AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-05-17, 16:15   Link #10061
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
And I thought Shannon said that it was addressed to her, or Battler said that or someone, but I could be wrong.
Nope all she said was that Battler said it when he left. She never mentioned who it was addressed to. She also said that a lot of other things happened back then, but that he didn't want to remember.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:18   Link #10062
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
More emo Shannon thoughts.

In ep6 were shown a scene where Battler is asked what kind of girl he likes. He says blonde and busty, or maybe like Jessica. Or something like that. He is saying this to Shannon, because he is too nervous to confess his love for her right there. Shannon being emotionally fragile thinks that her hopes of Battler liking her are destroyed. But her hopes are restored later that day when he makes that promise to her. So she is even more crushed when he doesn't come back and really does think he didn't care about her, and thinks what he said to her was true.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:24   Link #10063
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
More emo Shannon thoughts.

In ep6 were shown a scene where Battler is asked what kind of girl he likes. He says blonde and busty, or maybe like Jessica. Or something like that. He is saying this to Shannon, because he is too nervous to confess his love for her right there. Shannon being emotionally fragile thinks that her hopes of Battler liking her are destroyed. But her hopes are restored later that day when he makes that promise to her. So she is even more crushed when he doesn't come back and really does think he didn't care about her, and thinks what he said to her was true.
Man, I REALLY want Episode 6 to be translated now XD

This can also support BattlerxJessica, but I haven't read Ep.6 yet so I dunno
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:29   Link #10064
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Is there ever a point where Shannon forgets something that she was told? In ep3 the cousins claim Shannon has such a good memory, but the only thing she ever brings up is stuff of Battler. If I could find a spot which implies she forgot something, it could be pointed as a huge hint that she remembers so much about 1 person she hasn't seen, nor heard about in 6 years.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:32   Link #10065
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Is there ever a point where Shannon forgets something that she was told? In ep3 the cousins claim Shannon has such a good memory, but the only thing she ever brings up is stuff of Battler. If I could find a spot which implies she forgot something, it could be pointed as a huge hint that she remembers so much about 1 person she hasn't seen, nor heard about in 6 years.
She seems to forget the rule George made to not call him "Sama" when they're alone.

That's the only thing I'm aware of, but I think it's more of a habit than not remembering.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:34   Link #10066
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
I see she really does fit well with George-aniki, nothing I can do about that. Goodbye my fleeting first love from six years ago. Which means that those embarressing lines Shannon had just held off on a moment ago, might have had something too do with that.
Battler has just learned about GeorgexShannon, he doesn't know about JessicaxKanon yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
George-aniki was always frank with the cousins, but around servants he always took a gentlemanly attitude.
This could mean that Battler is saying that George didn't really get close to the servants 6 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler
Which means that those embarressing lines Shannon had just held off on a moment ago, might have had something too do with that.
This statment Battler says seems to imply that Battler said more cheesy lines like that to Shannon before.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:46   Link #10067
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
Battler has just learned about GeorgexShannon, he doesn't know about JessicaxKanon yet.



This could mean that Battler is saying that George didn't really get close to the servants 6 years ago.



This statment Battler says seems to imply that Battler said more cheesy lines like that to Shannon before.
Interesting. I'll examine Episode 2 this week (Shannon backstory) when I have time. Maybe I missed something big...
...As well as Episode 1, because of Ryukishi's hint.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 16:50   Link #10068
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
In ep two Shannon sort of breaks down when Rosa is accusing them right? Yes I checked, Rosa accuses Shannon of betrayal, and Shannon breaks down. This could be a clue that Shannon is emotionally fragile.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.

Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-17 at 17:04.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 17:14   Link #10069
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Now that we're on the topic of love, don't forget this:

"Without love, the truth cannot be seen."

This is mentioned multiple times, and I've always thought that it was a loaded statement (it had hidden meanings).
Depends on the translation, I guess.
Could this possibly hint at a motive...?

If so, then this ShannonxBattler thing could be our answer, or at least could lead us towards our answer.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 17:18   Link #10070
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Now that we're on the topic of love, don't forget this:

"Without love, the truth cannot be seen."

This is mentioned multiple times, and I've always thought that it was a loaded statement (it had hidden meanings).
Depends on the translation, I guess.
Could this possibly hint at a motive...?

If so, then this ShannonxBattler thing could be our answer, or at least could lead us towards our answer.
I think what this statment is trying to imply is that 'if we don't have love for the characters; we will suspect everything about them, and get caught in red herrings. We must trust and believe in the characters.' But this is just what I kind of thought after this phrase is mention in ep4 and in ep5.

One way to look at this is with this example.

