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Old 2010-05-15, 22:00   Link #9961
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
But where do the Goat Heads come in on Rokkenjima? Especially with them ripping Battler apart limb from limb in Episode 2.
(Although Battler was really, really drunk when this happened. I guess the modus operandi can be disregarded, but it's still a thought)
Well, if it's EP2 10th Twilight then technically speaking it was the explosion and/or large-earth-moving event afterwards that tore all the remaining people, bodies and even the mansions apart.

So even though it was said that the bomb or rigged explosion was the core of Beatrice, it was represented by a Goat-man army. I think some of the representations aren't set in stone...
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Old 2010-05-15, 22:07   Link #9962
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, if it's EP2 10th Twilight then technically speaking it was the explosion and/or large-earth-moving event afterwards that tore all the remaining people, bodies and even the mansions apart.

So even though it was said that the bomb or rigged explosion was the core of Beatrice, it was represented by a Goat-man army. I think some of the representations aren't set in stone...
You see, what bothers me about the "explosive incident" theories are that no one in the game picks up on them.

I mean, if I were a detective, I would pick up on an explosion quite quickly. The would at least be some soot somewhere.

Unless we're dealing with some REALLY incompetent detectives here.

I guess Ryukishi could be pulling the wool over our eyes again with the official investigations ("The Great Hinamizawa Disaster" = lies) but wasn't Ange there, too? I know she was on the island in Episode 4. If it were a massive explosion, she probably could have saw the debris.

If it was a small explosion (like one from the boiler room) then problems arise.

I wish I had some sort of "map" to the mansion, because I could see exactly how close the boiler room is to the Epitaph. In Episode 1, the possibility of an explosion killing Battler, George, Jessica, and Maria is likely because they were close together. This fits with the autopsies because only a few pieces of the bodies were found. In other words, an explosion could have disintegrated their bodies and left only blood and selected body pieces.
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Old 2010-05-15, 22:41   Link #9963
Judoh
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Ryukishi confirmed the "explosion accident" in the latest interview so there is no need to question it. And there is not lack of evidence for it. Although most of it comes from the end rolls and 1998 i.e. Maria's jaw, and that environment on the island changed with the mansion missing, and how none of the other corpses besides Maria's are said to be identified. Ryukishi even mentioned these pieces of evidence himself.
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Old 2010-05-15, 23:13   Link #9964
Ziren
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Well, if it's EP2 10th Twilight then technically speaking it was the explosion and/or large-earth-moving event afterwards that tore all the remaining people, bodies and even the mansions apart.

So even though it was said that the bomb or rigged explosion was the core of Beatrice, it was represented by a Goat-man army. I think some of the representations aren't set in stone...
Sorry, my memory is a little bit fuzzy, but do Goat Heads ever kill someone BEFORE the 9th twilight? I understand they are summoned every now and then, but do they actually "kill" someone? From what I remember it's always the Stakes or the Siestas that end up killing people, even if the Goat Heads are chasing after them.

So... perhaps the Goat Heads are indeed a representation of the explosion. They are always there but they have no true impact on the story until the very end, where they finish off the survivor(s).
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Old 2010-05-15, 23:28   Link #9965
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Ziren View Post
Sorry, my memory is a little bit fuzzy, but do Goat Heads ever kill someone BEFORE the 9th twilight? I understand they are summoned every now and then, but do they actually "kill" someone? From what I remember it's always the Stakes or the Siestas that end up killing people, even if the Goat Heads are chasing after them.

So... perhaps the Goat Heads are indeed a representation of the explosion. They are always there but they have no true impact on the story until the very end, where they finish off the survivor(s).
Nope, in fact the only time they ever kill someone is in ep2 10th Twilight; shown eating Kinzo and Battler
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-15, 23:29   Link #9966
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Originally Posted by Geekodot View Post
He didn't even need to be wounded as Battler never clearly saw the wound (he only saw a lot of blood and a stake next to him covered in red). Red paint as a substitute for blood would suffice... I don't think anyone there would've suspected that it could be paint in that situation, especially not with Kinzo's burnt and staked body in the same room.
Yeah that was what I was thinking. Battler didn't see Kanon remove the stake. It was during the magical scene that Kanon did so.
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Old 2010-05-16, 00:58   Link #9967
Thunder Book
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ryukishi confirmed the "explosion accident" in the latest interview so there is no need to question it. And there is not lack of evidence for it. Although most of it comes from the end rolls and 1998 i.e. Maria's jaw, and that environment on the island changed with the mansion missing, and how none of the other corpses besides Maria's are said to be identified. Ryukishi even mentioned these pieces of evidence himself.
There's got to be more to it though. It just seems so... easy, otherwise.
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Old 2010-05-16, 02:06   Link #9968
Judoh
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There's got to be more to it though. It just seems so... easy, otherwise.
Hmm... if we want to go really deep into it. Maybe the "charges" for the explosion are set up in certain positions like a magic circle. It would certainly fit the occult part of Umineko and it would make it easier for us to find a suspect.

