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Old 2010-05-16, 17:57   Link #9981
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
As I understood it, all the closets in Umineko are wardrobes. At least all the relevant ones. I always assumed free-standing wooden armoires, that's just how mystery stories roll.

While I don't think Kuwadorian counts as "off the island," I do think it's possible that someone is living there or using it as a base of operations. I would imagine it's someone who actually already lives on the island anyway, though I suppose it wouldn't have to be. They just need some means to get there and back, some reason not to publically reveal the gold (assuming they ever found it, that is), and some reason to be using the house for stuff.

It could also be filled with props and the Halloween decorations that only seem to show up in ep2.
Damn it you beat me to it again. I was going to say that someone might have used the secret room as an HQ but I couldn't find a word better than HQ so I just discarded it.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:01   Link #9982
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
So does Kinzo, and we know he's dead. They're clearly permitted to lie in white when asked.
Kinzo and Krauss both don't say they are dead, but unlike the others they say 'They are somewhere' they don't really state being alive or dead.

Another little strange thing is Rudolf doesn't state his status at all. Neither do Kumasawa and Gohda both of those two just say 'I am pleased to meet you."

Though as you said they are probably just lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki
but the two people most likely to be the culprit, Rosa and George are currently playing dead/dead.
I don't think George can be the culprit. Hideyoshi seems completely shocked and horrified that 'Person X' is in the room he is in. I don't think he would be that frightened if it was his son. It would be a little surprise, but to get that scared seems a little off. Imo the only people who could have killed Hideyoshi are Genji, Rosa, or Jessica.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:05   Link #9983
Marion
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Kinzo and Krauss both don't say they are dead, but unlike the others they say 'They are somewhere' they don't really state being alive or dead.

Another little strange thing is Rudolf doesn't state his status at all. Neither do Kumasawa and Gohda both of those two just say 'I am pleased to meet you."

Though as you said they are probably just lying.
Kinzo hasn't be declared dead yet via detective red, so that's why he's missing. Krauss hasn't been determined dead yet either by the detective or the witches, so he's also considered missing.

Although the other three are a bit different.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:07   Link #9984
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
The only problem is, of course, Erika. Even if she doesn't exist on the gameboard layer, her actions have some effect on the way the pieces move. She forces piece-Battler aside and tries to investigate the corpses, and is constantly trying to solve the mysteries presented to her. If anything, it's hampering the actions of the "anti-Phantom Kinzo" side.
Ironically, she might represent the actions of the culprit, attempting to pass the blame onto Natsuhi, but the two people most likely to be the culprit, Rosa and George are currently playing dead/dead.
If 'Erika' is an alias of someone on the board, she has to be one of the people seen in the dining hall scene as it was presented to us. Naturally, since 'Erika's location is defined in red for this period, she was not actually there. Her window to exist outside the dining hall is the 'everybody else' part of the red definition.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:11   Link #9985
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't think George can be the culprit. Hideyoshi seems completely shocked and horrified that 'Person X' is in the room he is in. I don't think he would be that frightened if it was his son. It would be a little surprise, but to get that scared seems a little off.
There is a certain chance Hideyoshi is not killed in the room at all. Nobody with a reliable perspective actually saw the stake driven through him. Natsuhi merely heard something happening but never saw anything, and notice that her narration specially underlines that she did not feel any presence except Hideyoshi's.

After that, the 'corpse' is only seen wrapped in a bloodied sheet, supposedly carried into the parlor as the narration says, and completely forgotten while further scenes in the parlor play out. It's not mentioned ever again.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:12   Link #9986
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
If 'Erika' is an alias of someone on the board, she has to be one of the people seen in the dining hall scene as it was presented to us. Naturally, since 'Erika's location is defined in red for this period, she was not actually there. Her window to exist outside the dining hall is the 'everybody else' part of the red definition.
Doesn't she have to be Nanjo almost? The red said she was with Nanjo the whole time. I noticed Erika pulls that same trick in ep 6 when she asks Battler to say that all other characters are in the Cousins' room.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:16   Link #9987
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Ryukishi confirmed the "explosion accident" in the latest interview so there is no need to question it. And there is not lack of evidence for it. Although most of it comes from the end rolls and 1998 i.e. Maria's jaw, and that environment on the island changed with the mansion missing, and how none of the other corpses besides Maria's are said to be identified. Ryukishi even mentioned these pieces of evidence himself.
Oh, I had no idea about that. Sorry ^^;
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:18   Link #9988
Renall
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Not merely the stake being driven through him; the stake is never seen at all. It's described to Erika as having been found, but neither the object nor Hideyoshi's body are permitted to be examined.

I still think it's not merely probable that Hideyoshi wasn't attacked, but downright impossible that he was. Natsuhi's presence in the closet actually removes it from consideration as a possible hiding place, and while plenty of people are unaccounted for at the time, there's no way they got out before Eva showed up, and Hideyoshi's behavior upon entering the room is just not logical. Making a show of locking the door and vocally checking the windows suggests to me that he knew or suspected someone to be present. The "Who are you?" prompting makes little sense if there can be no Person X; if the killer is among the other 15 people capable of doing it, Hideyoshi should know them. Bar a disguise anyway, but no one in ep5 seemed to be using a disguise, and if they had one, then they had to somehow get rid of it or get out of the room in disguise while the commotion was going on. They could have stashed it in the closet... but Natsuhi was in the closet, and observed no such thing.

