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Old 2010-05-13, 17:06   Link #9921
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
The adults (except Rosa) should all be dead at the first twilight, so what does it mean when the stakes are killing people after that? Is it possible for the adults to still be alive, or should it be interpreted as something else?
Not with the context of the red anyway.

If we represent the stakes as people it causes all kinds of problems. In episode 2 for example Battler George and Rosa are in the chapel the whole time, and it's not even 5 minutes after they get back that George says Jessica is missing and they go look for her. The only people who can enter Jessica's room and lock it are the servants and Nanjo unless you think like Beatrice suggested and she locked the room herself and faked her death.

Episode 3 would be even weirder with those representations. Whose left to attack them? Nutsuhi, Krauss, Eva, Nanjo, George, Jessica, and Battler.

Thinking that the stakes represent killers makes it so we have to move people around all the time, and it gets really hard to do that when the red requires them to do certain things like close the window when George leaves and such.

I just don't like the stake idea. It's convoluted. It's been around forever. And like I said before if it had any merit it would've been hinted in Chiru by now. Virgilia and Ronove are different. They appeared to give Battler hints , and they seem to represent something in their representing character's memories. The stakes were used originally to get Battler to beleive in magic and stop thinking. Maybe they could represent people who create closed rooms and people who hold the stakes, but not anything too complicated.
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Old 2010-05-13, 18:52   Link #9922
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
And as much as I like the idea of parents = stakes, there's a huge setback in EP2. The adults (except Rosa) should all be dead at the first twilight, so what does it mean when the stakes are killing people after that? Is it possible for the adults to still be alive, or should it be interpreted as something else?
I thought that the stakes were the fantasy's side's pawns. And the adults were the other side's pawns. Like for example people say that Maria represents the black king and Battler the white king but you wouldn't say Maria represents Battler.

So it's not that they are actually the adults, it's just that they are across from the adults if Rokkenjima were a real game board. And you can see that the stakes can capture other pieces, like how the pawns can captures knights, bishops and queens. Etc.

Anyways, it's just a metaphor. Like Judoh said, I don't think this will be of much value...

Although it is fun. If I were to line up the anti-fantasy side it might be something like:

White side
Pawns: Parents + Nanjo
Rooks/Knight/Bishop pairs: George + Shannon, Jessica + Kanon, Gouda + Kumasawa
King: Battler
Queen: ???

Which raises the question.. if Maria IS the black king then we're short one person on the anti-fantasy side. Who is Battler's queen? ... Erika?! <trollface> Ange?

Anyways, I'm not sure how much this metaphor is supposed to hold up. If it must absolutely hold then we are technically missing a person.
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Old 2010-05-13, 19:48   Link #9923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post

Although it is fun. If I were to line up the anti-fantasy side it might be something like:

White side
Pawns: Parents + Nanjo
Rooks/Knight/Bishop pairs: George + Shannon, Jessica + Kanon, Gouda + Kumasawa
King: Battler
Queen: ???

Which raises the question.. if Maria IS the black king then we're short one person on the anti-fantasy side. Who is Battler's queen? ... Erika?! <trollface> Ange?

Anyways, I'm not sure how much this metaphor is supposed to hold up. If it must absolutely hold then we are technically missing a person.
You forgot Genji.
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Old 2010-05-13, 20:07   Link #9924
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Ohhh.. right. I forgot there are 16 people but 17 personalities, not including Erika.

So, if you want to avoid a cross dressing Genji or Gouda, then Kumasawa would be the 'Queen.' ... Although if she's doing anything it's all hidden from Battler and the readers.
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Old 2010-05-13, 20:17   Link #9925
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
And as much as I like the idea of parents = stakes, there's a huge setback in EP2. The adults (except Rosa) should all be dead at the first twilight, so what does it mean when the stakes are killing people after that? Is it possible for the adults to still be alive, or should it be interpreted as something else?
Well, I suppose you could argue that the vessel has to be awakened, which generally happens when a character dies (Genji in ep3, Stakes as adults in ep2). Of course there's myriad contradictions of this (stakes in ep3 while most adults are still alive, Virgilia active in ep4 when Kumasawa is still alive). So I'm not sure it's meant to mean "this meta-character represents this real character and when one kills so is the other!" It would obviously be too easy to solve everything if it were such a simple cipher; everything would have already "clicked."
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:28   Link #9926
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
So it's not that they are actually the adults, it's just that they are across from the adults if Rokkenjima were a real game board. And you can see that the stakes can capture other pieces, like how the pawns can captures knights, bishops and queens. Etc.
I think this might be the best way to interpret it. Like Renall said, there are contradictions and would be too simple to think they literally represented the person. So they might just be pieces on the opposing side of the board and don't really interfere with the mystery.

