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View Poll Results: Angel Beats! - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 93 45.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 58 28.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 36 17.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 5.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.49%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.49%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.99%
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-05-03, 03:44   Link #261
risingstar3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
What i meant by self-serving is that the way she interpreted everything was done in a manner to provide her with an involvement she could antagonize, because that is what she ultimately wanted to do - lash out at something for the pain she believes she unjustifiably suffered. As such she has labeled this "world" as her enemy, the people there who don't agree with her position got the derogatory term NPC (They might, or they might not be - for all we know they, at least partially, might be normal people who decided to go with the flow instead of against it, and thus got labeled as non-essential by Yuri ... another assumption on her part, which haven't really proven themselves to be very accurate), and what she perceived as the highest local authority got labeled as her no1 enemy. All of this combined, true or not, gave her the one thing she wanted - something to lash out at.

Her leadership abilities aren't in question really, they must be rather decent to be able to run this bunch for as long as she had (though to be fair, from the looks of it, Tenshi never really challenged them either with her passive reactions towards the SSS activities), and one must not forget that she is the one who established SSS in the first place - that is, she rallied people to fight for her cause. Her authority over SSS has never been in question really, the opposite if anything - the members are glad to have her there. So yes - it is herself she is serving here, and the SSS, and her interpretation of the information she had has been directed towards one goal: "If a god exists, i want to fight him".

Therefore this domain 'must' be a creation of God she could mess with; therefore Tenshi 'must' be the God's avatar, attacking whom would transmit her frustration. Because if they weren't, she wouldn't have anything to direct her anger at, which is something she is not ready to accept. Though from how the events are shaping up, it will likely come to a point where she won't be able to look away from that possibility any more, and will have to face the conclusion that she has been crusading for naught. Where she goes from there ... we shall see i suppose.
To say the truth, you are trying your best to make Yuri becomes as aggressive idiot as possible there. I have to doubt if it was simply your hatred or was it because you accessed more information than me (and i don't think it was the second one).

In another word, you are putting up a bunches of random assumptions, then find the most easy target among the SSS to lash out all your hatred. Much like how you describe Yuri's action
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:02   Link #262
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I think you're the one who is taking this too personally, risingstar.

Skyfall's arguments are fair and valid. If you have problems with his reasoning, then argue about it. No need to resort to ad hominem
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:03   Link #263
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
To say the truth, you are trying your best to make Yuri becomes as aggressive idiot as possible there. I have to doubt if it was simply your hatred or was it because you accessed more information than me (and i don't think it was the second one).

In another word, you are putting up a bunches of random assumptions, then find the most easy target among the SSS to lash out all your hatred. Much like how you describe Yuri's action
I described Yuri's actions exactly the way i see them presented in the show. You chose to accept her words at face value and as the correct course of action; i chose to doubt them ever since day one because they didn't convince me. You haven't exactly refuted any of my points either. Never did i label her as an aggressive idiot, just a misguided person who is willingly and too eagerly embracing that state because it corresponds with her wishes of lashing out against god. (Which she stated herself in episode 2 is her reason d'etre - she wants to fight god, not fear of reincarnation). I don't hate her or any of the SSS, nor do i like them or have much of sympathy for them either (Which goes for all the characters in this show for me, as there hasn't been enough exposure for anyone to make me feel personally connected to them , something i hope an introduction of more continuous plot will amend) , though i do believe a wake-up call is what Yuri needs to have a second look at her position, which the show is about to deliver from the looks of it.
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:10   Link #264
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
Nothing I saw in the four chapters have changed my initial opinion that Yurippe is an idiot. In fact her behavior is somewhat childish in that she wants to throw a monkey wrench into a system she doesn't understand. Yurippe is assuming that Tenshi is an angel based on supernatural powers in a supernatural place. We know that this afterlife is somewhat abnormal as they are using Christian mythology and in the afterlife there should be no pain(Christian basis).
While I don't disagree with the idea that Yuri is an idiot (though I think there is more to it than that, most of it not quite so charming), this afterlife isn't fully using Christian mythology. The idea of a sort of 'limbo' between death and rebirth, or rebirth at all, is more commonly found in the Buddhistic mythology, though it depends which of the schools you follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
@Keroko
Actually we were given a huge red herring in the OP when it shows her with wings.
True, but I'd think we were used to symbolism in OP's by now. Again, this does not change that many of us believed Yuri's words about this world, Tenshi, NPC's and whatnot. If we did it, how can we expect the people in the universe itself, who would be a dozen times more confused, not to simply grasp onto the first person to explain things.

