AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-05-13, 03:36   Link #9901
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
I guess I'll throw in my own opinion here. I think it might be more useful to look for correspondences between the adults and the stakes based on the stakes' personalities, rather than what sin they represent. It would be more in keeping with the idea that Ronove and Virgilia provide character development for Genji and Kumasawa.

Lucifer: Krauss
  • Oldest sister
  • Insecure, feels herself to be inferior to the other sisters
  • Acts arrogant to conceal her weakness
Leviathan: Kyrie
  • Jealous and selfish
  • Will do anything to win
  • Good at pinpointing weaknesses in others
  • Self-styled representative of the younger sisters to Lucifer (?)
Satan: Natsuhi
  • Easily angered and speaks scornfully to others
  • Most feared among the sisters, so no one talks to her
  • Feels lonely and tries to anger others so they'll be angry with her (?)
Belphegor: Rudolf
  • Hardworking and sensible so others can be slothful
  • Serious nature, most trusted of the sisters
  • Not used to being treated with kindness (?)
Mammon: Eva
  • Will do anything to get what she wants
  • Greed leads her to start conflicts with her sisters
  • The most emotionally honest
  • Close connection to Ange
Beelzebub: Hideyoshi
  • Gourmet, connection to food
  • Serves as a calming influence among the sisters
  • Has a competitive streak with Mammon (Eva) (?)
Asmodeus: Rosa
  • Youngest sister
  • Wants to fall in love
  • Treated affectionately by everyone, but not taken seriously

Having written it all out, now I wonder if the age ordering actually lines up completely. Based on the dates on the umineco.info timeline, it seems to work out if you just switch Eva with Kyrie, and there are some points that fit better that way. But then there's Beelzebub's competition with Mammon, so I'm not sure.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 05:22   Link #9902
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
So I was looking at episode one again and looked at the order of deaths from the standpoint of the ranking system and who died up the last twilight. Jessica was the highest ranking Ushiromiya left alive during the period when Natsuhi was killed by the gun. Is it possible for Natsuhi to be the accomplice? I mean I know the red says that she is no murderer but does that prevent her from being an accomplice? I mean she could be conspiring with the killer so that in Natsuhi's mind Jessica could become the next head. That letter that Natsuhi received probably wasn't about the man from 19 years ago but a threat to Natsuhi about their agreement. Also she could be the person who had placed the letter on the table. Battler's back was turned to the portrait during the moments when Natsuhi placed the tuna on the table, she was also the one to notice it and make an extremely big deal about it. Another thing I find extremely suspicious is the blatant fact Kinzo was already dead. Why didn't she tell everyone about Kinzo's status when her husband had died. Was it Krauss that was her main motivation behind keeping Kinzo's status a secret? Or was it part of a plan to make Jessica the head all along? I mean the timing is too perfect when Kinzo's burnt body is found.
The killer had killed in an order that would make Jessica the next head without arousing suspicions.
I bet this was a deal the killer and Natsuhi made. But at the end the Killer betrayed Natsuhi with the contents of that latter in the parlor and killer her when she was lured out. The letter was also taken so what was written in it probably had something to do with the deal. It could have also potentially revealed the identity of the killer if I can say that.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 07:02   Link #9903
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Now that I think about it we haven't even gotten a mention of any male Sumaderas have we? Does that mean that the Sumadera family prefers a power structure of the Matriarchal style rather then Kinzo's Patriarchal style?
Yes that's how it works with the Sumadera. At the very least they don't think it's a problem to have a woman as the head. They are kinda like the Sonozaki...
__________________

Jan-Poo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 07:49   Link #9904
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yes that's how it works with the Sumadera. At the very least they don't think it's a problem to have a woman as the head. They are kinda like the Sonozaki...
Not quite.

Quote:
`To the outside world, women of the Sumadera family were trained to be in a position to support and defer to men.`@
`......But in actuality, a strong leadership was demanded of them so that they could manage all of the common people.`@
`A role literally as a landlady was demanded of them.`
It's a slightly different arrangement than just one 'head' -- women get the internal affairs while the men get foreign affairs.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 07:57   Link #9905
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
So I was looking at episode one again and looked at the order of deaths from the standpoint of the ranking system and who died up the last twilight. Jessica was the highest ranking Ushiromiya left alive during the period when Natsuhi was killed by the gun. Is it possible for Natsuhi to be the accomplice? I mean I know the red says that she is no murderer but does that prevent her from being an accomplice?
Natsuhi has to be involved in something. As I've pointed out a few pages previously, there is no reason for keeping Kinzo's body around and intact after he's dead if the plan is to declare him missing as it has been described in Ep5, no good place to keep it other than the studio itself, and no way to do that without Natsuhi's active support.

Therefore she was at least involved in a plan which required using Kinzo's body at some point, and that one plan has been around for a year, all the time since Kinzo originally died. Whether that plan included murdering anyone or not and whether Natsuhi actually expected anyone to die is not quite clear.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 08:04   Link #9906
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Natsuhi has to be involved in something. As I've pointed out a few pages previously, there is no reason for keeping Kinzo's body around and intact after he's dead if the plan is to declare him missing as it has been described in Ep5, no good place to keep it other than the studio itself, and no way to do that without Natsuhi's active support.

