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Old 2010-05-12, 14:05   Link #1961
ChainLegacy
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Okay but let's leave the numbers out of it, as far as I'm concerned Goku and Freeza were going toe-to-toe on Namek until Freeza had been in 100% mode too long, which reflects what actually happened on the show because until that point no one seemed to have the upper hand. In fact, Freeza 100% was getting in some good shots from what I saw.
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Old 2010-05-12, 14:10   Link #1962
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King Cold was such a waste =\
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Old 2010-05-12, 15:31   Link #1963
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
King Cold was such a waste =\
I didn't think so. I mean he actually believed Trunks was only able to kill Freeza because of his sword. I don't really care to see more of such an utter dumbass.
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Old 2010-05-12, 18:01   Link #1964
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
He wasn't just a "bit" stronger than Frieza on Namek, he was 25% stronger (150,000,000 / 120,000,000 = 1.25). That's a larger power gap than Nappa vs Piccolo (4000 vs 3500, making Nappa only 14% stronger than Piccolo).
That's actually quite interesting. Did 100% Frieza really max out at 120 Mil? That would mean that Goku was just toying around with him in the beginning of their battle.
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Old 2010-05-12, 18:25   Link #1965
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That's actually quite interesting. Did 100% Frieza really max out at 120 Mil? That would mean that Goku was just toying around with him in the beginning of their battle.
Duh, that was pretty obvious. And no surprise at all, since Goku has always done that. Rather often too.
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Old 2010-05-12, 19:56   Link #1966
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Agreed. There's nothing that indicates Goku got substantially stronger after coming back from Yardrat. As far as we know, he only learned the instantaneous movement technique and how to better control his SS form. He's comparable to how he was when he fought Freeza on Namek.
Even if Goku hadn't trained a single second since he bolted from Namek (which I find highly improbable), wouldn't he still be drastically stronger since he'd finally get a chance to recover from all his injuries? I mean, before he turned SSJ, he got seriously whooped by Frieza. You'd have to figure he'd have an exponential jump in power after he completely recovered, just like he did after the whole Ginyu thing.

That's just my two-cents. I imagine Toriyama would be laughing his ass off if he saw how much thought we're putting into this. =)
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Old 2010-05-12, 22:53   Link #1967
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Duh, that was pretty obvious. And no surprise at all, since Goku has always done that. Rather often too.
I would appreciate it if you could tone down the rhetoric.

I specifically said at the beginning of the fight where it seemed like they were fighting on equal ground. It's fairly obvious that Goku was not taking Frieza serious anymore after his power was steadily decreasing, I'm just curious as to whether or not Goku was really that much stronger (I.e. - 25% stronger) than Frieza from the get go.

Not everyone that watches Dragonball Z is aware of their power levels in each fight, I measured their strength by what I saw. It initially seemed like they were equally powerful at the beginning of their battle, which is what led me to my thoughts in my previous post.
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Old 2010-05-13, 00:27   Link #1968
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...I knew I should've added a smilie there. Didn't mean to insult you or anything.

I know you were refering to the beggining of the fight, in which case yeah none of us could've guessed Goku was toying with him, but you sounded like you only became aware of it after you learned of their diference in power level in this thread, when I think the show itself made it obvious enough that Goku was toying with him the whole time when he himself went "Is this all you've got?" and stopped playing and started kicking Freeza's ass with ease.
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Old 2010-05-13, 00:46   Link #1969
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
...I knew I should've added a smilie there. Didn't mean to insult you or anything.

I know you were refering to the beggining of the fight, in which case yeah none of us could've guessed Goku was toying with him, but you sounded like you only became aware of it after you learned of their diference in power level in this thread, when I think the show itself made it obvious enough that Goku was toying with him the whole time when he himself went "Is this all you've got?" and stopped playing and started kicking Freeza's ass with ease.
Sometimes it's difficult to read text with certain emotions behind them, which is why it's better to avoid speaking like you would with someone in person on forums, some might take offense to certain things. It's quite alright though

I didn't know the difference was so immense from the beginning, I figured that Goku was purposely tiring Frieza out in order to win the fight later, rather than toying with him which is why my post seemed that way.
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Old 2010-05-13, 02:30   Link #1970
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Sometimes it's difficult to read text with certain emotions behind them, which is why it's better to avoid speaking like you would with someone in person on forums, some might take offense to certain things. It's quite alright though

I didn't know the difference was so immense from the beginning, I figured that Goku was purposely tiring Frieza out in order to win the fight later, rather than toying with him which is why my post seemed that way.
True that and good to hear.