I disagree though it doesn't make it too easy. If anything people think the explosion makes it complicated because you have to keep asking "why?". That's why so many people were skeptical when people started applying it to the final reds of episode 4.
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Old 2010-05-16, 02:29   Link #9969
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We've only ever seen one post-Rokkenjima Incident world, and in that world there was a survivor. Perhaps something Eva knew, said, did, or otherwise led the police to keep something under wraps they otherwise would not have. Ep1's epilogue suggests that there are people who believe there was a serial murder or mysterious (magical?) explosion; these people would probably number among the Witch Hunters. The media also accused Eva of murder, but if an explosion happened we know they can't have suspected her of actually killing them unrelated to the explosion, so the media would've somehow been accusing her of responsibility.

Unless, of course, this is all a lot of disjointed information he made up as he went along and he wasn't actually sure of the explosion's source or aftermath in the first episode or two. Just like the nonexistent chapel, or the prominence of rooms once they've been introduced once.
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Old 2010-05-16, 02:46   Link #9970
Dlanor .A. Nox
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What if the Golden Land is one of the few areas where the explosion will reach? The room Eva found what if that is the area where people can avoid the explosion?
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Old 2010-05-16, 03:27   Link #9971
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I think it's fairly likely that there is a tunnel near or within the same complex that the gold is stored which leads to Kuwadorian, and that this tunnel complex or Kuwadorian itself is outside the blast radius of whatever is exploding. This either suggests the person responsible doesn't know Kuwadorian exists (which could be a huge culprit hint, as certain people do know of it), knows it exists and intends to seek safety there, or just can't destroy it too with the resources they have.

There's a reason we've never been shown the interior of that place in detail. Could there be a reason for that? An incriminating piece of evidence? What if Eva finding it is part of what screwed her up by 1998? What did she see there?
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Old 2010-05-16, 11:16   Link #9972
Judoh
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Well this is a weird idea ,but since there are some people including closets as part of a room in some reds when it should be obvious a closet is considered part of a room.

Well could "being on the island", by definition be considered being in the mansion, guesthouse, chapel, shed, etc, with the Kuwadorian being by definition "separate from the island"?

It's weird, but that might make us able to add a person living there or to make a person whose there be considered separate from the person count or something.
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Old 2010-05-16, 11:48   Link #9973
TkMacintosh
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......That's an odd train of thought....

It may not work, but...It could be Rosa....

I'm reading through EP 5 for the first time, and looking at all the Alibi's, who is to say that Rosa's 'corpse' could not be fake?

Rosa is the only one to have a safe alibi for being with the cousins at the time of the muder between 24:00 and 1:00 AM. She could have just as easily faked her death with a substitue corpse or something and hid.

When the others left, she moved the corpses someplace. And then with Hideyoshi, she could've just as easily hid UNDER the bed and waited....

Going back through the episodes, Rosa has plenty of time and oppurtunity, but I could just as easily be wrong.

My biggest problem is EP 3, 2nd Twilight where she's killed by the fence spike...

This most likely has been shown before, but its something that stuck to me....
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Old 2010-05-16, 11:53   Link #9974
rogerpepitone
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well this is a weird idea ,but since there are some people including closets as part of a room in some reds when it should be obvious a closet is considered part of a room.
off-topic: When I visited the Cherry Mansion, the owner mentioned that the bedrooms had wardrobes because houses were taxed based on the number of rooms, and closets counted as separate rooms.
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Old 2010-05-16, 12:22   Link #9975
Renall
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As I understood it, all the closets in Umineko are wardrobes. At least all the relevant ones. I always assumed free-standing wooden armoires, that's just how mystery stories roll.

While I don't think Kuwadorian counts as "off the island," I do think it's possible that someone is living there or using it as a base of operations. I would imagine it's someone who actually already lives on the island anyway, though I suppose it wouldn't have to be. They just need some means to get there and back, some reason not to publically reveal the gold (assuming they ever found it, that is), and some reason to be using the house for stuff.

It could also be filled with props and the Halloween decorations that only seem to show up in ep2.
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Old 2010-05-16, 12:35   Link #9976
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
......That's an odd train of thought....

It may not work, but...It could be Rosa....

I'm reading through EP 5 for the first time, and looking at all the Alibi's, who is to say that Rosa's 'corpse' could not be fake?

Rosa is the only one to have a safe alibi for being with the cousins at the time of the muder between 24:00 and 1:00 AM. She could have just as easily faked her death with a substitue corpse or something and hid.

When the others left, she moved the corpses someplace. And then with Hideyoshi, she could've just as easily hid UNDER the bed and waited....

