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Old 2010-05-17, 14:24   Link #10041
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I meant the scenes with Shannon and Beatrice talking, and Kanon and Jessica at the dance.

But most importantly the mirror breaking scene.
This mirror breaking scene could be showing that she is breaking away from her Beatrice persona. But maybe not, it could also be a scene that is impossible to inturpet unless we have reached the truth.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:27   Link #10042
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
This mirror breaking scene could be showing that she is breaking away from her Beatrice persona. But maybe not, it could also be a scene that is impossible to inturpet unless we have reached the truth.
I thought of it exactly the opposite: I thought it symbolized Shannon "selling her soul to the Devil." In other words, she's become "Beatrice" and will do anything to accomplish her goal.

But that's just an unfounded assumption on an observation I saw several months ago XD
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:46   Link #10043
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I thought of it exactly the opposite: I thought it symbolized Shannon "selling her soul to the Devil." In other words, she's become "Beatrice" and will do anything to accomplish her goal.

But that's just an unfounded assumption on an observation I saw several months ago XD
Actually this makes sense too. This could be the scene where she creates Beato. Or maybe shortly after.

Ok theorizing time.

Shannon heard a rumor about if the item that is in the shrine is broken your wish will be greated by Beatrice in return for doing this for her. Shannon wishes Battler would return, when she shouts "Grant my wish Beatrice!" Her wish is not granted and she gives up hope on magic and such, and creates her Beato friend to cope, before she falls for George. She at first falls for George just because he is the only guy to treat her with kindness and show any interest in her besides Battler. But she eventally does actually fall for George. The only time she cares about Battler's sin to her is in ep4, so clearly something big happens in that ep, which changes things.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:51   Link #10044
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Actually this makes sense too. This could be the scene where she creates Beato. Or maybe shortly after.

Ok theorizing time.

Shannon heard a rumor about if the item that is in the shrine is broken your wish will be greated by Beatrice in return for doing this for her. Shannon wishes Battler would return, when she shouts "Grant my wish Beatrice!" Her wish is not granted and she gives up hope on magic and such, and creates her Beato friend to cope, before she falls for George. She at first falls for George just because he is the only guy to treat her with kindness and show any interest in her besides Battler. But she eventally does actually fall for George. The only time she cares about Battler's sin to her is in ep4, so clearly something big happens in that ep, which changes things.
Haha, I bet it's because he tries to grope her in Episode 1 :P

Other than that, though, I can't really imagine too many Shannon-Battler hints (putting aside Battler mentioning him being a knight on a white horse in Episode 3).
Maybe she DID care about Battler's sin, but the circumstances only allowed her to mention it in Episode 4.
The parents were all missing, so that might have something to do with it.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:54   Link #10045
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Haha, I bet it's because he tries to grope her in Episode 1 :P

Other than that, though, I can't really imagine too many Shannon-Battler hints (putting aside Battler mentioning him being a knight on a white horse in Episode 3).
Maybe she DID care about Battler's sin, but the circumstances only allowed her to mention it in Episode 4.
The parents were all missing, so that might have something to do with it.
Well, the most "unusual" part in EP4 is Kinzo, I think it does have its huge importance.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:01   Link #10046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Haha, I bet it's because he tries to grope her in Episode 1 :P

Other than that, though, I can't really imagine too many Shannon-Battler hints (putting aside Battler mentioning him being a knight on a white horse in Episode 3).
Maybe she DID care about Battler's sin, but the circumstances only allowed her to mention it in Episode 4.
The parents were all missing, so that might have something to do with it.
There doesn't have to be many hints. A mystery's answer only normally has a few towards the real answer while others normally have a lot more.

And yeah looking back at the eps she could.

Ep1: Dies 1st Twilight?
Ep2: Gets chased out of the parlor. So she never even has a chance to even try to say anything to Battler
Ep3: Dies 1st Twilight
Ep4: Mentions the sin, because she has the opportunity.

It is possible.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:14   Link #10047
DaBackpack
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Hmm. What if Battler's sin is actually a lot worse than a broken promise?

I'm sorry, but what I'm alarmed by is that Battler's sin is 6 years old, and Ange is six years old.