Therefore she was at least involved in a plan which required using Kinzo's body at some point, and that one plan has been around for a year, all the time since Kinzo originally died. Whether that plan included murdering anyone or not and whether Natsuhi actually expected anyone to die is not quite clear.
While I agree with you that it's pointless to keep it intact, we might be able to pass this off on Natsuhi's delusions. As we saw in Episode 5, she was honestly convinced that Kinzo was still wandering around the mansion grounds like he was still alive. Since it seems Krauss had long since passed off control of the "pretend Kinzo's still alive" scheme to Natsuhi, she might've ordered the servants to keep his body intact, if she felt he was still alive.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 08:19   Link #9907
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
While I agree with you that it's pointless to keep it intact, we might be able to pass this off on Natsuhi's delusions. As we saw in Episode 5, she was honestly convinced that Kinzo was still wandering around the mansion grounds like he was still alive. Since it seems Krauss had long since passed off control of the "pretend Kinzo's still alive" scheme to Natsuhi, she might've ordered the servants to keep his body intact, if she felt he was still alive.
But in Ep1, she is more or less the only one who can burn it, which would clash with this idea a lot.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 08:30   Link #9908
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Natsuhi has to be involved in something. As I've pointed out a few pages previously, there is no reason for keeping Kinzo's body around and intact after he's dead if the plan is to declare him missing as it has been described in Ep5, no good place to keep it other than the studio itself, and no way to do that without Natsuhi's active support.

Therefore she was at least involved in a plan which required using Kinzo's body at some point, and that one plan has been around for a year, all the time since Kinzo originally died. Whether that plan included murdering anyone or not and whether Natsuhi actually expected anyone to die is not quite clear.
Yeah there is something going on with Natsuhi without a doubt. Being delusional maybe Natsuhi didn't do anything at all that possibility is also there. Only the servants and krauss and Natushi know of Kinzo's body. It's pretty obvious at this point someone faked their death. Natsuhi can be an accomplice but there is only so much you can do within the group.

The only reason I thought of the murder was for the headship was due to the fact the highest ranked Ushiromiyas were killed early on, and the highest remaining Ushiromiya was in fact Jessica.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 08:36   Link #9909
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
But in Ep1, she is more or less the only one who can burn it, which would clash with this idea a lot.
I'm not sure. The body was most likely put in the incinerator during the first night, since the mansion already stinks of burning body/chemicals in the body by the time everyone wakes up. This means anyone could've begun burning the body, provided they had access to Kinzo's room.
It's sort of like the whole "blame Natsuhi" act from Episode 5. Since she was the first to go to bed early, she has the weakest alibi. If Ryuukishi is trying to draw parallels between the question Episode and it's corresponding core Episode, I'd think there would be less reasons to suspect Natsuhi.
Notable though, this actually makes Genji very suspicious for the burning, since he's the only one with access to Kinzo's room when it's locked.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 08:46   Link #9910
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Yeah there is something going on with Natsuhi without a doubt. Being delusional maybe Natsuhi didn't do anything at all that possibility is also there. Only the servants and krauss and Natushi know of Kinzo's body. It's pretty obvious at this point someone faked their death. Natsuhi can be an accomplice but there is only so much you can do within the group.

The only reason I thought of the murder was for the headship was due to the fact the highest ranked Ushiromiyas were killed early on, and the highest remaining Ushiromiya was in fact Jessica.
The first twilight of Episode 1 is the most likely first twilight to be faked upon discovery. The other one's are surrounded by red texts, which make establishing whether or not they are dead much harder. Natsuhi awareness of the fact is something I'm not sure of. She's either an extraordinary actor, which we have no proof of her being, or she is not aware.

Actually, if there are no adults to inherit the headship, I'm pretty sure the headship would be inherited by George, the oldest male of the Ushiromiya family. Then again, I'm not sure what Japan's inheritance laws are of if they would have any effect on this, but with how partriarch-orientated the Ushiromiya are, this seems more likely to me.

Last edited by Raiza Sunozaki; 2010-05-13 at 09:09. Reason: Episode 1, not 5...
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 09:42   Link #9911
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
I have to agree the 1st is the easiest one to fake and who knows it could be Krauss that faked his death for all we know. The only thing we can be sure of from Natsuhi is her delusions, aside from that we don't know anything it can go either way with her.

The Ushiromiya's ranking system is pretty strict what with the adults split into two groups during dinner and all, I think Jessica said she was the next in line. In Episode 1 she said she didn't want it. So I think the Ushiromiyas stick to the Rankings. But technically it would be Jessica's husband who would become the next head.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 10:24   Link #9912
Raiza Sunozaki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I have to agree the 1st is the easiest one to fake and who knows it could be Krauss that faked his death for all we know. The only thing we can be sure of from Natsuhi is her delusions, aside from that we don't know anything it can go either way with her.