If we look at what Beato says from without love, that she is a cruel witch who is just trying to get Battler to submit. Scenes and statments she saids we make us think that, even if what she is really meaning is far from that.

But if we look at what Beato says with love for her, we see that she is trying to show Battler the truth, and that she isn't a cruel witch, but actually a tragic person trying to help Battler and the Ushiromiya family.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 17:34   Link #10071
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Well since we're on quotes here are some I found interesting. George and Shannon seem to be the people who talk about love the most. They actually use a lot of cheesy lines that I didn't notice until I reread them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George
However even if rocks were thrown at us I'm sure they'd be just like confetti celebrating us.

Now I can't even remember those lonely days when I was jealous of couples who were completely oblivious to their surroundings.

To use an old fashioned phrase these would be Rose-colored days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon
Certainly this might not be the real sea...But if those little guys swimming in there believe it's the sea it certainly is the sea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
She wasn't the only one who wanted to credit an encounter to a miracle or serendipity. It might be a universal thing all girls share.

For a man like me 70% of an encounter with a girl is an endeavor to try and please her, while 20% of it is raw courage. and the remaining 10% is luck.

What she chooses to beleive weighs very little in my thoughts...Maybe that way of thinking is in itself calculated and typical of men.
There are also some cheesy lines George and Shannon use in episode 2 like when Shannon says "a girl's stomach is made of magic, au". And when George says "If you had said that the ocean is a deep blue only when around me I would've given you full marks and a prize"

A lot of these lovey dovey lines are really emberrassing, which I guess is why Erika doesn't like all the lovey dovey stuff.

There is also this quote from episode 3 that might be relevant to 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatrice to Kinzo episode 3
I Have known you for a long time. I think of you as my best friend, even as a father... That is why I want you so much to tell me... You should know... who I am...
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 17:41   Link #10072
Laserworm
Maelstorm-Fenrir
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: On Rokkenjima (I'm the 19th person)
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to Laserworm Send a message via MSN to Laserworm
This is something I didn't notice before that scene with the cousins talking at the beach doesn't happen in ep4. But Battler does say if he got some share of the gold he would give some to Shannon.

A little off topic from the love talk, but Rosa gets really mad when Kyrie suggests that Maria might be lying in ep4.
__________________

Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
Laserworm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 18:03   Link #10073
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I thought of it exactly the opposite: I thought it symbolized Shannon "selling her soul to the Devil." In other words, she's become "Beatrice" and will do anything to accomplish her goal.

But that's just an unfounded assumption on an observation I saw several months ago XD
This might not be far off. Before the themesong plays Shannon actually compares her promise to Beatrice to break the mirror to eating the fruit of knowledge in the bible. (she also mentions using a motor boat for some reason) I still can't beleive Ryukishi used that biblical metaphor there for how "she became human" it's such a basic writing mistake, but at least it's not as misused as in a certain other popular romance novel I know of... And she at least felt guilty about it. It still comes out of nowhere though.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 19:18   Link #10074
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
This might not be far off. Before the themesong plays Shannon actually compares her promise to Beatrice to break the mirror to eating the fruit of knowledge in the bible. (she also mentions using a motor boat for some reason) I still can't beleive Ryukishi used that biblical metaphor there for how "she became human" it's such a basic writing mistake, but at least it's not as misused as in a certain other popular romance novel I know of... And she at least felt guilty about it. It still comes out of nowhere though.
Gee... I wonder what certain other popular romance novel you could be addressing?
Oh wait, is it synonymous to utter crap? Then it must be none other than Twilight!

Well, Shannon does wish to be human. This is mentioned many times; Kanon and Shannon do not want to be furniture, but rather human beings.

The Bible metaphor actually fits if you think about it; after Eve takes a bite from the Forbidden Fruit, she becomes corrupted and at point she truly becomes human. From knowledge comes self-awareness, and from self-awareness comes independent decision-making.

By acknowledging that she WANTS something, she takes the vow to actually become a human being by making her own choices. This makes her all the more suspicious as the main culprit.

It's ironic, but in essence Shannon has to sacrifice her humanity to become human.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 19:37   Link #10075
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Gee... I wonder what certain other popular romance novel you could be addressing?
Oh wait, is it synonymous to utter crap? Then it must be none other than Twilight!
Hahaha oh wow you guessed it right! I was laughing my ass off when I made that connection. The metaphor probably fits a little better in Umineko though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
The Bible metaphor actually fits if you think about it; after Eve takes a bite from the Forbidden Fruit, she becomes corrupted and at point she truly becomes human. From knowledge comes self-awareness, and from self-awareness comes independent decision-making.
I really hope that is NOT what he meant to say by adding that in there. Because it would have the same problem as Twilight has. What's implied in twilight is that if you eat the forbidden fruit you'll enter into paradise. When what it's trying to say in the bible is the reverse. You were already in paradise and you had all the choices in the world except for that one thing. By doing that thing you get kicked out of paradise.