From a genetic standpoint, let's think of it this way:
(Assuming no hair dyes have been used
*Kyrie does not have red hair
*Rudolf does not have red hair
*Asumu's hair color is...?
*Battler's hair is red.
*Ange's hair is red.
Red hair could be a recessive gene. Therefore, if both Kyrie and Rudolf have recessive red-hair genes, then it's possible for the kids to have red hair.
Ange is the daughter of Kyrie and Rudolf. At least, that's what we're led to believe.
It is very unlikely that Kyrie and Rudolf gave birth to two red-haired kids.
The odds are much more likely if Battler were to... you know.
What if... oh god... this is going to sound absolutely terrible.

I suspect that Battler had sexual relations with another female character on the show. This could very well have been Shannon, and Ange is Battler's sin. After all, if Shannon gave birth to Ange, then Shannon would have been 10 years old. I believe that this is old enough for childbirth, albeit barely.

This conforms to the Shannon-Battler relationship, as well as explaining the circumstances behind Ange's birth (the six years coincidence).

One problem with this is this red truth: Ange is Battler's brother.

Even though they weren't in the same generation, they could have treated each other like siblings.


...I'm not trying to be a pervert here, just bringing to light an observation.

If Jessica and Battler did love each other, yet Battler got close to Shannon to make Jessica jealous, this could come about.

After all, he is Rudolf's son (a pervert).

Eh, what do I know. My original idea was Battler impregnated his own mother.

...Or, it could very well have been Battler left the family registry because Rudolf impregnated Kyrie.

Maybe the six years coincidence is just a red herring.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:24   Link #10048
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Hmm. What if Battler's sin is actually a lot worse than a broken promise?

I'm sorry, but what I'm alarmed by is that Battler's sin is 6 years old, and Ange is six years old.

From a genetic standpoint, let's think of it this way:
(Assuming no hair dyes have been used
*Kyrie does not have red hair
*Rudolf does not have red hair
*Asumu's hair color is...?
*Battler's hair is red.
*Ange's hair is red.
Red hair could be a recessive gene. Therefore, if both Kyrie and Rudolf have recessive red-hair genes, then it's possible for the kids to have red hair.
Ange is the daughter of Kyrie and Rudolf. At least, that's what we're led to believe.
It is very unlikely that Kyrie and Rudolf gave birth to two red-haired kids.
The odds are much more likely if Battler were to... you know.
What if... oh god... this is going to sound absolutely terrible.

I suspect that Battler had sexual relations with another female character on the show. This could very well have been Shannon, and Ange is Battler's sin. After all, if Shannon gave birth to Ange, then Shannon would have been 10 years old. I believe that this is old enough for childbirth, albeit barely.

This conforms to the Shannon-Battler relationship, as well as explaining the circumstances behind Ange's birth (the six years coincidence).

One problem with this is this red truth: Ange is Battler's brother.

Even though they weren't in the same generation, they could have treated each other like siblings.


...I'm not trying to be a pervert here, just bringing to light an observation.

If Jessica and Battler did love each other, yet Battler got close to Shannon to make Jessica jealous, this could come about.

After all, he is Rudolf's son (a pervert).

Eh, what do I know. My original idea was Battler impregnated his own mother.

...Or, it could very well have been Battler left the family registry because Rudolf impregnated Kyrie.

Maybe the six years coincidence is just a red herring.
No, no, no, I don't want this. I don't want this. And if this turned out to be true, we will never have a clance of seeing an Umineko Chiru anime. And Battler was kind of shown as imature when he was 12, making sickening jokes, rough housing with Jessica. I don't think sex was on his mind. And I would think the parents would have hunted Battler down.

But I don't think the six years is a coincidence. I think; Battler leaves due to his dad having sex with Kyrie. And this caused Shannon to go emo, because the one person she thinks holds some compassion for her, betrays her hopes, and makes it seem like he doesn't care at all for her.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:26   Link #10049
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
No, no, no, I don't want this. I don't want this. And if this turned out to be true, we will never have a clance of seeing a Umineko Chiru anime. And Battler was kind of shown as imature when he was 12, making sickening jokes, rough housing with Jessica. I don't think sex was on his mind. And I would think the parents would have hunted Battler down.

But I don't think the six years is a coincidence. I think; Battler leaves due to his dad having sex with Kyrie. And this caused Shannon to go emo, because the one person she thinks holds some compassion for her, betrays her hopes, and makes it seem like he doesn't care at all for her.
XD XD XD

Okay, I definitely like your theory better.