In my opinion, this is one of Tenshi's mistakes. Many people, Otonashi included, would not have fallen into Yuri's battalion had Tenshi calmly and reasonably explained the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
Also the characters interact with her on a semi daily basis so they would be more familiar with her behavior than we would. How many angels need food or sleep?
To that I would ask: How many angels to do you know that don't? For that matter, how many angels do you know at all?

Imagine, you've died and arrive in a new world, utterly confused. Someone welcomes you and tells you a random girl is an angel. You see that random girl conjuring steel blades out of nothing, use shields that deflect bullet and create after images the likes of which you've only seen in movies and anime.

After witnessing all that, would you with your confused head still not believe that first persons words about the girl being an angel might be true?
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:18   Link #265
Azure King
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after watching this epi i feel sorry for tenchi .. from the beginning of the series until now, it reminds me, when at school, you always have a bunch of kids bulling the odd kid out... quite sad
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:25   Link #266
Jarmel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
While I don't disagree with the idea that Yuri is an idiot (though I think there is more to it than that, most of it not quite so charming), this afterlife isn't fully using Christian mythology. The idea of a sort of 'limbo' between death and rebirth, or rebirth at all, is more commonly found in the Buddhistic mythology, though it depends which of the schools you follow.



True, but I'd think we were used to symbolism in OP's by now. Again, this does not change that many of us believed Yuri's words about this world, Tenshi, NPC's and whatnot. If we did it, how can we expect the people in the universe itself, who would be a dozen times more confused, not to simply grasp onto the first person to explain things.

In my opinion, this is one of Tenshi's mistakes. Many people, Otonashi included, would not have fallen into Yuri's battalion had Tenshi calmly and reasonably explained the situation.



To that I would ask: How many angels to do you know that don't? For that matter, how many angels do you know at all?

Imagine, you've died and arrive in a new world, utterly confused. Someone welcomes you and tells you a random girl is an angel. You see that random girl conjuring steel blades out of nothing, use shields that deflect bullet and create after images the likes of which you've only seen in movies and anime.

After witnessing all that, would you with your confused head still not believe that first persons words about the girl being an angel might be true?
This could be a form of purgatory which would be more consistent with Christian mythology but that's speculation. The main point being that they(the characters) believe that the God in control is the Christian god.

The main problem I have with the characters is that nobody is trying to find out the limits of this world and are fine with playing out this high school fantasy(for the most part anyway). Nobody has tried to run away or tried to blow up the school or just walking in a random direction and seeing how far they can go.

*Points at Dogma*On a more serious note this same issue came up in BSG and I'll admit that I have no clue what an angel does or even looks like but I would argue that the popular view of angels is that of beings who are physical manifestations of God but not constrained by physical limitations. I mean how many pictures or even just mental imagery do we have of Lucifer taking a leak or wanting some chicken. In this case it doesn't matter so much what angels actually are but what would be common sense for the main characters who interact with Tenshi on a daily basis.
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:32   Link #267
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I think you're the one who is taking this too personally, risingstar.

Skyfall's arguments are fair and valid. No need to resort to ad hominem
Why should I not? This is not like A Great Debate or something

Also, it's not like i have information and can attack his private life, family or individual characteristic. I don't even know if he likes Angel Beats or favour any certain character. The only thing i have of Skyfall is his above post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
I described Yuri's actions exactly the way i see them presented in the show. You chose to accept her words at face value and as the correct course of action; i chose to doubt them ever since day one because they didn't convince me. You haven't exactly refuted any of my points either, so i would suggest trying that before attacking my position. Never did i label her as an aggressive idiot, just a misguided person who is willingly and too eagerly embracing that state because it corresponds with her wishes on lashing out against god. I don't hate her or any of the SSS, nor do i like them or have much of sympathy for them either, though i do believe a wake-up call is what Yuri needs to have a second look at her position, which the show is about to deliver from the looks of it.
I plan to put up some argument at first. But It's hard to do that when you assume a lots in your post. Instead, how about i take out some points and if you disagree we can discuss over it? For example....
- 1st paragraph: She didn't call "the people there who don't agree with her position" NPC. She called them NPC due to their behaviors
- 2nd paragraph: She was not the one to establish SSS, or even started rallying people to fight for her cause
- 3rd paragraph: she didn't target Tenshi or even think her as a number 1 enemy simply because she's the God's avatar
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:46   Link #268
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
This could be a form of purgatory which would be more consistent with Christian mythology but that's speculation. The main point being that they(the characters) believe that the God in control is the Christian god.

The main problem I have with the characters is that nobody is trying to find out the limits of this world and are fine with playing out this high school fantasy(for the most part anyway). Nobody has tried to run away or tried to blow up the school or just walking in a random direction and seeing how far they can go.
Actually, Yuri did think of something similar that at one point in the first chapter of the novel.

