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Old 2010-05-13, 13:24   Link #2061
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
Beta Patch 12 today, incoming Roach nerf!!!
WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH THE FORGE NERF?? Oh, let's make Toss even more crappy against air. Because cannons are obviously so strong, (Oh wait, no, with all those anti armored units)

I guess Thors have gotten too buff lately, their increased firing rate actually lets them do a number on immortals.

Roach nerf seems ok...
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:37   Link #2062
ZeroForever
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roach got the biggest nerf I've seen in a while(doubling the food cost is huge even if the cost is the same because you'll need to spawn far more overlords to maintain them, beyond the basic fact that it's about 25 minerals more for 5 it also screws the end game compositions.)

forge nerf is laughable, honestly other then ramp blocking or cannon rushing, and the latter was gonna get a nerf because noobs complained and everyone knew it.

thor buff was unnesscary as having them clunky was suppose to be the draw back. dps against immortals was never really important as barrage already instant killed immortals.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:40   Link #2063
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Well, the 150cc cannons have to be researched now, and also costs 150 energy as opposed to 100 so it's nowhere near as easy to get it off.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:42   Link #2064
Lostdreams
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GG to the roach nerf. Sigh, why make them if you're going to start making them unusable anyways.


I feel like the cannon nerf is good because everybody tries to photon cannon rush a zerg on steppes of war.
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:24   Link #2065
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroForever View Post
roach got the biggest nerf I've seen in a while(doubling the food cost is huge even if the cost is the same because you'll need to spawn far more overlords to maintain them, beyond the basic fact that it's about 25 minerals more for 5 it also screws the end game compositions.)
They are making room for Zerglings and a future buffed Ultralisk. Blizzard want to change the end game compositions, that was the point.
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:37   Link #2066
Demongod86
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future buffed ultralisk!? WTF? 600 HP and massive building destruction isn't buff enough?
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Old 2010-05-14, 01:33   Link #2067
RisArk
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Armored Unit.

Baaaaaaaaaaad. 600 hp is peanuts when everyone and their mothers have +armor damage properties (most notably Maruders)
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Old 2010-05-14, 01:40   Link #2068
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostdreams View Post
GG to the roach nerf. Sigh, why make them if you're going to start making them unusable anyways.


I feel like the cannon nerf is good because everybody tries to photon cannon rush a zerg on steppes of war.
Roach is still pretty strong though. Considering it costs only 75 mineral and 25 gas each, it has higher hp (tank capacity) than marauder, do more damage per hit to light, can regenerate when burrow and maybe come out quicker (can't remember build time). Yeah, marauder is direct counter to the roach but roach is also a counter to hellion rush too. With Thor nerf in the previous patch it can take out thor better too. So I don't think it will be unusable.

About Forge nerf, yeah it seems many people try to cannon rush somehow. I also once got proxy pylon + canon rush in my base (bad scouting for myself), luckily I'm a Terran so I just lift off and land somewhere else.
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Old 2010-05-14, 02:32   Link #2069
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Yeah, marauder is direct counter to the roach but roach is also a counter to hellion rush too.
Marauder once it get's it's slow down up is a counter to anything on the ground.

I find it odd that the SC2 wiki lists Zealots as one of their weaknesses. Maybe if they send Marauders in with auto attack only will zealots beat them, but with any competent level of micro Zealots will always lose that fight.
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Old 2010-05-14, 02:54   Link #2070
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
Marauder once it get's it's slow down up is a counter to anything on the ground.

I find it odd that the SC2 wiki lists Zealots as one of their weaknesses. Maybe if they send Marauders in with auto attack only will zealots beat them, but with any competent level of micro Zealots will always lose that fight.
True, with micro Marauders could beat Zealots not so hard. But if Zealots get Charge upgrade, then Zealots would own Marauder too.
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Old 2010-05-14, 03:52   Link #2071
Who
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I'm on a really bad losing streak right now against all races. I need to watch all the replays cause something horribly wrong if I got beaten my last game due to 9 carriers. Not that I'm saying I'm good as I'm copper league and this entire RTS genre is new to me (last time I played SC or BW was in middle school and it was only campaign).

And by horribly wrong, I mean that my timing in terms of attack and expand are just way off. I got caught by surprise as I was trying to expand so my opponents got several shots off me, effectively killing my army. That and I turtled the last three matches. Stupid stupid stupid.