I don't think Ryukishi07 seems to be the kind of guy to break those kind of social taboos... you know, the kinds with children.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:30   Link #10050
DgBarca
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Battler sin was 6 years ago ?
Battler caused Asumu's death anyone ?
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:31   Link #10051
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
XD XD XD

Okay, I definitely like your theory better.

I don't think Ryukishi07 seems to be the kind of guy to break those kind of social taboos... you know, the kinds with children.
This also explains 34's mention of Beato being emo when she first approached her. After all, it is very possible Jessica and Shannon weren't exactly friends maybe 6 years ago. George considered himself superior so it is possible he didn't pay much attention to Shannon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca
Battler sin was 6 years ago ?
Battler caused Asumu's death anyone ?
This isn't really possible. Beato implies that his sin was on Rokkenjima. She says "Don't you remember a sin having to do with our surroundings." Or something like that.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:36   Link #10052
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Battler sin was 6 years ago ?
Battler caused Asumu's death anyone ?
Yeah, I forgot about that one.

Let's think of it this way:

Jessica and Battler loved each other, but were too afraid to mention it to each other. To "test the water" with Jessica, Battler made his promise to Shannon. Shannon fell in love with Battler. However, somewhere in this, Battler is told to kill Asumu. He does so, and is surprised to see that Rudolf gets together with Kyrie quite quickly. He notices that Kyrie becomes pregnant, and then becomes ashamed of himself; after all, he was the one who was responsible. He leaves the family register, which upsets both Jessica and Shannon. Therefore, his sin is actually killing Asumu, which created an avalanche effect and created the Rokkenjima that we know of today.

Or, if Battler didn't kill anyone, then this:

Jessica and Battler loved each other, but were too afraid to mention it to each other. To "test the water" with Jessica, Battler made his promise to Shannon. Battler finds out that Asumu is dead. He notices that Kyrie becomes pregnant, and then becomes ashamed of himself. He leaves the family register, which upsets both Jessica and Shannon. Therefore, his sin is breaking his promise with either Jessica or Shannon.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:41   Link #10053
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Yeah, I forgot about that one.

Let's think of it this way:

Jessica and Battler loved each other, but were too afraid to mention it to each other. To "test the water" with Jessica, Battler made his promise to Shannon. Shannon fell in love with Battler. However, somewhere in this, Battler is told to kill Asumu. He does so, and is surprised to see that Rudolf gets together with Kyrie quite quickly. He notices that Kyrie becomes pregnant, and then becomes ashamed of himself; after all, he was the one who was responsible. He leaves the family register, which upsets both Jessica and Shannon. Therefore, his sin is actually killing Asumu, which created an avalanche effect and created the Rokkenjima that we know of today.

Or, if Battler didn't kill anyone, then this:

Jessica and Battler loved each other, but were too afraid to mention it to each other. To "test the water" with Jessica, Battler made his promise to Shannon. Battler finds out that Asumu is dead. He notices that Kyrie becomes pregnant, and then becomes ashamed of himself. He leaves the family register, which upsets both Jessica and Shannon. Therefore, his sin is breaking his promise with either Jessica or Shannon.
First the sin has to be on Rokkenjima, Beatrice almost declares so. Second, JessicaxBattler... doesn't seem likely. They played around and wrested each other, they seem more like friends and nothing more to me.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:46   Link #10054
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
The following is not a theory. Meaning that I am not about to write out in detail how it could explain everything -- I am not sure it even can. I am only detailing something which I think makes sense and explains things. It is more of a 'whydunnit' than 'whodunnit'. It is very probably wrong in many places, but maybe you ladies and gentlemen can hammer it into shape.

So let's call this a Dispersed Beatrice Hypothesis. Let me try to answer some major questions...
[list][*]What is Battler's sin?

In 1980, Battler was in fact in love with Jessica rather than Shannon. The love was mutual, but never declared, with Jessica being well on her way to becoming a tsundere. Battler actually proposed to Shannon instead to test Jessica's feelings, which resulted in him making the promise he subsequently broke that Jessica treated seriously.

In Ep3, Jessica says directly to Battler for no visible reason: "A community of girls with the wrong impressions can be scary. They could have some secret feud behind your back, and hurt someone or make them cry without you noticing it, right?"

Furthermore, in Ep5 Battler himself describes how that happened: "By that argument... ...it really isn't a stretch to say it's like love between shy elementary or middle school-aged kids. ...Even though they really do want it, they don't have the courage to reveal their feelings, so they wait uncomfortably for the other person to confess......and by the time summer ends, nothing's happened. Heheh, sometimes they'll even go out with a different person. That's what my first love was like, ihihi."