The later though, agreed. I hope they mention that being tried at some point in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
*Points at Dogma*On a more serious note this same issue came up in BSG and I'll admit that I have no clue what an angel does or even looks like but I would argue that the popular view of angels is that of beings who are physical manifestations of God but not constrained by physical limitations. I mean how many pictures or even just mental imagery do we have of Lucifer taking a leak or wanting some chicken. In this case it doesn't matter so much what angels actually are but what would be common sense for the main characters who interact with Tenshi on a daily basis.
And the popular view of heaven is a cloudy Greek-looking paradise, while the popular view of purgatory is nothing short of a spiraling torture. Considering this afterlife ahas already shattered either which the person believes himself to be in, adjusting their ideas of what an angel is would only be natural. After all, if the place itself doesn't resemble what you always thought, why should the beings that inhabit it?

Again, strange place, total confusion, people start explaining things to you, things start to make sense. It's human nature to accept the things that make sense instead of wondering, that's how gods were created in the first place: to explain the things that didn't make sense.

Yuri and the others are merely doing what humans have been doing for milenia. People don't understand what's going on, someone comes up with an explanation, people go "oh yeah, that makes sense" and believe the explanation.
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:50   Link #269
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Bear in mind that what we have to work with are only theories too. Unless canonically stated by the author, we are basically working on assumptions and crafted ideas. For all we know, Kaname may still well be an Angel, just different from what we usually expect Angels to be.

Also, hindsight is 20/20.

Cheers.
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Old 2010-05-03, 04:53   Link #270
Keroko
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For all we know, Kaname may still well be an Angel, just different from what we usually expect Angels to be.
Good point, and if that is true it would certainly prove my point in turn: We all jump to conclusions, so why do we blame the cast whenever they do it?

Gotta love hindsight.
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Old 2010-05-03, 05:05   Link #271
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
- 1st paragraph: She didn't call "the people there who don't agree with her position" NPC. She called them NPC due to their behaviors
This is but a play on words. She apparently didn't consider the possibility that some people might deliberately choose to follow the rules as legitimate one, as opposed to going against the flow that she sees as the course to take, thus we have the result - the people not participating in her war front have been labeled as unimportant. An NPC. (Which can be further supported by the student list they cracked out of her PC, and which had their names listed along with everyone else).

Quote:
- 2nd paragraph: She was not the one to establish SSS, or even started rallying people to fight for her cause
She was the first to rebel; people flock to her and follow her orders to the letter, both from the usual bunch we see and the Guild personnel. Though it wasn't specifically stated that she is the one to establish SSS (I think, can't check episode 2 right now), it is quite safe to assume she played a prominent role in it at the least. Current day SSS and their activities is exactly what she wishes it to be.

Quote:
- 3rd paragraph: she didn't target Tenshi or even think her as a number 1 enemy simply because she's the God's avatar
Um ...yes she did. You will have to elaborate what you mean by that if you see it otherwise. Since she perceives Tenshi as the one tangible connection to god, the one thing she wishes to fight against, it makes Tenshi her no1 enemy by default. (Or even the only enemy, if she considers everyone else as NPC). In fact, each and every SSS activity we have seen thus far has been so Tenshi centric, it seems messing with her is about the only thing they do on a daily basis, going from "necessity engagements" like when they are trying to lift the food tickets, to "just because we can" (the baseball games and the test scores). Yuri targets Tenshi specifically, which is what the previous two episodes established.
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Old 2010-05-03, 05:34   Link #272
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, Yuri did think of something similar that at one point in the first chapter of the novel.

The later though, agreed. I hope they mention that being tried at some point in the story.



And the popular view of heaven is a cloudy Greek-looking paradise, while the popular view of purgatory is nothing short of a spiraling torture. Considering this afterlife ahas already shattered either which the person believes himself to be in, adjusting their ideas of what an angel is would only be natural. After all, if the place itself doesn't resemble what you always thought, why should the beings that inhabit it?

Again, strange place, total confusion, people start explaining things to you, things start to make sense. It's human nature to accept the things that make sense instead of wondering, that's how gods were created in the first place: to explain the things that didn't make sense.

Yuri and the others are merely doing what humans have been doing for milenia. People don't understand what's going on, someone comes up with an explanation, people go "oh yeah, that makes sense" and believe the explanation.
The route I'm going is that it's probably neither as right now both of those seem way too obvious. Anyway my major issue is not with how they deal with Tenshi but more about how they look at this world. They are too obsessed with the idea of rebelling against the system and not focused on what enemy their fighting or even the rules of the world around them. The way I'm viewing them is a bunch of kids in a club who are just causing problems for everybody else. They haven't shown any serious initiative or serious plans(the results from the past episode was more accidental than anything). I mean they don't even know the name of the person they're supposedly fighting against. All they're doing is causing minor inconveniences instead of things that would destroy the school "order".
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Old 2010-05-03, 05:42   Link #273
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
This is but a play on words. She apparently didn't consider the possibility that some people might deliberately choose to follow the rules as legitimate one, as opposed to going against the flow that she sees as the course to take, thus we have the result - the people not participating in her war front have been labeled as unimportant. An NPC. (Which can be further supported by the student list they cracked out of her PC, and which had their names listed along with everyone else).

