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Old 2010-05-01, 00:34   Link #9661
Renall
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It's possible the meta-scenes were added by a later author, or that the meta-scenes do not exist at all in any of the versions of the Rokkenjima stories published in 1998. Just because Ange claims to have heard of Alliance of the Golden Witch doesn't necessarily mean it was exactly the same text.

EDIT: In fact, it would make absolutely no sense, although once you get to the question of whether it's Ange or ANGE who has heard of them... well.
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Old 2010-05-01, 00:37   Link #9662
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Both George and Kyrie are unpleasant, jealous, and possessive. I just can't see anyone like that in a 'happy' relationship, and given the things that Kyrie says, I'm pretty sure that she isn't.
I don't know what you think about them is unpleasant but...

They can very easily be possessive and have happy relationships. With George and Shannon it's a lot easier since Shannon is a maid and she's used to being ordered around.(That and feminism may or may not have been big in japan then) And just because your possessive doesn't mean your demanding you can be possessive and be protective, which can be an endearing trait sometimes and would be necessary with a family man, which is one reason why George is good with kids.

In the case of Kyrie and Rudolf it's much simpler. With Rudolf love = sex so all he has to do is give in to her pushiness once and awhile and as long as they get physical Rudolf is happy. I also don't see Kyrie as the stalker or the pushy type. She's very level headed.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-01 at 00:50.
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Old 2010-05-01, 02:36   Link #9663
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
It's not as much reverse blackmailing as it is finding out their own fiancial affairs and firing them back. He pretty much admits there that he has no money as well. Again, not everyone who gets scammed is an idiot and calling Krauss an idiot isn't accurate. Is he incompetent to some point - sure. But he's not a complete moron, it's just that he lacks street smarts.
I still feel this disconnect between Ep1-2 Krauss and Ep5 Krauss, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
And if Kyrie wasn't happy with Rudolf then she wouldn't have stuck around for as long as she did. And you can't say Rudolf doesn't love her either, otherwise there's no way he would have cried as much as he did in EP 6 when he believes her and Battler to be dead.
Kyrie is all RUDOLF BELONGS TO ME in both Ep3 and Ep6, and I recall it's implied she's STILL seething with jealousy over Battler's existence, since she believes him to be Asumu's son.

I wouldn't call her very 'happy'. But this has nothing to do with anything.

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This I have to disagree because I firmly believe that Featherinne made Hachijou, rather than the other way around.
Uh, dude? Witches don't exist and magic isn't real.

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So her answer to the mystery can very well be different from Beatrice, but uses the same context of the story.
As I've said, this would make every game post-Ep2 completely useless.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
So you're saying that "Maria" wrote out exactly what happened, before it even happened.
Yes, actually. She wrote two stories prior to the incident, concerning what "could have" happened on the island, not what "did happen". It's the whole Witch's Darkness thing.

Because of this, I think we can assume that "Maria" is also the person responsible for the Rokkenjima Explosion. She knew that the truth was never going to survive.

This does, however, raise the question as to how she was able to interlace hints into her stories... unless, of course, the letters were written AFTER the Explosion, and 'Maria' is someone who survived... Rosa, perhaps? Like we were discussing earlier?

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I don't know what you think about them is unpleasant but...
...Do I really have to explain this? Especially 'what makes George unpleasant'?
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Old 2010-05-01, 02:47   Link #9664
ijriims
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Lambdadelta had every reason to give false scenes in order to trick Battler and Bern, and account for the rest of the episode.

She did "what Beatrice could do but was not willing to do"

That's how I understood it.
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Old 2010-05-01, 04:45   Link #9665
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If everything makes sense to you with those rules than go ahead an use them. Just remember that in Higurashi we didn't have all these tips and hints. We had to figure it out via what characters did or said. With Umineko we have to use small statements and hints to figure it out. So nothing is definite.

