AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-05-17, 21:05   Link #10081
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Erika is illustrative of this when she's accusing Natsuhi in ep5. Since Natsuhi's love for Krauss isn't written down anywhere or verifiable outside of her own assertions, Erika claims it doesn't really exist. This goes quite against just about everything we've been shown of Natsuhi's personality, so the mere fact that she cannot "prove" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On the other hand, the fact that it's unprovable is still out there...
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 21:09   Link #10082
DaBackpack
Blick Winkel
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Erika is illustrative of this when she's accusing Natsuhi in ep5. Since Natsuhi's love for Krauss isn't written down anywhere or verifiable outside of her own assertions, Erika claims it doesn't really exist. This goes quite against just about everything we've been shown of Natsuhi's personality, so the mere fact that she cannot "prove" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On the other hand, the fact that it's unprovable is still out there...
And that is why SuperBitch will never be happy in life
(That's my nickname for Erika, haha)

Well, I now have a reason to begin to take the fantasy scenes more seriously...
DaBackpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 21:15   Link #10083
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Erika is illustrative of this when she's accusing Natsuhi in ep5. Since Natsuhi's love for Krauss isn't written down anywhere or verifiable outside of her own assertions, Erika claims it doesn't really exist. This goes quite against just about everything we've been shown of Natsuhi's personality, so the mere fact that she cannot "prove" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. On the other hand, the fact that it's unprovable is still out there...
Yep. If Beatrice = Ryukishi and Battler = the readers, then Erika = the readers who want to solve the mystery and will easily pin anyone as the culprit for the sake of solving it. Basically, since Erika's method of solving the mystery failed miserably, then that means we should do the opposite of Erika. She ignored the fantasy scenes. So we need to pay attention to them in order to find not just "one answer" but "the right answer".
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 21:16   Link #10084
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
So then why is Mammon the only stake that gets character development?

I can see why you think that they could show us another part of the character's personality, but Mammon is the only stake we really learn more about. The other stakes don't really get a lot of focus.

It's an interesting theory, but like I keep saying it doesn't tell us a why about anything. All you have for their "whydunnits" is their corresponding sins. The stakes never give any reason for why they kill people. Probably because they never do.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 21:20   Link #10085
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
So then why is Mammon the only stake that gets character development?

I can see why you think that they could show us another part of the character's personality, but Mammon is the only stake we really learn more about. The other stakes don't really get a lot of focus.

It's an interesting theory, but like I keep saying it doesn't tell us a why about anything. All you have for their "whydunnits" is their corresponding sins. The stakes never give any reason for why they kill people. Probably because they never do.
It was mentioned a few pages back, but it might be better to go by the descriptions in their TIPS to learn about them. Their personalities are described there, so we can use that to learn more about the adults.

Also, for Mammon: if Mammon = Eva, then you can see that she really wanted a loving relationship with Ange. The Witch's Tanabata TIP isn't even needed to notice this.
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-17, 23:47   Link #10086
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
I thought Okonogi gave the best idea for that "without love" line. It isn't anything complicated, you just have to avoid looking at every action as a hateful one or you'll never see their true intentions. I'll use Episode 2 as an example. Beatrice conquered Battler and had him humiliated and broken. He was nothing more than furniture and Beatrice repeatedly rubbed it in his face and had him killed. After that she mercilessly tortured Rosa while knowing Battler was watching. You can identify this as a poor winner and Beatrice as a truly horrible bitch. But if you don't look past it then you can't see her true intentions. In Episode 5 it's revealed why Beatrice did that, in order to stir Battler to get up and fight her again. It isn't something you have to look too deep into. It just means that you can't look at every action Beatrice takes to be a cruel and malicious one, you have to look past the actual action and see the reason behind it. That's why Beatrice said use that chessboard thinking to Battler near the end of Episode 4. Both are a connection to something big...but I have no clue as to what yet lol. Anyways that my interpretation take it or leave it.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 00:02   Link #10087
Thunder Book
Endless Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
So basically, we look at the fantasy elements as metaphors is what everyone is now saying.