Basically use the basic Terran build order (or slightly changed):

9/11- Supply at choke
11/11 Barracks, right as supply finishes
13/19 Refinery
14/19 Get first marine to kill the scout
15/19 Orbital Command <-- Not sure whether I should use the scan or MULEs with the initial 50 energy. I'm leaning more towards MULEs.
16/19 Second Barracks

And it all falls apart from there.

Last edited by Who; 2010-05-14 at 04:17.
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Old 2010-05-14, 08:17   Link #2072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who View Post
I'm on a really bad losing streak right now against all races. I need to watch all the replays cause something horribly wrong if I got beaten my last game due to 9 carriers. Not that I'm saying I'm good as I'm copper league and this entire RTS genre is new to me (last time I played SC or BW was in middle school and it was only campaign).

And by horribly wrong, I mean that my timing in terms of attack and expand are just way off. I got caught by surprise as I was trying to expand so my opponents got several shots off me, effectively killing my army. That and I turtled the last three matches. Stupid stupid stupid.

Basically use the basic Terran build order (or slightly changed):

9/11- Supply at choke
11/11 Barracks, right as supply finishes
13/19 Refinery
14/19 Get first marine to kill the scout
15/19 Orbital Command <-- Not sure whether I should use the scan or MULEs with the initial 50 energy. I'm leaning more towards MULEs.
16/19 Second Barracks

And it all falls apart from there.
You definitively should use Mules early on. However, as the game reach midgame, you should save some energy for scans. Depending on the match up, you may have to save more energy for scans than mule.

You can win games in copper to gold leagues by only having a decent macro. Maybe you should look at your macro at mid/lategame.

And your BO seems ok at first. However, what is that BO for? When making BOs, you need to give a clear objective. Are you going for all-in strategies? Are you going for a fast expo? Are you going to harass as early as possible with hellion/reaper/banshee? You have to answer this question when making your early game BO.

Now assuming you are not playing with a strategy in mind. Just playing with the flow and countering whatever your opponent is doing. This is ok for copper league I guess. It will be more a matter of getting the right amount of units and attacking when the opponent can't win the battle. You will depend on your macro, scouting skills, and observing/judging skills. I would try to get a plan before the match and if possible, specific plans (and plan B too) against each match up.

If you know what counter what, just work with your macro and don't let the opponent get map control by doing so. You should seize it. Take control of the Xel'naga towers all the time if possible. Don't turtle too much. Turtling is giving up map control. You can't scout/expand/attack/defend properly without map control.

If you want/need to expand, you need to do something to grant that expo will be up safely and with a good number of workers ready. You should time your attacks/harassment while expanding. They can't attack your expo if they are getting hammered. If you are at disadvantage after an engagement, you should not expanding. You must seize an advantage in other to expand. If you spot your opponent fast expoing, you can assume you are safe to expand too if both players have the similar macro skills. You will get the timing to do stuff as you get more experienced.

In the end it's all up to practice and doing it intelligently.
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Old 2010-05-14, 10:03   Link #2073
Lostdreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
True, with micro Marauders could beat Zealots not so hard. But if Zealots get Charge upgrade, then Zealots would own Marauder too.
by then, marauders would have stim, and zealots can't catch up to stim even with charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
Roach is still pretty strong though. Considering it costs only 75 mineral and 25 gas each, it has higher hp (tank capacity) than marauder, do more damage per hit to light, can regenerate when burrow and maybe come out quicker (can't remember build time). Yeah, marauder is direct counter to the roach but roach is also a counter to hellion rush too. With Thor nerf in the previous patch it can take out thor better too. So I don't think it will be unusable.

About Forge nerf, yeah it seems many people try to cannon rush somehow. I also once got proxy pylon + canon rush in my base (bad scouting for myself), luckily I'm a Terran so I just lift off and land somewhere else.
Roach is not as good as you think, considering how easy they are to counter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Who View Post
I'm on a really bad losing streak right now against all races. I need to watch all the replays cause something horribly wrong if I got beaten my last game due to 9 carriers. Not that I'm saying I'm good as I'm copper league and this entire RTS genre is new to me (last time I played SC or BW was in middle school and it was only campaign).

And by horribly wrong, I mean that my timing in terms of attack and expand are just way off. I got caught by surprise as I was trying to expand so my opponents got several shots off me, effectively killing my army. That and I turtled the last three matches. Stupid stupid stupid.