There just was no other person there, and probably no stake. Or if there was, the people who planted the "bloody" sheet also planted the stake.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:20   Link #9989
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Doesn't she have to be Nanjo almost? The red said she was with Nanjo the whole time. I noticed Erika pulls that same trick in ep 6 when she asks Battler to say that all other characters are in the Cousins' room.
That would make sense, though I'm not sure if that's possible. Is she ever listed apart from Nanjo?

...wait. What if she's a character from a book currently in Nanjo's pocket?
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:26   Link #9990
Renall
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Nanjo was a popular staker candidate before the Shannontrice focus stole that away from him, mainly because he often wound up staked when killed. Still, if he's the beheading guy, his partial beheading in ep2 becomes somewhat intriguing. I'd like to say someone who kills the killer does so by using their own MO against them, but no one else in ep2 is killed in that fashion besides Kumasawa, who is with him.

Hard to say. Still, we often don't know where Nanjo is at any given time... but there's the small issue of Erika remaining included when Nanjo is also explicitly named.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:40   Link #9991
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Not merely the stake being driven through him; the stake is never seen at all. It's described to Erika as having been found, but neither the object nor Hideyoshi's body are permitted to be examined.

I still think it's not merely probable that Hideyoshi wasn't attacked, but downright impossible that he was. Natsuhi's presence in the closet actually removes it from consideration as a possible hiding place, and while plenty of people are unaccounted for at the time, there's no way they got out before Eva showed up, and Hideyoshi's behavior upon entering the room is just not logical. Making a show of locking the door and vocally checking the windows suggests to me that he knew or suspected someone to be present. The "Who are you?" prompting makes little sense if there can be no Person X; if the killer is among the other 15 people capable of doing it, Hideyoshi should know them. Bar a disguise anyway, but no one in ep5 seemed to be using a disguise, and if they had one, then they had to somehow get rid of it or get out of the room in disguise while the commotion was going on. They could have stashed it in the closet... but Natsuhi was in the closet, and observed no such thing.

There just was no other person there, and probably no stake. Or if there was, the people who planted the "bloody" sheet also planted the stake.
The reason Hideyoshi says "Who are you?" is because he is lying face down on the bed, or so Natushi thinks. This is possible, and could make it be possible for him to get attacked. The killer hides under the bed.
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Old 2010-05-16, 18:57   Link #9992
Renall
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I believe the scene suggests he jumped up and faced the door, in which case he should have recognized the person he saw. If he saw anyone.

The whole fake-crying thing is also incredibly suspect. At least one of Eva or Hideyoshi should have known that George was not actually supposed to be dead.
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Old 2010-05-16, 19:00   Link #9993
Marion
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I believe the scene suggests he jumped up and faced the door, in which case he should have recognized the person he saw. If he saw anyone.

The whole fake-crying thing is also incredibly suspect. At least one of Eva or Hideyoshi should have known that George was not actually supposed to be dead.
I would say Hideyoshi knew that it was fake, because I can't see Eva faking vulnerability. Maybe the reason Hideyoshi was crying in the guest room was because someone passed him a message saying George actually died (since Virgilia stated in red to Battler that the five in the guest house died about an hour before Natsuhi went to the closet.)
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Old 2010-05-16, 19:10   Link #9994
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I believe the scene suggests he jumped up and faced the door, in which case he should have recognized the person he saw. If he saw anyone.

The whole fake-crying thing is also incredibly suspect. At least one of Eva or Hideyoshi should have known that George was not actually supposed to be dead.
He says 'Who are you?" before the creaking of him getting up from the bed is heard.

And we don't know what Hideyohsi was crying about. Natsuhi just assumes Hideyoshi is crying over George.

But there is other thing strange about this scene. When Hideyoshi enters the room, he first tries to unlock the door thinking it is locked. Why does he have the key?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion
I would say Hideyoshi knew that it was fake, because I can't see Eva faking vulnerability. Maybe the reason Hideyoshi was crying in the guest room was because someone passed him a message saying George actually died (since Virgilia stated in red to Battler that the five in the guest house died about an hour before Natsuhi went to the closet.)
Yeah Eva only cries a little bit when George 'dies'. But when Hideyoshi dies, she is bawling for the rest of the game. This suggests he actually did die. And from Hideyoshi's attack everyone goes back into the parlor (expect Natsuhi) and the only person to leave it once is Erika.