[*]Who is Beatrice?

There is more than one person laying claim to the name 'Beatrice', and both Jessica and Shannon are claimants. It fits the red about the sin not being between Beatrice and Battler because at the moment it is uttered, Battler is actually talking to Jessica!

Through Kinzo's will, related to us in 'Kinzo's speech in Ep4, the siblings are no longer eligible to receive any inheritance from him in any circumstances, but his grandchildren still are, if the headship transfer procedure is followed. It can proceed in one of two possible ways -- either one of them solves the epitaph, or one is selected through a headship test.

Jessica believes Battler is not actually her cousin, having heard of the circumstances of his birth, and therefore thinks that his only chance of becoming the heir in a legit manner is solving the epitaph. Solving the epitaph and remembering his sin would actually make their union possible in her eyes, even though it would be a miraclous 'Beatrice victory' which is normally impossible. (One can probably happen, but not both.) However, she cannot possibly convey her feelings openly or even admit to herself she still has them. She instead burdens Shannon with them, as if Shannon does not have enough on her plate.
This is a theory Oliver thought up, and I don't know why but I like it. That's where I got the BattlerxJessica pairing from.
And for any claims of incest, I'll repeat: Elfen Lied did it too :P

Of course, we don't have too much evidence about this. But still: a love triangle would be a good motive, or at least a good starting point for a murder plot to arise.

As for the crime being on Rokkenjima, didn't Asumu come to the island, too?
If Asumu died on the island, then there's no contradiction. Plus, no one would have mentioned it because it was declared a taboo; basically, they didn't want to bring it up.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:56   Link #10055
Laserworm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
"A community of girls with the wrong impressions can be scary. They could have some secret feud behind your back, and hurt someone or make them cry without you noticing it, right?"
In that statment aren't that talking about if Battler is dating anyone and he says he dabbles with a few, not picking just one girl. Jessica's statment seems completely logical to me.

Quote:
Furthermore, in Ep5 Battler himself describes how that happened: "By that argument... ...it really isn't a stretch to say it's like love between shy elementary or middle school-aged kids. ...Even though they really do want it, they don't have the courage to reveal their feelings, so they wait uncomfortably for the other person to confess......and by the time summer ends, nothing's happened. Heheh, sometimes they'll even go out with a different person. That's what my first love was like, ihihi."
This works more with Shannon I feel. He loved her, but he was too shy to completely confess, and so she ended up dating George. And doesn't Battler say "Oh well; goodbye my first love" after Jessica tells Battler that GeorgexShannon exists.

Quote:
As for the crime being on Rokkenjima, didn't Asumu come to the island, too?
If Asumu died on the island, then there's no contradiction. Plus, no one would have mentioned it because it was declared a taboo; basically, they didn't want to bring it up.
I'm pretty sure that would have been big news if she had died on the boat. And it seems imo that Asumu just died in a car accident. There is no clues to suggest Asumu died on Rokkenjima, and we should at least have one clue about that in ep1-4 besides the mention of Battler's sin.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:03   Link #10056
DgBarca
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
In that statment aren't that talking about if Battler is dating anyone and he says he dabbles with a few, not picking just one girl. Jessica's statment seems completely logical to me.



This works more with Shannon I feel. He loved her, but he was too shy to completely confess, and so she ended up dating George. And doesn't Battler say "Oh well; goodbye my first love" after Jessica tells Battler that GeorgexShannon exists.



I'm pretty sure that would have been big news if she had died on the boat. And it seems imo that Asumu just died in a car accident. There is no clues to suggest Asumu died on Rokkenjima, and we should at least have one clue about that in ep1-4 besides the mention of Battler's sin.
Natshui killed Asumu and Baby-Asumu-Battler ? seems a bit too wrong here, it's true.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:04   Link #10057
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
In that statment aren't that talking about if Battler is dating anyone and he says he dabbles with a few, not picking just one girl. Jessica's statment seems completely logical to me.



This works more with Shannon I feel. He loved her, but he was too shy to completely confess, and so she ended up dating George. And doesn't Battler say "Oh well; goodbye my first love" after Jessica tells Battler that GeorgexShannon exists.