My personal preference though is that Lambda does not have a bad affinity with Bern. In Higurashi they used the same maze metaphor in the later games and Keiichi was the person who helped Rika "cut through the maze". So I think she would actually want Lambda's help to get out of the maze, and I think that's why they seem to be allies in Chiru.

I think the maze is something that changes all the time though. Since it's impossible to make a map in it so the changes that make similar paths should be her way of find her way out of the maze. It's like in video games when your in a labyrinth and you go down certain paths and you end up where you started at. The maze is programmed that way to confuse you. Normally you can't get out without a strategy guide.
At the same time, the general idea of Rule Z can be identified with the Rock- Paper- Scissors game, which I'm guessing means that it has to do with three things and those three things collide with each other to form random results. However, there is no hint as to what those three things are, my only guess are the colored truths.

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I'm actually more of the opinion that Rule Z has something to do with love. I thought it was kind of hinted in EP6 that she either cannot understand love, doesn't think it's possible, or is too repulsed by it to want to understand it.

At the very least, I think by Erika alone we know that Bern is a very logical witch and that she doesn't have a problem finding out those sorts of things. Her "miracles" are obtained through cutting through the rules and finding the tiny possibilities that do exist somewhere but are very hard to find. That's why the "greater than 0 odds" requirement on her magic exists.
Actually, I think Love was more hinted for Rule Y since it was something that only Beatrice can use as magic and the other witches couldn't use it or either couldn't master it.

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I've actually gotten the feeling that Bern's affinity uses trial and error so her miracles are closer to a science than most magic. Her magic is a lot like Kinzo's in a way. By trial and error I mean i.e. "this isn't true so this isn't true so therefore this must be true". Or repeating an experiment over and over until you find a way to get a result you never got before.

Beato seems more about noise which is the enemy of math and is therefore the enemy of mysteries and science.
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Right, so Rule Z should be a process to generate a vast amount of irrelevant noise on the game board. Like the fake death conspiracy, for instance.
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it could be that, but it could also be a number of strange things. Like the Roulette idea. I thought my idea about the leaders of the groups being randomly selected and choosing different people for the plots was one way for that to work. it could be the randomness of the fake deaths that is the noise and not just the fake deaths themselves.

Another thing about rule Z is that I think it's supposed to help you understand rule X and Y better also. Or maybe if you know about it somehow you can kill one of the rules.
Okay, so from what you're saying and what I understand from Bern's letter, there are at least three parts to Rule Z that act in a sort of Rock- Paper- Scissors manner that creates random results and leads away from Rule X and Y.

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As for Rule Y the first rule of the occult is "As it is above so it is below". This was more about how certain landmarks matched the placement of certain constellations at the time (basically heaven and earth reflect each other), but it works with the meta world too. So Rule Y might have to do with how the game is set up and why both meta and not meta are connected.

Just remember though that even though the meta world and not meta world might reflect each other a reflection is actually an inverted image so it's what you'd see backwards. Same goes with the moon's reflection.
And it is this connection between the Meta and Natural world that is the very existence of Beatrice and is seemingly hard for the other witches to comprehend?Or does this rule have to deal merely with whatever the actual rule is?
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Old 2010-05-01, 04:59   Link #9666
Oliver
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They can very easily be possessive and have happy relationships. With George and Shannon it's a lot easier since Shannon is a maid and she's used to being ordered around.(That and feminism may or may not have been big in japan then) And just because your possessive doesn't mean your demanding you can be possessive and be protective, which can be an endearing trait sometimes and would be necessary with a family man, which is one reason why George is good with kids.
Feminism isn't particularly big in Japan even now, for that matter. The problem with George, however, doesn't stop here, as he manages to be ultra-posessive -- practically hypnotic, he's only missing rotating swirlies in his glasses! -- in his private scenes with Shannon in Ep1, but when Battler is about to grope her in his presence, Shannon doesn't resist and George doesn't stop him, even though he has both private and public reasons to do so.