And yeah I suppose one could interpret it that way too. What tipped me was, like I said, Goku has been known to play around with his opponent for a while in order to make the fight more interesting before actually getting serious and quickly making short work of them. He did it as far back as in the original Dragonball, against Kuririn in the second Budokai Tenkaichi and then against Tenshinhan in the third one. Both times it looked like they were giving him a run for his money, but then Goku got serious and just outright embarrased them. Well those were sportive fights and not an actual battle like against Freeza, but still.
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Old 2010-05-13, 09:23   Link #1971
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King Cold was such a waste =\
Don't worry,

Spoiler for arc plot:

I mean, what an honor.
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Old 2010-05-13, 11:21   Link #1972
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There's no denying Goku likes to toy with his opponent. Still, I always got the impression that true 100% Freeza could actually stand equal to Goku and that Goku was just biding his time, waiting for Freeza's power to run out.
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Old 2010-05-13, 12:34   Link #1973
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by MushroomSamba View Post
Even if Goku hadn't trained a single second since he bolted from Namek (which I find highly improbable), wouldn't he still be drastically stronger since he'd finally get a chance to recover from all his injuries? I mean, before he turned SSJ, he got seriously whooped by Frieza. You'd have to figure he'd have an exponential jump in power after he completely recovered, just like he did after the whole Ginyu thing.

That's just my two-cents. I imagine Toriyama would be laughing his ass off if he saw how much thought we're putting into this. =)
You'll notice that in the Cell and Buu arcs, the power boosts after recovering from battle aren't nearly as significant as those from the Freeza arc. If they were, the villains wouldn't pose a serious threat.

Indeed, Toriyama would be cracking up at our in-depth discussions concerning power. In all honesty, I don't like discussing power levels in Dragon Ball Z. Basically, the person with the higher power level would always be the victor. There were no other factors that could determine who wins. I always found that to be very one-dimensional. It was the same formula all the time.

In the original Dragon Ball, however, a person with a lower power level could put up a really good fight, and perhaps beat the superior opponent. Skill, intelligence, and technique, actually meant something. This gave the fights more depth, and IMO, made them more interesting.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:05   Link #1974
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It is the evolution of Dragon Ball from a fantasy martial arts themed adventure, to DBZ which was almost the Japanese equivalent of DC style super heroes. I think Toriyama still tries to incorporate tactics in DBZ, but it is less prominent than in DB.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:26   Link #1975
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Indeed, DB had simple but nice tactics in battles. It was explained why Goku was becoming stronger each time IN PRACTICE and not just simply beefing up like on DBZ.

Other than that, the first Cooler movie is titled "The 10 million battle power warriors". Filler or no filler, there is no way someone other than Goku and Cooler had more than 10m in that movie. Piccolo and Vejita had a bit over 1m on Namek. Doesn't that kinda prove that maxed out Goku on Namek is 15m and not 150m?
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Old 2010-05-13, 16:13   Link #1976
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Other than that, the first Cooler movie is titled "The 10 million battle power warriors". Filler or no filler, there is no way someone other than Goku and Cooler had more than 10m in that movie. Piccolo and Vejita had a bit over 1m on Namek. Doesn't that kinda prove that maxed out Goku on Namek is 15m and not 150m?
That's the 2nd Cooler movie you're talking about, and its title is "Clash!! 10,000,000,000 Powerful Warriors". It's only referring to the number of cyborg coolers in the film, not their power levels. This was actually my favorite DBZ movie. What about you guys?
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Old 2010-05-13, 16:34   Link #1977
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Future Trunks had trained for some time already as a super saiyan. Yet Goku was still able to hold him off with a single finger. It seems to me as less likely that Goku, if he was still at the same level as his initial super saiyan transformation, would exceed a Trunks that has trained as a super saiyan for a while.

Therefore I believe it's more likely that Goku has increased his ability as well.
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Old 2010-05-13, 17:26   Link #1978
MushroomSamba
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
That's the 2nd Cooler movie you're talking about, and its title is "Clash!! 10,000,000,000 Powerful Warriors". It's only referring to the number of cyborg coolers in the film, not their power levels. This was actually my favorite DBZ movie. What about you guys?
Hmm, for me, it'd probably come down to either the 12th or 13th movie. The 13th probably had the most interesting story, but the 12th put me in stitches with Goku and Vegeta's fusion snafus, and Goten and Trunks taking on Hitler's army. Random stuff, but highly enjoyable. =)
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:15   Link #1979
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
In all honesty, I don't like discussing power levels in Dragon Ball Z. Basically, the person with the higher power level would always be the victor. There were no other factors that could determine who wins. I always found that to be very one-dimensional. It was the same formula all the time.
Until you get the infinite villains that regenerate from a single cell, so not only do you have to be stronger, but so absolutely stronger so as to completely and entirely obliterate them. Yeah, that made for "fun" battles.
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:24   Link #1980
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It is interesting how Cell could spawn himself but apparently each of his juniors is apparently stronger than an experienced SSJ yet cumulatively their lot is weaker than their creator.
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