Basically use the basic Terran build order (or slightly changed):

9/11- Supply at choke
11/11 Barracks, right as supply finishes
13/19 Refinery
14/19 Get first marine to kill the scout
15/19 Orbital Command <-- Not sure whether I should use the scan or MULEs with the initial 50 energy. I'm leaning more towards MULEs.
16/19 Second Barracks

And it all falls apart from there.
Being good at macro will get you up to platinum level play.

Some things you might have been doing wrong.

Macro(You have way too many excessive minerals/gas)

Scouting(You didn't scout to see what the enemy player was planning)

Macro(SCV count. You should as a terran player, optimally have 3 scvs on every gas and mineral field)

Build(Please change the build to suit your play. By cutting scv's in the beginning to make a fast gas and fast raxes, you are cutting down your income to make other things. And as you know, having less income than the other player leads to them getting more income exponentially over time, and you start to fall behind and lose.)

The general problem with playing in the lower leagues is macro and scouting. If you can macro, and scout well, then you can win a lot of your games.
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Old 2010-05-14, 11:42   Link #2074
Jaden
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Always watch your replays and see what you could have done better. Do it even when you lose because of what you think is a single clear mistake, because there is often more to it. See if you were macroing properly, making harvesters, units, more rax, and upgrades. Review your games even when you win, because you will always see something you could improve. That's helped me a whole lot.
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Old 2010-05-14, 12:25   Link #2075
ZeroForever
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you should only need 2~ scv per a mineral field 3 is usually excessive for the cost benefit, forgot who did a graph but typically you only need a max of 23 scv's for saturation at your main. Anymore then that unless you plan on splitting scv's to your expansion is a waste due to diminishing possible returns.

First energy should always be used for mule, you should already have a scv scouting during this time (immediately after supply is done at latest) for funny stuff like proxy gates fast pool etc... the scv should still be scouting around while orbital is creating until the first of your oppnents units come out and they block off there entrance (if they don't it's cheaper to just suicide scv's throughout the game to scout as a mula gives about 270 minerals where as a scv is 50.) either way you shouldn't waste the energy on anything but mula for at least the first 2 times as terren.
Late game saving some energy is nice (though it's honestly more likely to occur after a point due to a player missing mula micro timings)
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Old 2010-05-14, 15:59   Link #2076
Edgewalker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who View Post
I'm on a really bad losing streak right now against all races. I need to watch all the replays cause something horribly wrong if I got beaten my last game due to 9 carriers. Not that I'm saying I'm good as I'm copper league and this entire RTS genre is new to me (last time I played SC or BW was in middle school and it was only campaign).

And by horribly wrong, I mean that my timing in terms of attack and expand are just way off. I got caught by surprise as I was trying to expand so my opponents got several shots off me, effectively killing my army. That and I turtled the last three matches. Stupid stupid stupid.

Basically use the basic Terran build order (or slightly changed):

9/11- Supply at choke
11/11 Barracks, right as supply finishes
13/19 Refinery
14/19 Get first marine to kill the scout
15/19 Orbital Command <-- Not sure whether I should use the scan or MULEs with the initial 50 energy. I'm leaning more towards MULEs.
16/19 Second Barracks

And it all falls apart from there.

I don't see "Send SCV out to scout" in your build order, and that may be the problem.

The biggest change SC2 faces is that certain units counter other unit types way more than counters in SC1 worked now that units is SC2 have damage bonuses vs certain target types added directly to their DPS.

this means you MUST scout. keep an eye on what your oppnent is doing as often as you can because if you see they are going for a certain unit ( carriers ) you can build up a carrier counter ( The THOR's 250 mm cannons rape carriers, as do mass vikings if microed ) . Send one SCV out to scout to see if you need to defend against an initial rush, then start scanning their base ever so often to see what they are up to.
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Old 2010-05-14, 18:15   Link #2077
Eisdrache
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Given that I'm only in copper right now so I believe that I simply don't do the right things but what exactly can Terran do against Protoss? >_> While I can hold off their ground offense usually I get destroyed by an innumerable amount of Void Rays ._.

Mass Viking isn't that hot against super charged Void Rays and Marines+Turrets won't cut it if you get nuked on the ground at the same time ._. I uh don't know the exact order but usually I go 9/11 Supply at choke, 12/19 Barracks, 2nd Supply Depot at choke with 2nd Barracks following, then into Factory and double Starport for either Vikings or fast Banshees+cloak. The SCV used for the Barracks is usually sent to the enemy base after finishing it.