But at the same time, how much are we able to interpret from the fantasy scenes? Almost the entire game of EP4 is a fantasy, so naturally we would need some clues, right? Aside from Battler's investigation at the end, there isn't much objective evidence. So how much of the fantasy scenes can we trust?
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Old 2010-05-13, 21:53   Link #9927
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We could just interpret the fantasy scenes as a blue truth/red truth argument between the victims and the murderer before the murders happen. Because that's essentially what happens whenever Kanon or somebody gets into a duel with the stakes anyway. It was said that the stakes have a blue truth affect in episode 5 too so why can't Kanon have a red truth affect?
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Old 2010-05-14, 08:24   Link #9928
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
We could just interpret the fantasy scenes as a blue truth/red truth argument between the victims and the murderer before the murders happen. Because that's essentially what happens whenever Kanon or somebody gets into a duel with the stakes anyway. It was said that the stakes have a blue truth affect in episode 5 too so why can't Kanon have a red truth affect?
Because only witches can use the red truth, with the exception of those permitted by a witch (like Battler in Episode 4). Since all witches originate from humans, both witches and humans can use the blue text, but only witches can use the red truth. Futhermore, all Game Masters originate from being witches, so while Game Masters can use all three colours, no one else can use the gold truth.
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Old 2010-05-14, 10:04   Link #9929
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I'm curious about something....

In the beginning, wasn't it Battler's original Intention to prove that witches don't exsist AT ALL in the real world? Including not only the 4th and 5th, but everyday before AND after those 2 days...

Cause now in EP 5, it seems, to me anyway, he just wants to prove that witches didn't commit the crime on October 4th and 5th...

Although I've been told that what I've seen about Battler's intentions in EP 5 has always been his intentions from the beginning.

So, What WAS Battler's intentions orignally from the Tea Party of EP 1 and on?
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Old 2010-05-14, 10:30   Link #9930
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Because only witches can use the red truth, with the exception of those permitted by a witch (like Battler in Episode 4). Since all witches originate from humans, both witches and humans can use the blue text, but only witches can use the red truth. Futhermore, all Game Masters originate from being witches, so while Game Masters can use all three colours, no one else can use the gold truth.
I don't think that's true. The red truth is something that everyone can use, but it can only manifest itself in the metaworld. In other words the boundaries of the red truths are not limited by the person who says it, but by the place.
In EP6 however it is explained that even in the real world there are some cases where you can reach a level of certainty equal to that of a red truth.
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Old 2010-05-14, 13:27   Link #9931
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Because only witches can use the red truth, with the exception of those permitted by a witch (like Battler in Episode 4). Since all witches originate from humans, both witches and humans can use the blue text, but only witches can use the red truth. Futhermore, all Game Masters originate from being witches, so while Game Masters can use all three colours, no one else can use the gold truth.
Well Jan-poo beat me to what I was going to say. It doesn't necessarilly only have to be used by witches. Actually that wouldn't make sense since Dlanor is not really a demon or a witch, but he's a familiar.

What I'm saying though is that those duels in the fantasy scenes might represent an argument before the actual murders that can equate to what happens in a red truth/bluetruth debate. They actually use red and blue swords during the fights, and like I said in episode 5 it was said the stakes have a blue truth affect. It's not like what they say actually affects your mentality on the game or anything. And there should be things even Kanon is 100% sure of about himself or others. All it is is argument with whomever is a killer between the victim.
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Old 2010-05-14, 13:37   Link #9932
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think that's true. The red truth is something that everyone can use, but it can only manifest itself in the metaworld. In other words the boundaries of the red truths are not limited by the person who says it, but by the place.
In EP6 however it is explained that even in the real world there are some cases where you can reach a level of certainty equal to that of a red truth.
Like How Natsuhi uses red in the closet in episode 5
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Old 2010-05-14, 14:21   Link #9933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
I'm curious about something....

In the beginning, wasn't it Battler's original Intention to prove that witches don't exsist AT ALL in the real world? Including not only the 4th and 5th, but everyday before AND after those 2 days...

Cause now in EP 5, it seems, to me anyway, he just wants to prove that witches didn't commit the crime on October 4th and 5th...

Although I've been told that what I've seen about Battler's intentions in EP 5 has always been his intentions from the beginning.

So, What WAS Battler's intentions orignally from the Tea Party of EP 1 and on?
If I remember correctly:
Battler originally wanted to disprove the existence of magic everywhere I think.

But he gets screwed in Episode 2 when he realizes how difficult it would be to do so (because of the Devil's Proof).

So I think he changes his goals to disprove magic only on the game board (the game board representing Rokkenjima on the days of the family trip).

...This changes in Episode 5 though, where he tries to protect Natsuhi (who is sided with Beatrice!) where he easily could have incriminated her. But that's just because Piece-Battler didn't want his aunt being falsly accused.

So we have our four contenders:

Anti-Fantasy = Battler
Fantasy = Beatrice
Mystery = Erika/Bernkastel
Anti-Mystery = ???

Battler and Erika's goals overlap, but they're not really allies because Erika is a bitch.