This inaction is odd whether George is really possessive or not. It's odd even when he's not very serious about Shannon. It being an isolated incident is no help either.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This does, however, raise the question as to how she was able to interlace hints into her stories... unless, of course, the letters were written AFTER the Explosion, and 'Maria' is someone who survived... Rosa, perhaps? Like we were discussing earlier?
The first bottle letter was found within days of the explosion and I can't properly parse the text relating to it regarding time. The first time I reread it, it looked like the police found evidence that the bottle lay undisturbed since before the explosion. Then it turned into 'days after'. In either case that someone would have to write very fast or know about things that didn't happen yet.
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Old 2010-05-01, 06:35   Link #9667
Oliver
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Abstract thought.

Whenever resurrecting anyone is actually brought up, it's normally in the context of Kinzo performing various oddities in an attempt to resurrect, or more properly, recreate Beatrice in someone else.

But looking at the games and Meta-Battler himself, what if it's actually the other way around? The way puzzling experiences heap up onto Battler who always survives to the end, and Beatrice narrating how she doesn't stand a chance of winning, and with what happens when he does 'get it' in Ep5...

What if it's Beatrice trying to resurrect Kinzo instead?
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:42   Link #9668
Marion
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Kyrie is all RUDOLF BELONGS TO ME in both Ep3 and Ep6, and I recall it's implied she's STILL seething with jealousy over Battler's existence, since she believes him to be Asumu's son.

I wouldn't call her very 'happy'. But this has nothing to do with anything.
She isn't jealous of Battler as much as she is resentful that he lived and her son died. The only reason she's still hateful of Asumu is because she pretty much lost 12 years of her life and Battler left the family because of her death, which made Rudolf clearly upset. But in EP 6 she says that her jealously of Asumu has subsided into a lesser form of hatred after Battler returned home.

Quote:
Uh, dude? Witches don't exist and magic isn't real.
Quote:
As I've said, this would make every game post-Ep2 completely useless.
Then how does Featherinne know about Rosa's meeting with Beatrice in 1967. How does she know about Kyrie's jealously, even though Ange had all of her mother's diaries. How is she aware of Krauss being scammed, Natsuhi's dead child, and other private family matters. You can't say she made all that up or just shook a magic 8 ball and decided on it.

And it wouldn't make post-EP 2 games useless - she's just writing out the games, not determining what is in them. It's still Beatrice's game, Featherinne is just writing a manuscript of it.
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:57   Link #9669
Verg Avesta
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As I've been lately playing through ep5 again, trying to see if I can find any odd bits about it, and at the same time, formulate a theory of what might have really happened, I've sometimes come across some strange things. However, one thing, once again, caught my eye specifically. It was during the fight with Battler and Dlanor at the ????, when they talk about mistaking Kinzo on sight.

Apparently, for Battler to have seen Kinzo, it must have been "intentional". In other words, Battler must have specifically lied about seeing Kinzo to Erika. But what reason could Battler have to lie about it? Any ideas?
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:05   Link #9670
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
Apparently, for Battler to have seen Kinzo, it must have been "intentional". In other words, Battler must have specifically lied about seeing Kinzo to Erika. But what reason could Battler have to lie about it? Any ideas?
Having been brought in on the Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy previously and deciding to support it, in the interest of getting the family out of the crisis with minimum damage by dividing the gold without revealing Kinzo's demise would be a good one.

Mind you, the exact manner in which Erika exists on the board is quite muddled, so Battler may have been lying to himself at the time. Nothing forbids that, if you can't lie even to yourself, whom you can lie to at all?