Any general outline how (not) to play vs Protoss?
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Old 2010-05-14, 19:30   Link #2078
Lostdreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Given that I'm only in copper right now so I believe that I simply don't do the right things but what exactly can Terran do against Protoss? >_> While I can hold off their ground offense usually I get destroyed by an innumerable amount of Void Rays ._.

Mass Viking isn't that hot against super charged Void Rays and Marines+Turrets won't cut it if you get nuked on the ground at the same time ._. I uh don't know the exact order but usually I go 9/11 Supply at choke, 12/19 Barracks, 2nd Supply Depot at choke with 2nd Barracks following, then into Factory and double Starport for either Vikings or fast Banshees+cloak. The SCV used for the Barracks is usually sent to the enemy base after finishing it.

Any general outline how (not) to play vs Protoss?
Can you post any replays to see whatever it is that you are doing wrong?
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Old 2010-05-14, 19:45   Link #2079
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Given that I'm only in copper right now so I believe that I simply don't do the right things but what exactly can Terran do against Protoss? >_> While I can hold off their ground offense usually I get destroyed by an innumerable amount of Void Rays ._.

Mass Viking isn't that hot against super charged Void Rays and Marines+Turrets won't cut it if you get nuked on the ground at the same time ._. I uh don't know the exact order but usually I go 9/11 Supply at choke, 12/19 Barracks, 2nd Supply Depot at choke with 2nd Barracks following, then into Factory and double Starport for either Vikings or fast Banshees+cloak. The SCV used for the Barracks is usually sent to the enemy base after finishing it.

Any general outline how (not) to play vs Protoss?
Don't go early factory vs Protoss. If your air harass fails, you're basically screwed. If he goes mass ground and you go vikings, you're screwed.

Usually it is 10 supply/ 12 rax 13 gas, orbital command as soon as rax finishes, and rine/depot. If he's not making early zealots, you can add a tech lab right away. You should keep making marauders whenever possible. Make marines when you can't.

Don't scan the first 2-3 times, but use mule. However, use the extra cash to make a spare barracks and float it over. Protoss have a lot harder time shooting down your rax than the other 2 races; usually the rax lives long enough to see what you need to see.

Pressure him with 3 rax and get as many marauders as you can. Use your rax to find any stargate that warps in. You'll have plenty of time to get a reactor and turrets. I like to spend money on the turret range upgrade; I dunno if that helps.

I also like getting an ebay anyways, just for the sake of getting upgrades.

Do not go up his entrance recklessly, else you could be force fielded.

If he's just turtling in, you can take an expo.

Later on, save up some for scans. You will need to use your extra gas and get reactor starport vikings/medivacs. If you see immortals, you'll need EMP, though marauders are stupidly strong enough anyways.

If you really want easy wins against copper players, just go 9 rax/11 depot and gas. Then get a tech lab/reaper followed by Orbital Command when you have the cash as quickly as you can. Remember to hotkey your production buildings and be sure to keep the reapers alive. Chances are they won't even notice their workers dead-- happens at gold level, lol.

If it's a 2 player map, build it in the middle of the map, off to the side a little.

edit: also watch out for cannon rushes in your base, especially if you don't find any buildings in his.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2010-05-14 at 20:00.
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Old 2010-05-14, 22:06   Link #2080
Eisdrache
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Thanks for the ideas. I might post some replays once I figure out how to export them from the beta client ._.

It seems the key is to apply pressure from the early game and continue to harass him with whatever means possible while keeping a constant flow of units and teching your base at the same time. Easier said than done though lol. Also from what I heard (from gold/platinum players) Protoss is pretty much unrushable but personally I never really tried to rush them over. And are you serious about floating your barracks over o_o. A Stalker or two shoot it down quite quickly and wouldn't you rather use it to build units D:

Never had cannon rushes used against me, my walloff usually denies their scouts unless they send it super early and I'm fairly confident about holding off cheese. That's what I believe but I just had a talk with a toss player and he made me unsure about that argh. On the other hand I really really don't want to use cheese myself. I believe it's cheap (6 pool on Steppes of War is the lamest thing ever) to do so while it annoys me more to lose I'd rather go standard build that cheese.
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