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Old 2010-05-17, 11:23   Link #10021
Laserworm
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Beatrice loves mysteries. Shannon (if she is Beato) loves mysteries. Erika loves mysteries.

Shantricika; anyone

I hope when Ep7 comes out we get more soild clues, so we can destory some theories, not come up with many more. We need some hint to shatter these false truths. We already have enough theories, do we really need Ep7 to add 2 or more theories.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 11:29   Link #10022
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Because it's not Battler whom she says it to, but us.

Mind you, I'm not planning to fight for this hypothesis too much. Unless anyone except me actually cares to try to bring it to a theory level and see if it actually explains anything, it's worthless anyway.
I agree that this hypothesis does have a lot of potential. There are lots of hints to support this, even if none of them are stated in the Red.

What may bother people is just that: there is no hard evidence for it.
I say this:

Correlation does not imply causation.
This is a scientific adage that also applies to this game.
Now I shall take the inverse:
No correlation doesn't imply no causation.
(In mathematical logic, the inverse of a statement is not always true. However, in this case, it is true. Just clarifying that.)
As long as there is nothing disproving the idea, then it cannot be truly denied. It may not actually be true, but every single theory except one is false anyway.

Now, I'm not very good at this sort of thing so you may want other supporters, hehe.

Just don't be like Erika and get into a hissy-fit whenever you have to make revisions
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Old 2010-05-17, 11:51   Link #10023
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Because it's not Battler whom she says it to, but us.

Mind you, I'm not planning to fight for this hypothesis too much. Unless anyone except me actually cares to try to bring it to a theory level and see if it actually explains anything, it's worthless anyway.
Bern could have spoke to Erika in EP1 ????
But it would mean that "Bern and Erika may not be ally" and thus "Erika relation with Bern could be simple courtesy", and in EP5 it is said that Erika always wanted to be a witch.. Even if it is not said in red, I don't think that you can complain, just by seeing Erika's face. But...why Erika want to be a witch ?
  • She just wants power.
  • She wants to win on her own, but need the red of witches to make her theories(She CAN'T participate to the 4 first game because of Bern not using her.)
    Even in EP5, she has to ask to Bern. She just want to be independent.
  • She wants to save herself from her cruel fate of being dead from the beginning, and thus become a witch or a voyageur. To be endless or to flee to another world, where she don't even falllll faallll from the boat.

So Bern is talking to erika in EP1 could be true.
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Old 2010-05-17, 11:52   Link #10024
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Just don't be like Erika and get into a hissy-fit whenever you have to make revisions
Frankly, I have spent a bit too much time fussing over Umineko for the time being and won't be doing another reread for a while. It's a hypothesis, but not really a theory. It fills out a large chunk of background story but does not answer some of the most important questions, and I can't say I know how it could answer them:
  • It still does not implicate either Shannon or Jessica in the murders beside the endgame explosion. We still don't know who is the one who actually wrecks the party and whether it's either of the two.
  • It does not explain the behaviour of Krauss and Natsuhi particularly well.
  • It does not offer anything substantial on the origins and nature of Beatrice-1 or Kinzo, and while the former may be a plot device (possibly even a plot nuclear device) Kinzo is a major player in the whole mess.

As a side note, I have brought up both the shrine mirror and Natsuhi's mirror as symbols of truth, and I suspect it may be more important even than I initially thought. The shrine mirror is rather obviously such a symbol, as in the mythology the mirror is the symbol of Amaterasu, which she gives away, saying, "Worship it as if it was Me". The most prized virtue of Shinto that I'm aware of is 'makoto' -- purity and truth, and the mirror is a symbol of that truth.

That it is an antithesis to western magic in the interpretation seen in the text, an antithesis to self-delusion, is the reason why this mirror has to be broken and the shrine has to be gone before Beatrice can proceed.

Now, Natsuhi has another mirror, which, while it may or may not be a real physical object, has to carry the same properties as the shrine mirror, being a religious heirloom. As a side note, I don't think Battler himself ever hears about the mirror, which allows it to be a pure metaphor.

The first time it is seen, Natsuhi sticks it into her pocket with the intent to give it to Jessica and forgets about it, carrying it around in her pocket for the rest of the episode. If this is a metaphor for anything, Natsuhi was about to reveal some important truth to Jessica, but in the commotion, did not.

In Ep2, George, Shannon and Gohda set out to retrieve the same mirror, and perish in the attempt. In Ep5, Natsuhi's diaries are said to have been found in her room -- and very probably, in the same place as the mirror is supposed to be kept.