The Ushiromiya's ranking system is pretty strict what with the adults split into two groups during dinner and all, I think Jessica said she was the next in line. In Episode 1 she said she didn't want it. So I think the Ushiromiyas stick to the Rankings. But technically it would be Jessica's husband who would become the next head.
She is the next head following Krauss. If Krauss was to die before he inherited headship, the headship would be inherited by Eva or possibly Rudolf. Jessica/her husband would only inherit the headship if Krauss inherited it before he died. And if she didn't have a husband before Krauss died, the headship might be passed to George anyway, or go to Eva or Rudolf.
Raiza Sunozaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 10:35   Link #9913
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
The Ushiromiya's ranking system is pretty strict what with the adults split into two groups during dinner and all, I think Jessica said she was the next in line. In Episode 1 she said she didn't want it. So I think the Ushiromiyas stick to the Rankings. But technically it would be Jessica's husband who would become the next head.
I believe that "family head" is an internal family-use term, which has to do with the Japanese inheritance laws. Up until 2003, Japan had a 70% inheritance tax. (It's apparently 50% now.) Which implies that if any property changes hands in the normal inheritance procedure with government involvement, it results in taxes which may actually be impossible to pay at all, and will chew up almost all of the inheritance.

To sidestep this, the transfer of 'headship', that is, control and legal ownership of joint family property, has to go outside the inheritance laws if the descendants are to receive anything. A natural way is to attach these property rights to the title of 'family head', which should actually be transferable during life, or at least magically jump to the next in line through some kind of legal fiction at the moment the current one is dead, bypassing the concept of property inheritance.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 13:22   Link #9914
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I have to agree the 1st is the easiest one to fake and who knows it could be Krauss that faked his death for all we know. The only thing we can be sure of from Natsuhi is her delusions, aside from that we don't know anything it can go either way with her.
I don't think it is possible for Krauss to fake his death. Krauss only has half a face and you can see his brains (Going by Manga here) Shannon whose face is also like this we can get around because Battler doesn't see the corpse so it is possible that it isn't there or is actually Kanon's corpse. All others only have their face smashed, so it is possible, but boy that must have taken a long time to get that make-up right.

Then again have you seen that scene in the manga, there teeth are all smashed and everything. Another question I have for the 1st twlight is; in both the anime and the manga the bodies are mostly neatly against walls or boxes in the front so you see them right away; but why is Shannon's in the back being blocked by stuff? All the others you can see upon openning the shutter, so why is it only Shannon's that is placed in the back behind a stack of boxes?
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-15 at 07:52.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 13:48   Link #9915
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
It's mentioned in the original VN that Shannon is out of direct view. Only Hideyoshi and Kanon see her corpse. (Also, Episode 3, first twilight, Shannon's corpse is behind a couch and Hideyoshi is the one who looks at it, though in the anime she's in sitting in a chair, and several people examine her closely.)

Last edited by rogerpepitone; 2010-05-13 at 14:05.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 15:17   Link #9916
ErenselTheJester
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
I think witness accounts still account for a person's alibi. The reason being is that in order to accuse of someone faking their death, you have to accuse the people who have seen his or her corpse of being accomplices.
ErenselTheJester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 15:30   Link #9917
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
The reason being is that in order to accuse of someone faking their death, you have to accuse the people who have seen his or her corpse of being accomplices.
Why? Why isn't it possible to fool someone with a fake corpse?
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 15:48   Link #9918
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I guess I'll throw in my own opinion here. I think it might be more useful to look for correspondences between the adults and the stakes based on the stakes' personalities, rather than what sin they represent. It would be more in keeping with the idea that Ronove and Virgilia provide character development for Genji and Kumasawa.
I like the list. I'll add on something:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura
Leviathan: Kyrie
  • Self-styled representative of the younger sisters to Lucifer (?)
Kyrie is the one who is basically in charge of the plot to reveal Kinzo's death. She's the representative of that group, all of whom are the younger siblings.

Also, this might not be worth anything, but the order you listed is Krauss, Kyrie, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rosa. It has been speculated before that maybe Krauss and Kyrie are Battler's parents. That would pair Natsuhi and Rudolf together. Eva and Hideyoshi are next to each other on the list, and Rosa doesn't have a spouse.

And as much as I like the idea of parents = stakes, there's a huge setback in EP2. The adults (except Rosa) should all be dead at the first twilight, so what does it mean when the stakes are killing people after that? Is it possible for the adults to still be alive, or should it be interpreted as something else?
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 16:47   Link #9919
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why? Why isn't it possible to fool someone with a fake corpse?
In some cases it is possible, but in others like Shannon's corpse in ep1, she only has half a head, that is impossible to fake, therefore if she isn't actually dead the people who see her corpse must be accomplices or lying for their own reasons.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-15 at 07:52.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-13, 17:04   Link #9920
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
If you are working on the stakes please be free to check that
I hope it is helpful ^^
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.