Well in twilight's case it's more ridiculous because the forbidden fruit is a glampire...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
It's ironic, but in essence Shannon has to sacrifice her humanity to become human.
That's one way to look at it.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 19:57   Link #10076
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Hahaha oh wow you guessed it right! I was laughing my ass off when I made that connection. The metaphor probably fits a little better in Umineko though.



I really hope that is NOT what he meant to say by adding that in there. Because it would have the same problem as Twilight has. What's implied in twilight is that if you eat the forbidden fruit you'll enter into paradise. When what it's trying to say in the bible is the reverse. You were already in paradise and you had all the choices in the world except for that one thing. By doing that thing you get kicked out of paradise.
I'm not trying to say that "being a human is good," but in the Bible Adam and Eve had their Paradise and were expelled because they thirsted for infinite knowledge. Shannon is tired of her ignorance; sure, by keeping her hands free of blood, she can live an "easy" life as a servant.

What connects her to Eve, though, is that she WANTS the knowledge. It's not necessarily a rational choice, since she ruins so much with her want of knowledge.

While I don't condone murder (or Eve's actions) I can understand why they did what they did. It is what it is. If anything about the Bible is to believed (I won't go there) then humans are flawed. Shannon likewise makes the move from "the easy, guided, non-decision making" life, to the life where she could deviate from what was "right". This parallels Eve's decision to be a flawed human, rather than a perfect being.

In essence, the sold their souls to the Devil. In the Bible, it's more literal--- didn't the Serpent convince Eve to take the fruit?

Although I will concede that perhaps it's not the best metaphor for the situation, there is a bit of merit behind it.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 20:01   Link #10077
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Eh... my problem with it is that that way of looking at it, it's on shaky ground. At least it's not focused on throughout the entire story like Twilight is (at least I hope it's not). That's one of the main "religious" critiques of the twilight series. That they focus so much on eating the forbidden fruit as a positive thing throughout the books when it's not supposed to be.

Gegh...I think we should just drop it this is getting too embarrassing to talk about .
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 20:02   Link #10078
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
"Without love, it can't be seen" is something of a trap. If anything, Battler suffers from an excess of love (to the point of actually being called out on it in ep5 and 6 for his unwillingness to expose the culprit).

Love is the tool by which we are made to doubt the guilt of characters. After all, if we just guessed 18 times, surely we'd be "right" at least one of them! Of course, without care for what we're doing, or any interest in understanding the root causes, we're just callously tearing a book apart page by page until we find the one we're looking for... but we might still find it.

Making us care about the characters places us in the same dilemma Battler faces: At least one of these people is a murderer. Even if every killer but one is doing so out of self-defense or misguided but noble reasons, there would appear to be at least one who has premeditated not only murder, but likely mass murder. Granted, it's possible it's all a coincidence piled on coincidence, but I don't think that would satisfy many. So we must accept that a culprit exists.

If that is so, who may we suspect? Aren't we going to feel terrible about it no matter who we decide to finger? Each time a culprit is settled upon, it seems like ryukishi takes steps to rehabilitate them in our eyes. Look at how Natsuhi went from highly suspect in some episodes to completely beyond reproach in any episodes, just because of ep5.

How do we reconcile an excess of love blinding us to seeking truth with the assertion - repeated over and over in the story - that we cannot find the truth without the very thing preventing us from clearly considering suspects?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I'm not trying to say that "being a human is good," but in the Bible Adam and Eve had their Paradise and were expelled because they thirsted for infinite knowledge. Shannon is tired of her ignorance; sure, by keeping her hands free of blood, she can live an "easy" life as a servant.

What connects her to Eve, though, is that she WANTS the knowledge. It's not necessarily a rational choice, since she ruins so much with her want of knowledge.

While I don't condone murder (or Eve's actions) I can understand why they did what they did. It is what it is. If anything about the Bible is to believed (I won't go there) then humans are flawed. Shannon likewise makes the move from "the easy, guided, non-decision making" life, to the life where she could deviate from what was "right". This parallels Eve's decision to be a flawed human, rather than a perfect being.

In essence, the sold their souls to the Devil. In the Bible, it's more literal--- didn't the Serpent convince Eve to take the fruit?