She was the first to rebel; people flock to her and follow her orders to the letter, both from the usual bunch we see and the Guild personnel. Though it wasn't specifically stated that she is the one to establish SSS (I think, can't check episode 2 right now), it is quite safe to assume she played a prominent role in it at the least. Current day SSS and their activities is exactly what she wishes it to be.

Um ...yes she did. You will have to elaborate what you mean by that if you see it otherwise. Since she perceives Tenshi as the one tangible connection to god, the one thing she wishes to fight against, it makes Tenshi her no1 enemy by default. (Or even the only enemy, if she considers everyone else as NPC). In fact, each and every SSS activity we have seen thus far has been so Tenshi centric, it seems messing with her is about the only thing they do on a daily basis, going from "necessity engagements" like when they are trying to lift the food tickets, to "just because we can" (the baseball games and the test scores). Yuri targets Tenshi specifically, which is what the previous two episodes established.
Spoiler for The prequel spoiler, hopefully the one we have is correct:
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Old 2010-05-03, 06:44   Link #274
holyman282
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omg yuri is such a bitch.......

I felt so sorry for tenshi.

I've also wondered whether tenshi is actually just like them another human who died and came to this pseudo highschool world. Perhaps the reason she hasn't disappeared even though she goes with the flow is the fact that going with the flow itself is out of the norm for her hence the reason why she still doesn't disappear.

If that is truly the case then I really feel bad for Tenshi.

Otanashi needs to man up and talk to her or befriend her cause no one else on his team will.
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Old 2010-05-03, 07:18   Link #275
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The way I'm viewing them is a bunch of kids in a club who are just causing problems for everybody else. They haven't shown any serious initiative or serious plans(the results from the past episode was more accidental than anything). I mean they don't even know the name of the person they're supposedly fighting against. All they're doing is causing minor inconveniences instead of things that would destroy the school "order".
That's a fairly accurate description... considering they are a bunch of kids in a club causing trouble. It's easy to forget this with many anime ignoring age and portray kids as adults in terms of thinking, but these are still essentially kids. Skipping class and breaking windows is already a major level of disrupting the order for them.
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Old 2010-05-03, 08:08   Link #276
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Originally Posted by aixaum View Post
Is the part where Yui sings, sung by Yui's seiyuu?
I was wondering that too. The voices are quite different.
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Old 2010-05-03, 08:24   Link #277
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They're not the same person...
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Old 2010-05-03, 08:42   Link #278
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I was wondering that too. The voices are quite different.
The song was sung by LiSa, not by Yui's voice actress Eri Kitamura.
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Old 2010-05-03, 09:09   Link #279
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
Also atleast in the first four chapters, we haven't seen any evidence that the teachers are NPCs. In fact based on one of the rules you stated earlier(that the NPCs can't enter the principals office) it would seem the teachers are something different as they rush in after the incident with the gun.
We have. They don't bat an eye when a new student suddenly joins their class, and their class roster automatically updates when new students arrive. Remember, NPC = Non Player Character. In this context, they refer to the characters who are native to that world (the afterlife) -- they are there to maintain the feel of a peaceful school life. And I also stated that that only applies to the student NPCs. Naturally, school faculty have higher access rights than normal students.

And I'm not arguing against Yuri being an idiot. She even openly admits that herself. What ticks me is how you are saying that she didn't plan and research things right and just jumped to conclusions prematurely. If you've really read up to chapter 4, you'd know that she's still not sure on what Kanade actually is at that time, which led her to formulate a plan which capitalized on their current situation, killing two birds with one stone. You do know what I'm referring to, right?

And of course, they're not rebelling for no reason at all. If you payed attention to the exposition in Ep01, you'd know that the SSS (or at least, Yuri) has witnessed, in the past, humans who had either become indistinguishable from the NPCs, or just disappeared while doing regular school activities like how the NPCs do them. Now, this may have been simply a misunderstanding/misobservation, but it presents enough of a threat to their current existence that they chose to not follow the rules just to prevent these accidental disappearances.
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Old 2010-05-03, 11:54   Link #280
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko
In my opinion, this is one of Tenshi's mistakes. Many people, Otonashi included, would not have fallen into Yuri's battalion had Tenshi calmly and reasonably explained the situation.
The problem with Tenshi is that she's too calm lol.
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