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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 83 51.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 22.84%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 14.20%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 6.17%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 4.32%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.62%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.62%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-02-10, 19:13   Link #141
BashZeStampeedo
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While that might still be part of the problem, it doesn't seem to be what's holding Horo back. It can't be lost on Horo that it's a selfish and defeatist attitude to avoid joy because you'll lose it one day. Even Lawrence reminded her that he'd be willing to let her go if he knew she would be happier without him. Clearly, that wasn't the case.

If I had to pin a real reason on it, I'd have to say that it's simply what Horo said earlier: she wants to prolong their relationship as much as possible for her sake. And Lawrence knows it, and he's been a really good sport. But Horo panicked because she figured out too late just how quickly things were moving. She didn't think she could slow things down, so she tried ending things artificially before things went too far.

But she was way too late, so we can look forward to more of Horo trying to extend things, and more of Lawrence wondering if he'll live to see them pass the next base. But I doubt that's the whole story, because if it was then Horo wouldn't be rushing Lawrence from dangerous situation to dangerous situation just for the sake of pride - he's not a god-wolf, and he's been accumulating a lot of damage since he met Horo. I can explain it as her being confused and running on instinct, but it doesn't feel quite right.
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Old 2010-02-10, 19:47   Link #142
tyranuus
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Well from what I noticed being said elsewhere it sound like we might be waiting for a few series for real resolution of this relationship given:

Spoiler for the far future:


Still, as this discussion has highlighted, there could be ANY number of reasons for Horo's behaviour, going from the slightly more forward reasons suggested, to the more theoretical suggestions, or even a mix of both; until we can see the rest of the story we probably won't ever know! As she says herself, he's had to knock her out of her own foolishness, so perhaps there really is a large element of " It can't be lost on Horo that it's a selfish and defeatist attitude to avoid joy".
Either way I want to enjoy the journey finding out her motivations!

Quote:
But she was way too late, so we can look forward to more of Horo trying to extend things, and more of Lawrence wondering if he'll live to see them pass the next base
That did make me laugh.
The quote:
"I'm a woman, I reserve the right to be inconsistant" comes to mind!

Quote:
he's not a god
According to Horo she's not a god either...it could be a case of skewed perspective, god/spirit style haha

*****

The fact the characters are even capable of causing the level of discussion into thier motivations like this thread really does speak volumes for the strength of the original source materials and anime in this regard though, these are certainly not cookie cutter stereotype characters.

Last edited by tyranuus; 2010-02-10 at 19:58.
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Old 2010-02-10, 22:04   Link #143
Rajura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyranuus
The fact the characters are even capable of causing the level of discussion into thier motivations like this thread really does speak volumes for the strength of the original source materials and anime in this regard though, these are certainly not cookie cutter stereotype characters.

You are right; they most certainly aren't generic recycled characters. The good thing about this series is that (even though it's gonna end... dang it) there could easily be 1 or 2 maaaaaaaaybe (very slim) 3 more seasons. I would hope that interest is there for it given that the story still has an important part left to tell, and I know most of us would like to see that animated in the next year (with the same voice actors in BOTH Eng and Nih).
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Old 2010-02-11, 05:00   Link #144
tyranuus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura View Post
You are right; they most certainly aren't generic recycled characters. The good thing about this series is that (even though it's gonna end... dang it) there could easily be 1 or 2 maaaaaaaaybe (very slim) 3 more seasons. I would hope that interest is there for it given that the story still has an important part left to tell, and I know most of us would like to see that animated in the next year (with the same voice actors in BOTH Eng and Nih).
Well due to the sort of story its based on, the series was always going to end unless they ploughed through the remaining seasons and then went side story/alternate so as to avoid the books, I think it quite likely the series would be jumping the shark there though.
Luckily the shark is quite a way off right now, so I can only hope demand continues in Japan, and also for the translated materials, aa this is a story I think deserves a conclusive ending

I hope by important part you mean Yoitsu, rather than teasing about something else!