EDIT: Though, this is part of a much more interesting and more general question. At the moment it happens and all the way to Natsuhi's confession scene, Meta-Battler is not in control of his own piece and Bernkastel is supposed to be running him. Seeing Kinzo marks the moment when he openly enters opposition to Erika, who is unambiguously Bernkastel's piece as well. So does this mean that Bernkastel intentionally screws with Erika even though that hampers her own strategy?
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:13   Link #9671
Verg Avesta
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Having been brought in on the Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy previously and deciding to support it, in the interest of getting the family out of the crisis with minimum damage by dividing the gold without revealing Kinzo's demise would be a good one.
But why was he brought in the conspiracy? Battler never once joined in it's ranks in the earlier episodes (part of being the detective), so why was he suddenly let into one of the "teams"? Remember that Battler only found gold after the whole thing, so he couldn't have been brought into the conspiracy because he solved the epitaph.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:32   Link #9672
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Verg Avesta View Post
But why was he brought in the conspiracy? Battler never once joined in it's ranks in the earlier episodes (part of being the detective), so why was he suddenly let into one of the "teams"? Remember that Battler only found gold after the whole thing, so he couldn't have been brought into the conspiracy because he solved the epitaph.
Numerous reasons that ignore Knox 8th could exist, the challenge is to find ones that do. Here's a few other options which don't require being in on the conspiracy:
  • Emotional: Battler's narration implies that he doesn't like Erika, right this very scene, a few lines earlier, particularly because she's trampling on people's dignity. Kinzo is invoked as a symbol of such, representing ideas that led Battler to discover the 'signpost' which he cannot convey to Erika specifically because he won't explain such things to an 'intellectual rapist'.
  • Metagaming: Bernkastel is screwing with Erika by torturing her with Battler and leaving him the only window to win. This vision marks the starting point of this activity. That leaves a question of why is she doing that.
  • Historical: Kinzo may actually have told Battler about this element of the puzzle previously, without explaining what it refers to. Battler's spoken lines do not actually say he saw Kinzo, just that Kinzo told him about it. The rest is unspoken unreliable narration. Erika thinks that Battler saw Kinzo entirely on her own and Battler just doesn't refute her question.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:50   Link #9673
Verg Avesta
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Historical: Kinzo may actually have told Battler about this element of the puzzle previously, without explaining what it refers to. Battler's spoken lines do not actually say he saw Kinzo, just that Kinzo told him about it. The rest is unspoken unreliable narration. Erika thinks that Battler saw Kinzo entirely on her own and Battler just doesn't refute her question.
Interestingly enough, Battler actually does say something in that scene. The moment Erika starts searching for the sign, Battler gazes back at the mansion, before noticing "Kinzo". After a while of narration, he utters:

Quote:
"......................G-"
"G-"? He saw something, something that starts with G? Genji? Or is it different when put to japanese, thus making it possible for it to hint at something else?
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Old 2010-05-01, 12:00   Link #9674
Oliver
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Interestingly enough, Battler actually does say something in that scene. The moment Erika starts searching for the sign, Battler gazes back at the mansion, before noticing "Kinzo". After a while of narration, he utters: "G-"? He saw something, something that starts with G? Genji? Or is it different when put to japanese, thus making it possible for it to hint at something else?
Actually, you're right, he says 'ji'... and follows up with "jisama" next line, so that can only refer to Kinzo. But there may be numerous reasons to say it -- it can be an unfinished exclamation "Grandfather! Is that what you meant back then?!" for example. It is not a statement "Here I see Kinzo" nor a statement that implies he is here directly, like "Oh, hi Grandfather." which would be unambiguous.

I'd say it's quite vague enough to still permit this option.
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Old 2010-05-01, 12:47   Link #9675
Verg Avesta
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Actually, you're right, he says 'ji'... and follows up with "jisama" next line, so that can only refer to Kinzo. But there may be numerous reasons to say it -- it can be an unfinished exclamation "Grandfather! Is that what you meant back then?!" for example. It is not a statement "Here I see Kinzo" nor a statement that implies he is here directly, like "Oh, hi Grandfather." which would be unambiguous.