This makes me think that Natsuhi knows some very important truth that we have not yet been told, from the period when she kept her diaries, which would be another major piece of the entire puzzle.
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Last edited by Oliver; 2010-05-17 at 11:56. Reason: typo
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Old 2010-05-17, 11:54   Link #10025
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
But...why Erika want to be a witch ?
Riddle me this: What exactly, really is a witch?
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— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:02   Link #10026
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Riddle me this: What exactly, really is a witch?
You got it wrong. The right question is "What exactly, really is a witch for Erika". She wants to have the title of witch, not me.
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:08   Link #10027
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
You got it wrong. The right question is "What exactly, really is a witch for Erika". She wants to have the title of witch, not me.
Well, yes.

The traditional interpretation of the word 'witch' is 'someone who has supernatural powers', but I'm betting that isn't really what Erika is after, she wants the rank of a witch, which doesn't really seem to be connected with supernatural powers as such.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:14   Link #10028
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, yes.

The traditional interpretation of the word 'witch' is 'someone who has supernatural powers', but I'm betting that isn't really what Erika is after, she wants the rank of a witch, which doesn't really seem to be connected with supernatural powers as such.
Erika comes from a rich family, maybe rank is very important in these families like...hey !
Doesn't that make her a bit close to Natshui ? Natshui wants to be able to wear the One winged an...eagle as much as Erika wants to have the rank of a witch. But this sound strange...Erika and Natshui aren't really in good terms in EP5. Maybe they have TOO MUCH NOTHING ALIKE ?

Well, everyone in Umineko...all of them...I knew it from the beginning...they have...the DESIREEEEEEE!
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:45   Link #10029
Laserworm
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ugh I want ep7 to hurry up and come out.. I'm getting tired of rereading eps 1-5 (six takes way to long to reread) I must have red them all at least 10 times....

Also what is up with Kanon's death is Shannon = Kanon? If the results shown on the TIPS are true.

Ep1 = Stabbed in the chest
Ep2 = Unknown
Ep3 = Stabbed/Shot in the stomach (The wound is clearly lower on his body than ep1's wound)
Ep4 = It looks like his upperbody is completely taken out. (We can see right through that large hole into the background of the page. It kind of makes me think of a more extremely 'demon kanon')
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:46   Link #10030
CainSonozaki
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Sorry to break current line of conversation but i started thinking about Maria's Rose. Does anyone have any theories about its appearance, and more so disappearance? I just think there has to be some significance since as far as my memory serves its one of the few things shown consistently in every episode.

I have a little theory as far as its disappearance. "Beatrice" took the rose and waited til Maria was alone to give her the letter. Not sure where though cuz as far as i remember, the cousins checked the whole rose garden, or tried.
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:51   Link #10031
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
I have a little theory as far as its disappearance. "Beatrice" took the rose and waited til Maria was alone to give her the letter. Not sure where though cuz as far as i remember, the cousins checked the whole rose garden, or tried.
That is my theory too, unless maybe the hurricane just destroys it, and its dissapearance isn't that important.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 13:04   Link #10032
DaBackpack
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In an interview, Ryukishi07 said this:
Quote:
After writing four chapters, the world’s layout has become very firm, so the actual writing went very smoothly. Instead, the hard part this time around was “arranging the hints”. We want Umineko to be a product people can enjoy as they think, and we paid a lot of attention to the balance between making it fun to read and including the right number of hints. Our goal is to write a story which gives hints to people who don’t know the truth and reaffirms the views of people who do understand. We could have written it so that the truth was plainly clear and everyone could understand it, but we believe that might have effected how interesting a read it would have become. The other difficult thing was positioning a message to the readers that “it is solvable at this point”. In classic mysteries, the “sign” is always the time that the detective says “I know who the culprit is”. However, I think we failed to add such a sign in Episode 4. You really should be able to solve it as a mystery with the information given up to and including Episode 4, but because we didn’t give a “sign”, people thought “there aren’t enough hints yet”, and few people seriously tried to solve the series. When we saw this, we thought “yes, a clear sign really is needed”, and a “sign” appeared in Episode 5 as: “And then………I……knew.”
The mystery is solveable with information up to Episode 4. Random interjection ^^;

Also,

Quote:
Yeah, I’ll bet. Many hints will appear in EP5 as well. When the pivotal answers come out in EP6 and EP7, I suggest that you replay starting from EP1 and enjoy how early on the foreshadowing begins. Like when you get a new key in an RPG, and return to the very first dungeon to get a treasure chest behind a door that you couldn’t open before(laughs). That’s an especially fun part of Umineko. Even now, there are many things you’ll understand if you go back to EP1. But there are still many treasure chests waiting in EP1 that can’t be opened yet. After playing EP5, EP6, and EP7, you might go back to EP1 and think “This is a huge clue” or “It’s almost obvious!”
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Old 2010-05-17, 13:16   Link #10033
DgBarca
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IMO the “And then………I……knew.” Was just covering the fact that Beatrice love Battler...Well, who hadn't find that Beatrice loved Battler before the end of EP5 ? There was so many hints (and they are even more obvious that Lambda said it)
When love was shared, magic was shared, and then Battler became the endless sorcerer.
If he had discovered "all the truth" there is no need for EP6.