I thought doing this was obvious... ?
Thunder Book is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 00:23   Link #10088
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
I think that's the right appraoch. Even scene should have some kind of meaning or else the author wouldn't have added it right?
Maybe there's only one author or maybe there are multiple authors (Shannon then Hachijou then Ange). We'll have to wait and see.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 02:00   Link #10089
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
"Without love, the truth cannot be seen."
Wait a second. That's not what the original Japanese says:

愛がなければ見えない
愛がなければ視えない

By the way, I think both kanji for miru has been used at this point, I'll go into that later. But ultimate the line doesn't translate to 'the truth,' it just says, 'Without love, it cannot be seen.' But it doesn't say 'what' can be seen. I always assumed it meant 'the truth' as well but suddenly I thought... where did that come from? Without a specific noun, maybe it refers to the 愛 (love) from the first part?

So... maybe it's: "If you have no love, you cannot see the love." This Seagull did kinda touch on, I think. In other words you'd be like Erika, you doubt that people have any good intentions at all, you'd arrive at the simplest and probably wrong answer, etc.


As for the change in kanji, I've been wondering what Ryukishi meant by it. To explain the different uses:

見 - a general 'to see' kanji. Pretty much the same as 'to see' in English.
視 - can be thought of as seeing something but 'discerning' it or 'perceiving it.' to see something and realize that it's important/dangerous/etc.

I'm not sure whether 視 was used in EP1-4, but I thought that it was introduced in EP5. My theory is a hint from Ryukishi that, now, you can begin to perceive 'it', if you have love. Does anyone know if it was used in EP1-4?


EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. If you cannot see the love between the people, you cannot solve the mystery, is what I'm thinking that sentence means. Perhaps it's a clue that says if you can see and believe that the people do love each other, you can wheedle down the entire cast and see which one does NOT have any love and that's the culprit? Do we see anyone like that? (Besides Trollkastel and Hentairika. )
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 02:27   Link #10090
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Just something I thought of. iirc there is a line in episode 4 where Shannon says something about being in the golden land what it was like for her. I think she was talking to Kanon. She said she was sleeping relaxed on a soft bed. I don't remember exactly how she said it, but you think there is any relation to that and putting the witch to sleep line in the epitaph?
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 03:32   Link #10091
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Something that occurred to me as I posted the link to that MAD on nicovideo where Beatrice -> Battler -> Erika -> Beatrice kicks each other in that order into a box.

Remember all that color coding we were looking at?
Erika: Blue hair
Beatrice: Gold hair
Battler: Red hair

Is there a piece on the gameboard that's likely to become nearly as important as these three in the future with black hair? ... George? 8)
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 03:38   Link #10092
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Is there a piece on the gameboard that's likely to become nearly as important as these three in the future with black hair? ... George? 8)

There are also Kanon and Hachijou and possibly this Raito guy that's in the episode 6 code... I'm wondering if we'll get 12 new Van Dine rules in episode 7 since the tips say there are "12 spears" representing Dine or something like that. I doubt they'll go unmentioned.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 03:50   Link #10093
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
There is something that bother me in EP5.
Bern says that "It's impossible for a witch that control a piece to make that piece do something he can't naturally do" or something like that.
It is nonsence.
In EP5, Battler is shown to have jumped from the window of Kinzo's study to the ground.

Before the witch take the game board, in the beginning of EP1. It is obvious that Battler is afraid of falling. But in EP5 he actually jumped from the 3rd story to the ground. And according to Bern, it's was possible for Battler to do it.
Battler is not afraid of fallllll falllling.
Battler beated his deepest fear thanks to the witch controlling him.