Also does Natsuhi or Hideyoshi look under the bed, or in the bathroom? I don't think so; therefore it is possible for the killer to have been hiding there when Natsuhi entered the room. If the killer is in the room, they must know Natsuhi is in the closet. Otherwise that would be imo the first place they would try to hide. Gohda 'claims' no one is in the bathroom, but he could be an accomplice. Afterall no one else looks into the bathroom, besides Gohda. But Hideyoshi having a key bothers me. Since it was said, that Erika went around the mansion openning all the doors. Natsuhi says it would suspicous if a door would suddenly be locked afterwards. So the doors shouldn't be locked, so why does Hideyoshi need to have a key and think the door is locked. If Hideyoshi's death is real, their must be an accomplice amoung the servants. The accomplice suggests Hideyoshi resting in the room Natsuhi is in, therefore creating a crime which will make Natsuhi once again seem guilty of. Though all this is under the assumption that the calls to Natsuhi are real and are the sole work of the culprit and the accomplice, and the others bisides those people don't know about it.
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Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-16 at 19:29.
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Old 2010-05-16, 19:46   Link #9995
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That would make sense, though I'm not sure if that's possible. Is she ever listed apart from Nanjo?

...wait. What if she's a character from a book currently in Nanjo's pocket?
This red. It is impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible at all without Erika, who was in the lounge knowing about it.

For it to be impossible for people to pass by Erika she must have some way of knowing when people go by her. This means she has the abillity to recognize her surroundings. This means she can't be a book, or a corpse, or rose or anything like that.
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Old 2010-05-16, 19:58   Link #9996
Renall
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She can be a person, of course, but she can't be a person specifically stated to be elsewhere. In other words, red about a specific person's location can't permit them to be "Erika" (unless, perhaps, Erika is said to be in the same place), but red about "everyone else" can allow someone not specifically named to go where they will.

This doesn't, to my recollection, work with Nanjo in ep5, as he is spoken of specifically.
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Old 2010-05-16, 20:32   Link #9997
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She can be a person, of course, but she can't be a person specifically stated to be elsewhere. In other words, red about a specific person's location can't permit them to be "Erika" (unless, perhaps, Erika is said to be in the same place), but red about "everyone else" can allow someone not specifically named to go where they will.

This doesn't, to my recollection, work with Nanjo in ep5, as he is spoken of specifically.
Ok if that is the case, then if in both ep Eirka is the same person then.
  • Erika must be someone who was in the dinning room when they accounced Battler found the gold.
  • Erika must be a victim of the first twlight in ep6. Due to the reason she asks Battler to say 'all other characters are in the Cousins' room besides those of the FT'

For the first one we have all the adults expect Rosa, plus Shannon and Kanon.
For the second one we have only Maria, Rosa, Kyrie, Eva, and Natsuhi.

So it would either have to be Eva or Kyrie if Erika remains the same person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rendall
(unless, perhaps, Erika is said to be in the same place),
After 24:00 Nanjo was with Erika until 3AM. Both your seal and your red are perfect. Nanjo had the alibi of being with Erika until 3AM, and he didn’t leave his room after 3AM until morning.

Erika was in the same place as Nanjo at least until 3AM, for then on where Erika is is unknown, expect that we know she is on the 2nd floor of the guesthouse. Erika could have been with Nanjo the whole night for all we know, in fact the room next to the cousins' room could even be Nanjo's room.
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Old 2010-05-16, 20:42   Link #9998
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
I don't think George can be the culprit. Hideyoshi seems completely shocked and horrified that 'Person X' is in the room he is in. I don't think he would be that frightened if it was his son. It would be a little surprise, but to get that scared seems a little off. Imo the only people who could have killed Hideyoshi are Genji, Rosa, or Jessica.
George doesn't have to kill anybody because he's a "handler".

Hideyoshi didn't recognize the person who killed him in that scene. He should know what everyone looks like. I'm with Jan-poo on the fake death group wearing goat masks.
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Old 2010-05-16, 20:55   Link #9999
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Ok if that is the case, then if in both ep Eirka is the same person then.
  • Erika must be someone who was in the dinning room when they accounced Battler found the gold.
  • Erika must be a victim of the first twlight in ep6. Due to the reason she asks Battler to say 'all other characters are in the Cousins' room besides those of the FT'

For the first one we have all the adults expect Rosa, plus Shannon and Kanon.
For the second one we have only Maria, Rosa, Kyrie, Eva, and Natsuhi.

So it would either have to be Eva or Kyrie if Erika remains the same person.
For EP6, know that the five victims of the first twilight were all killed and beheaded by Erika prior to the logic error. Erika physically repaired and set a chain lock after this time. Therefore, she cannot possibly be one of the first twilight victims, even admitting the possibility of Device X that would allow her to completely sever her own head. Regarding the possibility that Erika is Battler, Erika, Battler, and Kanon are three people and three bodies.

However, George, Hideyoshi, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed. The seal on the window of that room was not confirmed at the time of the logic error. So Hideyoshi and Shannon are possibilities.
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Old 2010-05-17, 01:47   Link #10000
Shiro Kaisen
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I maintain that Shannon is Erika in Episode 6. She kills the First Twilight folks, and then Shannon is shown to have shot Kanon. Occam's Razor says one murderer. Plus it makes thematic sense and stuff. AND there'd be good reason for Kanon to be hiding in Battler's room's closet, since if he knew his shooter was in that same room he'd wanna hide. And then he succumbs to his wounds.

What if Shannon was both Erika and Beatrice? That'd be cool.
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