I'm sorta interested in who the Anti-Mystery representative will be, though.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2010-05-14 at 14:23. Reason: I learned how to count properly.
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Old 2010-05-14, 14:31   Link #9934
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Ironically, considering Erika and Bernkastel's methods in Episode 5-6, you cannot call them Mystery.
In fact, they are in fact Anti Fantasy, since they just stick with the first "human theory" they grab (or forge).
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Old 2010-05-14, 15:22   Link #9935
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Ironically, considering Erika and Bernkastel's methods in Episode 5-6, you cannot call them Mystery.
In fact, they are in fact Anti Fantasy, since they just stick with the first "human theory" they grab (or forge).
That is true. So I guess they are "Anti-Fantasy" with "Mystery" methods rather than Battler's "Anti-Fantasy" with logical elements.
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Old 2010-05-14, 16:38   Link #9936
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It reminds me of a scene in _The Benson Murder Case_: Vance produces a case against one suspect. The DA is impressed by the case. Vance then adds that he was just illustrating the weakness of circumstancial evidence; she's completely innocent, but the the DA would have little trouble getting her convicted with that case.
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Old 2010-05-14, 16:45   Link #9937
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I would put Battler as Mystery, since he is trying to solve the mystery. Bern even says in EP 5 that Battler isn't really anti-fantasy, but now that he started seeing everything as a mystery it began destroying the fantasy by that alone (and caused injury to Beato).

As Klashikari said, Erika and Bern don't care how they find the culprit as long as they find one. Anti-Mystery however is a bit trickier at this point since Beatrice clearly wants Battler to find the truth, which completely deviates from the anti-mystery course (a faction that is willing to explain everything by just using magic, no matter how silly it may sound). I guess Anti-Mystery would be whoever the culprit is in all of this, since they seem to try and blame all the murders on the witch.
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Old 2010-05-14, 17:01   Link #9938
Judoh
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Battler's perspective was always neutral like Dlanor's. Sure he denied the witch at every point he could, but he also understood that with the devil's proof it was impossible to prove a witch doesn't exist. And like he said to Maria he can just claim it even though he can't prove it and instantly reach QED. He had some anti fantasy elements, but he understood this point at least. He didn't go to extremes and he didn't implicate others to deny Beatrice and kill her. I think that's the difference between him and Erika. Erika used many of the malicious theories denying the witch only focusing on making someone else a murderer to prove it wasn't a supernatural cause. Battler is more neutral and while he doesn't want to beleive in the witch he doesn't want to beleive anyone in his family or the people who work for them are bad either.

I think the difference between Erika and Battler is that Erika has no problem pinning someone with a whodunnit, but has problems with the Howdunnit. Battler has problems with the whodunnit becuase of his double standard, but he's best at discovering the howdunnits. That's probably why he says the murders are the simplest part of the mystery to solve.

Neither of them focus too much on the whydunnit though.

EDIT: Anti mystery is a bit different though. I think it's best described as doubting the detective. If a detective searches a whole room top to bottom and doesn't find a hidden door and you doubt that a door isn't there that would be anti-mystery. I think it also might be anti-mystery to doubt the detective is the detective. If someone tried to prove that someone else like Kanon were detective in X episode that might be considered anti mystery too.

Actually Battler may have been anti-mystery for the whole of 1-4. He doubts his own perspective so often it's not even funny.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-14 at 17:16.
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Old 2010-05-15, 02:30   Link #9939
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I wonder how many people have gotten to the truth. Ryukishi claims that probably a decent amount of people have it or are close to it. But he thinks WAY TOO HIGHLY of us. For example, he didn't think the readers would get so caught off guard by the fantasy scenes in ep2, he thought a good precent would see through them. But when everyone was lost, he had to change ep3, and include Virgilia and Ronove to help the player. I wonder how Battler would have gotten along without them appearing, like it was orignally planned.

And Battler isn't really anti-mystery, he is more wishy-washy, I feel. He shifts back and forth between Mystery and Fantasy, he tries to fight right on the line that divides the two.

Edit: Is it possible that ep4 is mostly a theory destorying Ep. Because afterall if Umineko is solvable by ourselves, then their must only really be 1 answer per ep (At least) But we have so many theories for each ep, so sometime there must be facts that destory most if not all of our theories, or evidence that points to the answer of that ep, so we can weed out the wrong theories. And I really think Ryukishi should stop putting so much faith in us, he expected at least a small amount of people to solve Umineko after ep4, and what maybe 1 or 2 people only did. I actually really hope we get a solid showing of the answer in ep8, instead of Ryukishi expecting a great number of people to know the answer, but only a small percent actually do, while the rest are completely lost.
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Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-15 at 17:40.
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Old 2010-05-15, 06:35   Link #9940
Ziren
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This might be not important at all but I have been curious for a while now: if certain servants are supposed to be somehow related to the witches' furniture: Like Genji and Ronove, Kumawasa and Virgilia, Shanon/Kanon and Furfur/Zepar, why is it that only Ronove and Virgilia wear the one-winged eagle on their clothing? After all, Shanon and Kanon both have it, while Furfur and Zepar don't.

Or am I just absolutely wrong and magic furniture has nothing to do with humans on the game board?
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