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Old 2010-05-13, 12:17   Link #2401
ChainLegacy
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That's not my point. I assume that you are capable of those things. Rather, some scientists would say that the creation of the universe is still within the bounds of their field, even if we do not understand every facet of the subject. So in their eyes religion and science can't coexist, since religion presumes to know the answer without using the scientific method.
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Old 2010-05-13, 13:20   Link #2402
Konakaga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agito Akiyama View Post
Born Jewish but later decided I'm an Agnostic Atheist (If that's the correct term)
I do believe in god though I don't believe in the bible and the traditions, It's fun and everything but meh.
Given what you said I think you are more of an Agnostic Theism than Agnostic Atheist. As the the first is the "view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence"; while the seconds one "are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist."
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Old 2010-05-13, 13:21   Link #2403
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
That's not my point. I assume that you are capable of those things. Rather, some scientists would say that the creation of the universe is still within the bounds of their field, even if we do not understand every facet of the subject. So in their eyes religion and science can't coexist, since religion presumes to know the answer without using the scientific method.
And my point is that God himself, not the creation of the universe, is not within the bounds of their field. Any explanation that scientists can come up with, through the scientific method, for the origin of the universe is irrelevant to the statement "God created."

So yes, religion presumes to know an answer. But that doesn't mean that science is trying to answer the same question.
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Old 2010-05-13, 13:28   Link #2404
ChainLegacy
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Explain to me how it is irrelevant. I'm not convinced just because you claim it as such.
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Old 2010-05-13, 13:35   Link #2405
monster
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Explain to me how it is irrelevant. I'm not convinced just because you claim it as such.
Okay, let's say I've prepared a cake to be served. And then you come up with an explanation of how that cake is made. Well, your explanation may or may not be true. But it's irrelevant to the statement I've prepared the cake.
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Old 2010-05-13, 14:25   Link #2406
zarqu
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I'm an atheist. Better yet, you could say I'm an anti-theist.

That's not a religion, though. Atheism is not a religion, either.

On some days I do believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Old 2010-05-13, 14:51   Link #2407
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Okay, let's say I've prepared a cake to be served. And then you come up with an explanation of how that cake is made. Well, your explanation may or may not be true. But it's irrelevant to the statement I've prepared the cake.
Sure, but that's an analogy. It is a tool for illustrating understanding. It doesn't mean anything, factually. In the case of the universe's creation, I would say the criteria of relevance is quite a bit different from baking a cake...
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:16   Link #2408
monster
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Sure, but that's an analogy. It is a tool for illustrating understanding. It doesn't mean anything, factually. In the case of the universe's creation, I would say the criteria of relevance is quite a bit different from baking a cake...
I guess my illustration failed then.

Okay, how about going directly into the matter:

I say God created the universe. You say the universe came to be when a big explosion scattered matter and energy into space which formed stars, planets, etc. (Substitute as necessary with whatever the current scientific theory is right now.)

Do you see how the second statement is irrelevant to the first statement? The second statement neither confirms nor denies nor has anything to do with the first statement. Just like describing how a cake was made has nothing to do with the statement that someone prepared the cake.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:18   Link #2409
zarqu
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Who created God, then ? Who designed the designer ?

What is that ? The Designer is an uncaused entity, uncaused cause ? Why not skip a step then, and say that the universe had no cause.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:23   Link #2410
monster
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Who created God, then ? Who designed the designer ?
That depends. By Christian definition, God is not a creation, so no one and nothing created him.
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What is that ? The Designer is an uncaused entity, uncaused cause ? Why not skip a step then, and say that the universe had no cause.
If we're going by Christianity, then God himself is the cause.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:40   Link #2411
Vexx
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hmmmm, I'm going to recommend some study of philosophy or logic as that's a recursive dead end: "its elephants all the way down" in another form. Basically, you're asserting God as an axiom (unproven assertion) to this belief system, the lattice on which you build other ideas on. Problem is, unlike geometric axioms which can be tested for self-consistency and usually have implicit assumptions under them (like the space you're working in is flat) - there's no test for this axiom. It is taken on "faith" in the true meaning of the word.

As for the Big Bang Theory, the "Here be Dragons" line keeps getting pushed back every year with new data or better models.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:43   Link #2412
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That is a paradox here, if everything is caused by something and that something is caused by something else, then indeed it appears that even God making the cosmos for a reason (out of love for example) is not enough of an explanation. Why did he made the cosmos at a specific time (the beginning of time)? He didn't love it before that? Being outside of time is not an excuse either. If the world is supposed to end one day then will the cosmos disappear? Is the chain of reaction going to stop there? So what, the devil is the reason there is cause and causality when all God wanted was to perform an action without reaction?
All the above seem to contradict anything you may think and it all comes down to perceiving time as a linear portion. That is a line with a beginning and an end. But as I stated on another topic, (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=89061) if time is not perceived as linear but as a dot (zero dimensions) then everything makes sense.
Just think about it. The answers will pop up by themselves.
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Old 2010-05-13, 15:49   Link #2413
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
It is taken on "faith" in the true meaning of the word.
Indeed.
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As for the Big Bang Theory, the "Here be Dragons" line keeps getting pushed back every year with new data or better models.
On the same old map though. Nothing to do with religion. At least, as far as Christianity is concerned.
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That is a paradox here, if everything is caused by something and that something is caused by something else...
What are you referring to there?
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Old 2010-05-13, 17:35   Link #2414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
What are you referring to there?
Cause and causality, an endless chain of events.
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Old 2010-05-13, 18:19   Link #2415
monster
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Cause and causality, an endless chain of events.
If everything is caused by something, then there's nothing else to cause that something.
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:17   Link #2416
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Indeed. On the same old map though. Nothing to do with religion. At least, as far as Christianity is concerned.
Depends which Christianty you're talking about.
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:21   Link #2417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert View Post
If everything is caused by something, then there's nothing else to cause that something.
Isn't this wrong?
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:14   Link #2418
monster
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Depends which Christianty you're talking about.
I'm talking about the Christianity that believes that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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Isn't this wrong?
How so?
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:15   Link #2419
Leo Keichi
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Sometime ago I thought about this problem about causality, and came to the conclusion there are only two possible explanations:

1) The universe came to existence by itself, without a creator (which I think is kinda strange, because we don't see newer Big-bangs. I mean, if there was the first one, there should be others as well).

2) The universe had a creator, who came to existence by himself. But then he died. This one looks more plausible to me.
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:22   Link #2420
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