AFAIK, we don't know what Battler really ..."knew"... here. Maybe he discovered more or less than we expect. But it is, like Ryukishi07 said, a sign for the readers.

Also, I still don't get the "Do you think we will reach the Golden Land" between Shannon and Kanon in EP4. Are they really aware of the previous games ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
In an interview, Ryukishi07 said this:
Quote:
Yeah, I’ll bet. Many hints will appear in EP5 as well. When the pivotal answers come out in EP6 and EP7, I suggest that you replay starting from EP1 and enjoy how early on the foreshadowing begins. Like when you get a new key in an RPG, and return to the very first dungeon to get a treasure chest behind a door that you couldn’t open before(laughs). That’s an especially fun part of Umineko. Even now, there are many things you’ll understand if you go back to EP1. But there are still many treasure chests waiting in EP1 that can’t be opened yet. After playing EP5, EP6, and EP7, you might go back to EP1 and think “This is a huge clue” or “It’s almost obvious!”
Hum...EP1 seems pretty important. All along I had a feeling that EP1 has something very important. No one witnessed magic in here. I have the feeling that the long and unfinished airport/boat scene are not that plot-useless...Especially Maria on the boat
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:02   Link #10034
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Hum...EP1 seems pretty important. All along I had a feeling that EP1 has something very important. No one witnessed magic in here. I have the feeling that the long and unfinished airport/boat scene are not that plot-useless...Especially Maria on the boat
Brings us back to the shrine and the mirror, doesn't it.

That's one bit of Maria's behaviour I don't see anyone explaining or even paying much attention to. Whichever underlying explanation you pick for her extensive knowledge of Beatrice, it harshly clashes with her seeing the disappearance of the shrine as a great misfortune.

As a side note, Beatrice says that Kinzo restored the shrine soon after her death to prevent her spirit from running away from the island.
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— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
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(updated 2010-08-24)
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:03   Link #10035
DaBackpack
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Yay, I'm the 10,001 poster :P

But I'm a bit intrigued by Ryukishi's comment. He's saying that the motive/culprit can be found as early as the first episode?

Actually, this probably isn't too surprising now that I think about it.
Most mystery novels are the same way: when you reread with the new information, a lot of the foreshadowing becomes much more obvious.

I'll have to reread Ep.1 in any case, I've only read it once :P
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:09   Link #10036
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
But I'm a bit intrigued by Ryukishi's comment. He's saying that the motive/culprit can be found as early as the first episode?

Actually, this probably isn't too surprising now that I think about it.
Most mystery novels are the same way: when you reread with the new information, a lot of the foreshadowing becomes much more obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi
The other difficult thing was positioning a message to the readers that “it is solvable at this point”. In classic mysteries, the “sign” is always the time that the detective says “I know who the culprit is”. However, I think we failed to add such a sign in Episode 4. You really should be able to solve it as a mystery with the information given up to and including Episode 4, but because we didn’t give a “sign”, people thought “there aren’t enough hints yet”, and few people seriously tried to solve the series.
His statement says that the sign should have been in the end of ep4, which means the series is not solvable until ep4.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:13   Link #10037
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
His statement says that the sign should have been in the end of ep4, which means the series is not solvable until ep4.
I realize this, but I was just taken aback that he was so forward as to say that there were so many hints in the first Episode.

In fact, I need to reread Episode 2 as well.
That whole boring scene with Shannon and Jessica is probably important.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:15   Link #10038
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I realize this, but I was just taken aback that he was so forward as to say that there were so many hints in the first Episode.

In fact, I need to reread Episode 2 as well.
That whole boring scene with Shannon and Jessica is probably important.
Jessica asthma ?
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:18   Link #10039
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Jessica asthma ?
I meant the scenes with Shannon and Beatrice talking, and Kanon and Jessica at the dance.

But most importantly the mirror breaking scene.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:21   Link #10040
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I meant the scenes with Shannon and Beatrice talking, and Kanon and Jessica at the dance.

But most importantly the mirror breaking scene.
Oh hey, these one.

Marisa is the culprit. At the end, there was no bomb, everyone got Master Sparked. Case Closed.

Seriously, I don't remember these scene well, so I guess I won't discuss on that.
Mirror breaking is really strange, I guess she didn't break it just for love and DESIREEEE.
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