to Maria's personal effects. It's not unusual to do this if Maria was dead and remained on Rokkenjima.
  • We are obviously meant to think that Ep4-1998 is a result of the events of Ep3. But there have always been doubts about this. Above, I have outlined a concept describing what the world of 1998 really might be. As far as I can see, that concept being true is essentially the only way a material Ange may be able to affect whatever happens on the gameboard.
  • Therefore, anything that happened in any other episodes may have happened in the RealWorld-1998, unless the possibilities are mutually exclusive, and it is possible for both Rosa and Eva to be alive, even though events that led to either surviving would have to be rather strongly different from what happened in Ep2 and Ep3.
  • According to the red uttered by Beatrice in the Sakutarou revival scene, 'magic was not able to revive Sakutarou', and can't be used there in the first place. The easiest solution is obviously that magic isn't involved at all.
  • According to further red, the statement that Sakutarou 'was made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday' is true. But the statement that 'Sakutarou is in the entire world the only' cannot be completed. The only way it cannot be said in red is because it is false.
  • Therefore Sakutarou is 'made by Rosa for Maria' and yet 'not the only one'.
  • Therefore another material copy of Sakutarou existed in Ange's world, and it's very likely that this is what Ange sees in a display case in the shop of captain Kawabata's son. It is absolutely no surprise that it would be sold in a shop that trades in pillows, futons, and other related items, because Sakutarou was initially intended as a pillow and has a characteristic shape. It is obviously not another unique copy handmade by Rosa because then it would not be sold in a shop.
  • It has been previously suggested that Rosa's original company may have started manufacturing Sakutarou after her death. But this is highly unlikely for a fashion brand, and it has been mentioned that Rosa lost the original design sketch anyway. It also would contradict the red that it was 'made by Rosa' because then she wouldn't be involved in the production process any more. But nothing stops a surviving Rosa from remaking Sakutarou for mass production exactly how she did it the first time, in memory of her lost daughter, i.e. 'For Maria'. She could even release it on her birthday. If she had a single gold bar, she clearly has enough capital to start a new company.
  • Therefore Rosa is alive in the RealWorld-1998.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:02   Link #9617
Judoh
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People who are considered legally dead can't own companies sorry. I agree that it's possible she survived, but once you got into Sakutarou you went downhill from there.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:05   Link #9618
Oliver
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People who are considered legally dead can't own companies sorry. I agree that it's possible she survived, but once you got into Sakutarou you went downhill from there.
People who are considered legally dead can and do get new identities. 60 million yen can buy a few.

Really, do you think she would keep her name? Look what it did to Eva.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:11   Link #9619
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
People who are considered legally dead can and do get new identities. 60 million yen can buy a few.

Really, do you think she would keep her name? Look what it did to Eva.
Not the point. Maria was an 8 year old girl. There probably crayola drawing of her and Sakutarou lying around. Ange would suspect that Rosa was alive if she was the owner of that company making those dolls because only she could have known about it. She's been to meetings before so she knows what Rosa looks like. You wouldn't just need an identity change you'd need a completely new face.

To put it simply I think your over complicating things. Rosa doesn't need to be alive for the grimoires and Sakutaoru to exist. We just know Ange has the grimiore. How she got it isn't as important as what it means.
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Old 2010-04-29, 17:19   Link #9620
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Not the point. Maria was an 8 year old girl. There probably crayola drawing of her and Sakutarou lying around. Ange would suspect that Rosa was alive if she was the owner of that company making those dolls because only she could have known about it. She's been to meetings before so she knows what Rosa looks like. You wouldn't just need an identity change you'd need a completely new face.
The last time Ange saw Rosa was when she was five years old, so she might very well not recognize her. And she might have suspected Rosa was alive after seeing the doll anyway -- we don't actually know what sort of revelation she had.
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