To be fair I wouldnt mind if they changed English voice actors as long as the Japanese dont change. Reason for that is I think Horo's voice suffered in English, it sounded older than her body was meant to be AND the JP voiceover, and didnt carry anywhere near the same range of emotions/tone, so it lost some of the subtlety that she had before, at least in the dub I've watched. She felt a bit too rigid in comparison.
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Old 2010-02-11, 05:55   Link #145
Rajura
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Well, I think we would all agree that we don't want to see this series "jump the shark" and there is nothing worse than side arcs and filler simply for the sake of it.

As for me, I agree there was something lost in the dub, but I think that's due in large part to:
1) We already knew what Hol(r)o's voice sounded like and liked it a lot
2) Because her original voice was so well done and so dynamic, we wanted it to be very similar in the dub and had already decided in our own minds what she would sound like in English
3) *This one was beyond our control* While her original voice carries that very youthful quality and lability of emotion from th outset, in my experience, that tends to not work out very well in English and just comes out feeling unnatural and maybe even inappropriate.
*This may be due to that fact that I have not chosen the correct dubs to watch
4) I have not seen much of the dub either (I am STILL waiting on my DVDs to come), so I'll make my decision as to the voice when she is flirting or talking to outsiders once I am able to make a fair call.
5) I like continuity of voice characters... I have heard some dubs and then been like "Woah, what's wrong with your VOICE" *reference to what's wrong with your face comment on a movie review I saw*. If a voice actor is changed, it is usually not for the better in my opinion. This wears on me and I find myself really unable to pay attention as then I startcomparing prior voices and not so much paying attention to what was said or how it was said.
*Again that may just be me.
6) More about Hol(r)o's voice... describing her voice as a bit too rigid; that may be the "proud wolf" streak in her coming out. I will enjoy seeing if her voice becomes a little more playful over the season, but I must say there are a few scenes where that "mature" fits quite nicely. I think the best thing to do is just enjoy both styles in their own right. I find I become less and less satisfied with a show if I put them up side by side.

I think the stream of consciousness is kicking in, so...

I hope most of what I said was coherent. Hope I didn't offend anyone by my opinions and assumptions, interpretation of the material, or any missed grammar mistakes.
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Last edited by Rajura; 2010-02-11 at 06:11.
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Old 2010-02-11, 06:50   Link #146
tyranuus
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Ouch...still waiting on the DVDs? I managed to find an import place in the UK that had them in stock so I only had to wait 2 days!

I did wonder about the proud wolf side, the problem is it almost feels like the English VA has overemphasised that side of things, even if english does sound a bit funny over emotional, it also sounds quite wierd to hear Horo with less depth, there's less of the mischevious hints and little verbal nuances from the bits I've seen so far, a little less humanity too.

For example theres a bit in the second episode where Horo is speaking to Lawrence, and then tries to kill a flea. In the Japanese theres a marked difference in her tone when she mentions the flea, its definately a sullen grumble even if I cant understand whats being said, wheres in the English VO, the tone of her voice doesnt change anywhere near as much, and its things like this I'm on about.

A lot of Horo's character is in the little movements, voice tone changes etc, and the English dub loses a bit of that. You're right, I do need to sit down and watch it through before I make a final decision, but it still comes across quickly the English voice acting doesn't have the same depth.

The depth was part of what made Horo such an interesting character.

In terms to youthful voices, yeah they could have pitched it too young and that would have been awful (Lymle in SO4 comes to mind), but she sounds about 20 or so, perhaps a little older in the English dub, in the Jap version, she sounds much closer to her 'human' age of 15, they could have at least gone for something a little lower. A couple of points the English VA really loses the voice too, and she ends up sounding laughably old for a few seconds, so whilst the mature sound sometimes works, other times it really doesn't. Although as you mentioned, perhaps the VA will loosen up and begin to get into character later on in the dub.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the English dub is bad (it's better than I was expecting to some extent, Lawrence's VA seems to have hit the mark a lot better than Horo's) I just think the Japanese Dub is better.