Going back through the episodes, Rosa has plenty of time and oppurtunity, but I could just as easily be wrong.

My biggest problem is EP 3, 2nd Twilight where she's killed by the fence spike...

This most likely has been shown before, but its something that stuck to me....
Red destories this. After Jessica was killed her corpse was never moved. After Maria was killed her corpse was never moved. After George was killed his corpse was never moved. After Rosa was killed her corpse was never moved.

And this statment. "This is a Midnight answer session. Rosa, Maria, Genji, George, Jessica, and Krauss are dead."
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-16, 14:18   Link #9977
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Red destories this. After Jessica was killed her corpse was never moved. After Maria was killed her corpse was never moved. After George was killed his corpse was never moved. After Rosa was killed her corpse was never moved.

And this statment. "This is a Midnight answer session. Rosa, Maria, Genji, George, Jessica, and Krauss are dead."
Actually, not quite. What this red does is necessarily imply that at the moment of discovery when the commotion started and people were declared dead, nobody was actually dead including Rosa -- otherwise it would be logically impossible for their corpses to vanish. At the moment the midnight answer session starts, it's already 24:00 of the 5th and everyone is dead in the endgame explosion anyway.

However, this scenario is possible and makes sense:

There was no letter with the ring and no knock. Kanon and Shannon (or Shkanon if you prefer) entered the dining hall when Krauss and Natsuhi excused themselves and brought with them the head ring as proof of the Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy they ratted out there and then. To protect them from possible repercussions by their direct employers, those present agreed to say that a mysterious envelope appeared exactly at midnight, while Shannon and Kanon were already with them.

But they did not stop with just that. In the spirit of "turnabout is fair play", they quickly concocted a plan with the goal of coaxing Natsuhi into revealing the truth herself, and sent Rosa off early to proceed with the preparations. Her job was to convince the cousins to play dead and possibly arrange an appropriate medical verdict with Nanjo. Once the coast was clear, to prevent further examination of the 'corpses', Rosa roused them and ushered them somewhere else.

That 'somewhere else' is where they eventually died, though I doubt we can say for certain Rosa is the one who killed them.
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Old 2010-05-16, 17:10   Link #9978
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, not quite. What this red does is necessarily imply that at the moment of discovery when the commotion started and people were declared dead, nobody was actually dead including Rosa -- otherwise it would be logically impossible for their corpses to vanish. At the moment the midnight answer session starts, it's already 24:00 of the 5th and everyone is dead in the endgame explosion anyway.
Everyone can't be dead. It has to be right before the explosion. For they have everyone state their status. Lots of people say they are still alive.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-16, 17:26   Link #9979
Oliver
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Everyone can't be dead. It has to be right before the explosion. For they have everyone state their status. Lots of people say they are still alive.
So does Kinzo, and we know he's dead. They're clearly permitted to lie in white when asked.
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Old 2010-05-16, 17:51   Link #9980
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Actually, not quite. What this red does is necessarily imply that at the moment of discovery when the commotion started and people were declared dead, nobody was actually dead including Rosa -- otherwise it would be logically impossible for their corpses to vanish. At the moment the midnight answer session starts, it's already 24:00 of the 5th and everyone is dead in the endgame explosion anyway.

However, this scenario is possible and makes sense:

There was no letter with the ring and no knock. Kanon and Shannon (or Shkanon if you prefer) entered the dining hall when Krauss and Natsuhi excused themselves and brought with them the head ring as proof of the Kinzo Phantom Conspiracy they ratted out there and then. To protect them from possible repercussions by their direct employers, those present agreed to say that a mysterious envelope appeared exactly at midnight, while Shannon and Kanon were already with them.

But they did not stop with just that. In the spirit of "turnabout is fair play", they quickly concocted a plan with the goal of coaxing Natsuhi into revealing the truth herself, and sent Rosa off early to proceed with the preparations. Her job was to convince the cousins to play dead and possibly arrange an appropriate medical verdict with Nanjo. Once the coast was clear, to prevent further examination of the 'corpses', Rosa roused them and ushered them somewhere else.

That 'somewhere else' is where they eventually died, though I doubt we can say for certain Rosa is the one who killed them.
I like this. It follows the parents' attitude of forcing Krauss to submit, doesn't contradict anything I can remember, and gives a reasonable explanation for why people who weren't previously included in the schemes are.

The only problem is, of course, Erika. Even if she doesn't exist on the gameboard layer, her actions have some effect on the way the pieces move. She forces piece-Battler aside and tries to investigate the corpses, and is constantly trying to solve the mysteries presented to her. If anything, it's hampering the actions of the "anti-Phantom Kinzo" side.
Ironically, she might represent the actions of the culprit, attempting to pass the blame onto Natsuhi, but the two people most likely to be the culprit, Rosa and George are currently playing dead/dead.
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