I'd say it's quite vague enough to still permit this option.
Well, still, we must remember that while the narration (The line that follows up with "Grandfather" after the uttered word), maybe be false, what is spoken, especially around detective, has more merit. After all, Erika most certainly heard something, as she reacts to it. More or less, it seems to me that Battler is about to say something, but then shuts up because he gets an alternative idea and changes what he was going to do.......or something like that. It's vague, yes, but since Dlanor emphasized that point, I just went and looked into it.

And well, since it's common for people to mutter the name of the person they think they recognize from distance, or at least this is the case many times in fiction, then I'm not sure if it can be something as complicated as suddenly getting an urge to do a little monoloque to what Kinzo said years ago.
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Old 2010-05-01, 13:56   Link #9676
Oliver
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And well, since it's common for people to mutter the name of the person they think they recognize from distance, or at least this is the case many times in fiction, then I'm not sure if it can be something as complicated as suddenly getting an urge to do a little monoloque to what Kinzo said years ago.
Indeed, but there are very little possible reasons to explicitly and knowingly lie to Erika in this situation. I can only see two:
  • Engaging in very subtle support of the phantom conspiracy, so subtle that there's hardly any point.
  • Trying to confuse Erika with no clear plan behind it.
Erika misinterpreting what Battler says is much more likely, especially considering how little he actually says.

Consider, for example, this sequence:
  • Battler perceives an object which he immediately associates with Kinzo so strongly that he can't help but exclaim 'Grandfather!'
  • But satisfying the red that no person would misidentify Kinzo by sight, he realises his error immediately and stops himself after the first syllable.
  • Upon further observation, he recognises it as an object message from Kinzo to the solver of the epitaph that they are on the right way, and directing the solver further.
  • When questioned about it by Erika, he says "Grandfather told me." meaning that "an object associated with Grandfather symbolically or visually or in some other manner is a message to me -- and not you, because, not being of Ushiromiya, you don't understand it's meaning and can only see it's pointing in a different direction now". As he's not terribly pleased with Erika by that point already, he doesn't elaborate.
  • Erika interprets it as getting an actual message from a Kinzo that was present here, but drops the topic after Battler doesn't respond.

...Actually, I think I know what could be pointing the other way. It's probably a One Wing ornament or statue or something, that was rotated when the mechanism was activated. One wing is a symbol very strongly associated with Kinzo himself, more than anyone else, even any other Ushiromiya. Battler could have initially recognised it as the wing on Kinzo's cape, embroidered in gold and glittering in the darkness. Then the other point of this scene is giving one more epitaph hint to the reader.
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Old 2010-05-01, 14:10   Link #9677
Kaisos Erranon
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Then how does Featherinne know about Rosa's meeting with Beatrice in 1967. How does she know about Kyrie's jealously, even though Ange had all of her mother's diaries. How is she aware of Krauss being scammed, Natsuhi's dead child, and other private family matters. You can't say she made all that up or just shook a magic 8 ball and decided on it.
Simple. Her true identity must be someone who is aware of all these things. Someone who was on the island that day.
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Old 2010-05-01, 14:30   Link #9678
Oliver
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Simple. Her true identity must be someone who is aware of all these things. Someone who was on the island that day.
I always thought she was...



...meant to be the 19th. Pardon the pun.
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Old 2010-05-01, 14:40   Link #9679
Kaisos Erranon
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Actually, if you didn't already know, her name is a Higurashi in-joke.

Featherinne

Feather + in

=

Hane + yuu (or something like that)

Han + yuu

Hanyuu


Anyway, if Kanon is, in fact, a woman, I suspect that she's Hachijou. If not, I have no idea who she's supposed to be. I guess Asumu is a possibility if Hachijou is in her 50s, but I've never got that impression.....
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Old 2010-05-01, 14:46   Link #9680
Oliver
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Actually, if you didn't already know, her name is a Higurashi in-joke.
I know, but "19" is the first thing that comes to mind when I see it anyway.
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