I'm pretty sure that would have been big news if she had died on the boat. And it seems imo that Asumu just died in a car accident. There is no clues to suggest Asumu died on Rokkenjima, and we should at least have one clue about that in ep1-4 besides the mention of Battler's sin.
True. Now I'm tempted to watch Episodes 1-4 again and write down every piece of dialogue that is spoken between Battler and Shannon or Jessica XD

Although I must say I am intrigued by the idea of BattlerxShannon, especially the hints behind it.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:07   Link #10058
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Originally Posted by CainSonozaki View Post
Sorry to break current line of conversation but i started thinking about Maria's Rose. Does anyone have any theories about its appearance, and more so disappearance? I just think there has to be some significance since as far as my memory serves its one of the few things shown consistently in every episode.

I have a little theory as far as its disappearance. "Beatrice" took the rose and waited til Maria was alone to give her the letter. Not sure where though cuz as far as i remember, the cousins checked the whole rose garden, or tried.
I forget. What color was Maria's rose again? The reason I ask is because they mention the that different colored roses have symbolism in episode 4 and 5.

Well just from a quick Google search I found
  • The blue rose represents things that are impossible or unattainable because blue roses don't naturally occur in nature.
  • The red rose is more obviously about passion and love, but it can also represent courage.
  • a yellow rose used to represent jealousy in victorian times, but today it represents friendship, joy and caring.
  • Pink roses can also represent love like red roses, but they also represent femininity, elegance, refinement, and gratitude.
  • white roses represent purity, humility, truth, reverance, and innocence. It's also called the "bridal rose" and it represents young love in Scotland.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Who set us up the bomb?

Jessica did, as a time limit on Battler solving the epitaph. She is also the one who recovered the money from the gold stash to pay the families in the worst case. Shannon is the one who sent the letters on Jessica's orders.
Believe it or not Krauss and Kinzo are probably the most likely candidates to cause the bomb and/or collaborate with the person who set it up if you don't consider 07151129 connected to it. The reason is that both of them were involved with construction on the island. And the rock on volcanic islands is pretty thick. It wouldn't be unusal for them to use explosives to create the foundations for their construction projects and there could be some explosives left over. Of course neither of them have to have malicious intentions for these to be put into use.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
[*]Who is Beatrice-2?

Kanon is actually the child of Beatrice-2, the Man From 19 Years Ago, and both the son and grandson of Kinzo. He is weak and sickly, and doesn't look his age because of inbreeding and the fact that unlike Battler, he did not have access to steroids. Kinzo and Genji were actually aware of that, but Jessica and Shannon weren't.


Kanon firmly detests anything related to Beatrice, because he is aware of the circumstances of his birth, and does not approve of Shannon's or Jessica's involvement with the idea. He is involved in an attempt to strike back at 'the murderer' in more than one episode. In Ep1, he fakes his own death with cooperation of Nanjo and Jessica because he suspects Shannon of being the first twilight murderer, and shoots Natsuhi in the end because he believes her to be the mastermind.[/list]
I didn't think about the inbreeding part, but I have to admit that does explain a lot of things. I wonder if Rosa knows about this too. Because if she did she might actually feel threatened because Kanon would be the youngest sibling after Rosa and since he's male (presumably) despite his age he'd be more qualified than Rosa to be an heir.


One thing I find interesting is that when Shannon said that Battler said the white horse thing she said he said this when he left. If he left earlier than everyone else maybe he made that promise to all of them as a farewell. Them being Shannon Jessica and Maria.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:11   Link #10059
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
True. Now I'm tempted to watch Episodes 1-4 again and write down every piece of dialogue that is spoken between Battler and Shannon or Jessica XD

Although I must say I am intrigued by the idea of BattlerxShannon, especially the hints behind it.
As far as I see their are at least 4 possible hints to Shannon liking Battler at some point in eps 1-4.

Quote:
One thing I find interesting is that when Shannon said that Battler said the white horse thing she said he said this when he left. If he left earlier than everyone else maybe he made that promise to all of them as a farewell. Them being Shannon Jessica and Maria.
Nothing as far as I can remember suggests his family left early. I doubt more than one boat go's to and from Rokkenjima, so I'm pretty sure Maria is out. Sorry Judoh. And I thought Shannon said that it was addressed to her, or Battler said that or someone, but I could be wrong.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:12   Link #10060
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
As far as I see their are at least 4 possible hints to Shannon liking Battler at some point.
I had suspected it, then the Episode 5 hint was a red flag for me.
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