Im introducing my brother to Season 1 now, he saw the English dub first, and normally he prefers to watched dubbed shows, and even he prefers the Japanese audio though so I'd say that does reflect something, as originally he wanted to watch the English dub not the Japanese, and now he doesnt really want to watch it in English.
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Old 2010-02-11, 10:48   Link #147
BashZeStampeedo
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I actually found the choice of VA's rather good for the dub so far, and the translation pretty good too (though some things seemed a little off). Lawrence was played very well, but Horo's stilted old-English "accent" bothered me (her oiran kotoba may have sounded just as lame to a native Japanese speaker, I don't know). Her actual voice didn't bother me though, even if it seemed to be "older" than her faux-age at first. Of course, after Ami K's heartfelt rendition of Horo I doubt anyone else would sound right
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Old 2010-02-11, 18:05   Link #148
Rajura
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I don't know where else to put this since this is still an active thread and my post will deal with the anime, but...

Dang it, dang it, dang it! I finally get the blasted DVD in the mail after the supplier took forever to actually ship it and I find out that the blooming case is damaged BUT ONLY AFTER I opened it! Hol(r)o's face has a significant gash. What kinda company is gonna send this crap (when it sure wasn't damaged in transit as best I can tell by the packaging)?!?! I got in touch with them... I hope they email me back and make it right (for some reason I don't think they will though).

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
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Old 2010-02-11, 18:25   Link #149
Vexx
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We should ask where you got it? Rightstuf.com or dvdpacific.com are the usual recommended sources for things anime.

See what their exchange policy is...
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Old 2010-02-11, 18:52   Link #150
tyranuus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
I actually found the choice of VA's rather good for the dub so far, and the translation pretty good too (though some things seemed a little off). Lawrence was played very well, but Horo's stilted old-English "accent" bothered me (her oiran kotoba may have sounded just as lame to a native Japanese speaker, I don't know). Her actual voice didn't bother me though, even if it seemed to be "older" than her faux-age at first. Of course, after Ami K's heartfelt rendition of Horo I doubt anyone else would sound right
Yeah, Lawrence is pulled off much better than Horo, as I said just above
It's Horo who really suffers in comparison
The ironic thing with giving Horo an old-english style accent is that if this is middle-europe inspired fantasy, with heavy hints to a romanticised Germany region, and she comes from the North...she's more likely to come from the likes of Norway/Finland/Sweden etc than England, and our accents are nothing alike
Ami's has been great though so far, so I'll continue to listen in Japanese wherever possible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura
I don't know where else to put this since this is still an active thread and my post will deal with the anime, but...

Dang it, dang it, dang it! I finally get the blasted DVD in the mail after the supplier took forever to actually ship it and I find out that the blooming case is damaged BUT ONLY AFTER I opened it! Hol(r)o's face has a significant gash. What kinda company is gonna send this crap (when it sure wasn't damaged in transit as best I can tell by the packaging)?!?! I got in touch with them... I hope they email me back and make it right (for some reason I don't think they will though).

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Damn, that sucks. My copy has made it across the sea, and then across royal mail (even worse!) and didnt have that done to it!
Who sent it to you, because I'll make sure not to grab anything from them in the future!


I actually weakened and managed to get the first novel and preordered the second from Amazon.co.uk late last night as well, figured if these Novels are still in the 'see how it goes' stage, putting down a pre-order is a fairly good way of showing support for the series to be translated, so perhaps the first one will arrive tomorrow as they shipped today
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Old 2010-02-11, 19:19   Link #151
Rajura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
We should ask where you got it? Rightstuf.com or dvdpacific.com are the usual recommended sources for things anime.

See what their exchange policy is...
Yeah, I did the whole ebay thing (stupid me); neither Best Buy nor any local purveyor of anime actually had it (which was very surprising). I will wait on giving out the name until I find out if they will rectify the situation... then I will say who they are and how (good or bad) they handled things.

One that surprises and disappoints me is that the video quality of the DVD seems a little poor. I have had some "static" bands and a few other "blips" appear on the screen while watching. Is this something anyone else has encountered? I was expecting high quality resolution given what I saw on the internet when watching, but this might as well be a VHS to DVD transfer i.e. whatever is wrong on the VHS appears digitally and cannot be hid if it was an original flaw.

Maybe I am being a little critical of the video, and I don't expect Blu-ray (would have gotten it if the had made a hybrid release) but still...
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Old 2010-02-11, 20:14   Link #152
tyranuus
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Apart from being a bit grainy from being a DVD, I haven't noticed any major artifacts. Im watching via a HDDVD player scaling, through to a 1080p plasma, perhaps they're helping hide any blemishes bar the lack of resolution?