Although I will concede that perhaps it's not the best metaphor for the situation, there is a bit of merit behind it.
Satan makes the argument in Paradise Lost to Eve (as the Serpent) that suffering in knowledge is better than prospering in ignorance. While Milton portrays Satan as entirely disingenuous (although maddeningly charismatic), he does concede in the poem's end that the physical paradise of Eden is inferior to the spiritual paradise accessible to humans through faith and reason - faculties none of them would possess were it not for that original sin. In other words, a grave sin can nevertheless lead to a tremendous bounty; Adam and Eve sinned and brought about suffering, mistrust, and death, and for this sin Christ had to die, but as a result of his death man now possesses knowledge and salvation.

So we can't look at Shannon too harshly as an Eve figure. She is willing to trade an inferior paradise (living comfortably as a servant) for a superior one (living for love as a fully developed human being), aware of the suffering it may cause her and others. Kanon could be thought of as the innocent Adam convinced to eat of the fruit as well; he doesn't understand Shannon's perspective until he experiences the "sins" of love himself, whereupon he begins to awaken to a greater humanity. Whether this is a good thing is obviously still in question, depending on how you suspect Shannon and Kanon.

The mind is its own place, and in itself / Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.

EDIT: Note that in ep6, it is stated that if Shannon or Kanon finds love, neither can remain on the island. Adam sins in Paradise Lost in part because he cannot accept living without Eve and is willing to be punished with her if it means not losing her.

Last edited by Renall; 2010-05-17 at 20:15.
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 20:50   Link #10079
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
"Without love, the truth cannot be seen."

As long as we're still talking about it, I might as well post my interpretation of that line.

I think it's like Battler said at the beginning of EP5. When Natsuhi has a tea party with Beatrice, and Bern destroys the illusion. Because Bern had no love for Natsuhi, the illusion couldn't be seen.

I'll use EP2 as an example. If you ignore the fantasy scenes, you'll notice that Maria and Rosa don't get along at all. Also, Jessica and Kanon and George and Shannon don't interact much either. But if you pay attention to the fantasy scenes, you'll notice that they all loved each other very much. The noble actions of Rosa vs. Goats at the end are a huge contrast with her actions at the beginning of the Episode. If you flat out ignore the fantasy scenes, you would never know that Rosa loved Maria as much as she is shown to love her at the end.

Basically, if you ignore the fantasy scenes (meaning that you have no love), the truth can't be seen. You can't see what the characters think or feel about their loved ones. Just imagine every Episode without fantasy scenes and you'll get almost nothing to work with. But if you take the magical scenes into consideration, you can truly understand each character.

That's why I was so determined in deciphering the fantasy scenes (Ronove = Genji, stakes = adults, etc) so that the truth might be hidden in there. Maybe they aren't literal representations, but they might be "character development" for their human counterpart. At the very least, you can see how characters react in different situations, which is very important to figuring out the "whydunnit" of the mystery.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 21:00   Link #10080
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
"Without love, the truth cannot be seen."

As long as we're still talking about it, I might as well post my interpretation of that line.

I think it's like Battler said at the beginning of EP5. When Natsuhi has a tea party with Beatrice, and Bern destroys the illusion. Because Bern had no love for Natsuhi, the illusion couldn't be seen.

I'll use EP2 as an example. If you ignore the fantasy scenes, you'll notice that Maria and Rosa don't get along at all. Also, Jessica and Kanon and George and Shannon don't interact much either. But if you pay attention to the fantasy scenes, you'll notice that they all loved each other very much. The noble actions of Rosa vs. Goats at the end are a huge contrast with her actions at the beginning of the Episode. If you flat out ignore the fantasy scenes, you would never know that Rosa loved Maria as much as she is shown to love her at the end.

Basically, if you ignore the fantasy scenes (meaning that you have no love), the truth can't be seen. You can't see what the characters think or feel about their loved ones. Just imagine every Episode without fantasy scenes and you'll get almost nothing to work with. But if you take the magical scenes into consideration, you can truly understand each character.

That's why I was so determined in deciphering the fantasy scenes (Ronove = Genji, stakes = adults, etc) so that the truth might be hidden in there. Maybe they aren't literal representations, but they might be "character development" for their human counterpart. At the very least, you can see how characters react in different situations, which is very important to figuring out the "whydunnit" of the mystery.
I really never thought of it this way. Well, I sort of did, but not to this extent.

By "love" I always imagined it as compassion. By having compassion for the opponent's claims, you hear another perspective of the story.

As stated in Episode 5, multiple truths can exist at the same time as long as they don't interfere with each other. In the Grand Court, these truths combine and form one final truth.

The actual occurences from the "non-fantasy" side could possibly match up with the "fantasy" side's emotion.

I like this idea a lot though.
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.