Also, what do you think of Battler deep fear of falling is connected with the sin of six year ago. ?
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 03:54   Link #10094
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
I wouldn't call it a fear of falling. He's afraid of boats and planes and stuff that he's unfamiliar with I think. He was afraid that he was going to fall off the boat because it was going so fast not falling in general. It was the same thing with the plane he went on. That was mostly done at his expense I don't think it's connected with his sin or anything.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 03:56   Link #10095
DgBarca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
There are also Kanon and Hachijou and possibly this Raito guy that's in the episode 6 code... I'm wondering if we'll get 12 new Van Dine rules in episode 7 since the tips say there are "12 spears" representing Dine or something like that. I doubt they'll go unmentioned.
Van Dine ? hum...WHAT ?
"There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar. "
"A servant must not be chosen by the author as the culprit. This is begging a noble question. It is a too easy solution. The culprit must be a decidedly worth-while person — one that wouldn't ordinarily come under suspicion. "
"There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature. "

There is 20 Van Dine rules, maybe turn them to 12 make some...vanish, like Knox 5 (or something else)

Quote:
I wouldn't call it a fear of falling. He's afraid of boats and planes and stuff that he's unfamiliar with I think. He was afraid that he was going to fall off the boat because it was going so fast not falling in general. It was the same thing with the plane he went on. That was mostly done at his expense I don't think it's connected with his sin or anything.
Hum yeah I re-read the beginning of EP1 and it says that Battler is afraid of vehicles, not falling.
DgBarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 04:06   Link #10096
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Ryukishi definitely knows that a lot of the Van Dine rules don't work within his story. He's done his research though. I have no doubt that some of them will get an honorable mention at least since they're in the episode 5 tips. And there is a LIG code for a character in episode 6, though he hasn't appeared yet.

Quote:
Eiserne Jungfrau

One of the repentance enforcement agencies supervised by the Great Court of Heaven. Its area of jurisdiction is the 7th District. It is made up of 7 Inquisitors of Heresy, with the first-class Archbishop Dlanor at their head, as well with several Assistant Inquisitors. This body is tasked with performing heresy interrogations, carrying out executions, and sometimes bestowing redemption. However, in almost all cases, the Great Court of Heaven considers sending them only after the completion of a heresy interrogation and a tentative guilty verdict, so they are, practically speaking, no different than an execution squad.

Their spectacular achievements are great in number, and they are extremely well known, even among other agencies. Other famous enforcement agencies include the "SSVD" of the 8th district. It is rumored that this group's leader, 'Wizard-Hunting Wright', also known as the Twelve Wedges, is even more powerful than Dlanor.
EDIT: by the way. SSVD stands for S.S. Van Dine. Which was the psuedonym for the mystery writer Willard Huntington Wright
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 04:36   Link #10097
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
I sent that translation error to the witch hunt and they fixed it in the episode 6 patch. It was supposed to be 20 and not 12. (It's not hard to mistake 二十 with 十二 if you're translating thousands of lines of text)
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 05:46   Link #10098
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
If it was an error, it's an interesting coincidence; S. S. Van Dine wrote 12 novels featuring Philo Vance.
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 07:09   Link #10099
SeagullCrazy
Endless Witch-Doctor
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Wait a second. That's not what the original Japanese says:

愛がなければ見えない
愛がなければ視えない

By the way, I think both kanji for miru has been used at this point, I'll go into that later. But ultimate the line doesn't translate to 'the truth,' it just says, 'Without love, it cannot be seen.' But it doesn't say 'what' can be seen. I always assumed it meant 'the truth' as well but suddenly I thought... where did that come from? Without a specific noun, maybe it refers to the 愛 (love) from the first part?
I don't really remember where I saw it like that, but I do remember it's been worded like that before. I thought it was used like that some point in the game, but there is a very similar phrase at the end of EP1's opening movie.

"Without love, you can't tell the twisted lies from the truth"
SeagullCrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-05-18, 08:03   Link #10100
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
There is something that bother me in EP5.
Bern says that "It's impossible for a witch that control a piece to make that piece do something he can't naturally do" or something like that.
It is nonsence.
In EP5, Battler is shown to have jumped from the window of Kinzo's study to the ground.
Except Battler didn't actually jump out the window, he just climbed/slid down the drain pipe. Everyone knew that as well.

As for his fear of falling being connected with his sin, I think that's just grasping at straws. In EP 4 Rudolf is convinced that Battler got his fear from Asumu, who was also afraid of heights and shakes. Children copy their parent's habits very often, especially when they're young kids.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.