I haven't noticed any reviews commenting on poor dvd video quality either. Is you disc pristine, not got any scratches or defects? I've not seen blips on DVDs/Blurays for ages, except ones that have been damaged during rental usage.
I've not noticed that many anime being released yet on Bluray either to be fair, I guess the market isnt strong enough right now for them to launch every series in Blu at the same time as DVD, I would have paid another 10 happily for the box set to have been Bluray though (well, probably anyway, I rarely spend as much money on DVDs as I did on Spice and Wolf).
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Old 2010-02-12, 02:13   Link #153
Vexx
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@Rajura: those symptoms mean either.. you got a bootleg (evil), or the DVD is scratched on the important side. Either way, I'd demand an exchange or return. Bootlegs come from anime sellers in the US as well as overseas - so vendor location is no automatic protection.

The only problem I've seen with my copy of S&W is that its a bit bright on some players (I've played it on several different computer brands and both a Phillips and a Sony DVD player).
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Old 2010-02-12, 05:30   Link #154
Rajura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
@Rajura: those symptoms mean either.. you got a bootleg (evil), or the DVD is scratched on the important side. Either way, I'd demand an exchange or return. Bootlegs come from anime sellers in the US as well as overseas - so vendor location is no automatic protection.

The only problem I've seen with my copy of S&W is that its a bit bright on some players (I've played it on several different computer brands and both a Phillips and a Sony DVD player).
You know, I think you might be right. Just after I was here complaining, I watched one more episode and there were issues with volume control. Lawrence (most often) and other characters would go from prefectly normal volume to almost a whisper... and the context of the conversation most definitely DID NOT merit whispering.

So, just to say it without any subtlety, I think I got screwed and was sold a bootleg copy despite the fact that they said it was not!!!
Man that ticks me off to no end!!!!!
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Old 2010-02-12, 14:17   Link #155
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura View Post
You know, I think you might be right. Just after I was here complaining, I watched one more episode and there were issues with volume control. Lawrence (most often) and other characters would go from prefectly normal volume to almost a whisper... and the context of the conversation most definitely DID NOT merit whispering.

So, just to say it without any subtlety, I think I got screwed and was sold a bootleg copy despite the fact that they said it was not!!!
Man that ticks me off to no end!!!!!
Well.. I wouldn't accuse them til I got my money back. Just say the product arrived both damaged and in an unplayable state. Insist on your money back.

Rightstuf has it in stock at the moment:
http://www.rightstuf.com/cgi-bin/cat...em/84585/4/0/0
If you're a member, the prices make up for the membership in less than one purchase.
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Old 2010-02-16, 19:22   Link #156
Rajura
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Well, good news... the place got back to me and will replace it (no additional shipping fees, which is exactly as it should be). I will likely break down and get a second copy from RS in the next week or so and just give the replacement copy I'll be getting back to a friend as a freebie. He isn't as OCD as I am about such stuff and will just think it cool that I gave him something for free when it isn't even his B-day or Christmas.
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Old 2010-02-16, 21:15   Link #157
tyranuus
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Hope that all works out for you. Double check the quality of the next copy though, you may find its even worse! haha
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Old 2010-05-17, 04:47   Link #158
Yzori
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I thought this was a decent episode, but the feelings were shown one-sided. (it's just because Horo is too proud to admit her love for Lawrence). That will be shown in season III hopefully, any news on that by the way? I heard it would most likely be airing around the summer.
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Old 2010-05-17, 10:34   Link #159
tyranuus
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Not as far as I know, we're still waiting eagerly for news of a 3rd season (hell with the books ahead, its not like the material is lacking). Actually in one of the recent books she directly told Lawrence she loves him, so dependant on how many more series (if more) they have in mind, its quite possible they will end one with that.
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Old 2010-05-18, 16:18   Link #160
Arashi500
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Tyrannus, I would hope it ends where the books end, unless the books end horribly (as in unexplained, poorly done, like the ending of Soul Eater, rather then an aruegably wrong outcome to the journey). I also really hope it airs this summer or fall. 2010 is looking to be a good year.
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