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Old 2010-05-18, 07:28   Link #23441
SonOfHeaven
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Uh... where did I say Kallen was worse than Lelouch?
Quite a few of her actions weren't any better than a lot of Lelouch's actions, as far as I'm concerned. But that's all.
I guess I misinterpreted that. However I'll disagree on some of her actions being on the same level as Lelouch. Lelouch overall actions>whatever Kallen ended up doing the series in my opinion. If this or would have happened not being that important to me.
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Old 2010-05-18, 07:36   Link #23442
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven View Post
I guess I misinterpreted that. However I'll disagree on some of her actions being on the same level as Lelouch. Lelouch overall actions>whatever Kallen ended up doing the series in my opinion.
I don't disagree, which is why I said "a lot of Lelouch's actions" rather than "all of his actions".
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Old 2010-05-18, 08:13   Link #23443
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Suzaku is the enemy both times, and only the first time is an assassination. Shirley and Lelouch are understandable as she can't have her identity revealed.
That's not understandable in the least, killing them would just look more suspicious. Y'know, when they turned up dead and their murders were investigated. It's not like she was being subtle or careful either. Played up for comedy or not, she still did it.


And I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but to me, murder is murder. Following orders, opposite sides of the battlefield or whatever, she still went out and killed people of her own freewill. What she did is understandable, but not really justifiable.

And to be honest, the Black Knights pre-Zero were all in all less moral than Lelouch, I thought. At least when he did something (that probably involved killing people), he actually had a reason for it and accomplished something. All they were going to do at the beginning of the series was kill a lot of people, only to be brushed away by Britannia like pests. They'd have made no difference other than killing a lot of innocent people.
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Old 2010-05-18, 08:22   Link #23444
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
And I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but to me, murder is murder. Following orders, opposite sides of the battlefield or whatever, she still went out and killed people of her own freewill. What she did is understandable, but not really justifiable.

And to be honest, the Black Knights pre-Zero were all in all less moral than Lelouch, I thought. At least when he did something (that probably involved killing people), he actually had a reason for it and accomplished something. All they were going to do at the beginning of the series was kill a lot of people, only to be brushed away by Britannia like pests. They'd have made no difference other than killing a lot of innocent people.
I pretty much agree with this, especially with the Black Knights thing. Kallen didn't want to involve innocents, but that's what happened, and it was to be expected. Lelouch can actually be considered fairly moral in comparison to a lot of characters, as he at least tried to change something. Take Rivalz, who is an awesome friend to have, but would not risk coming late to school for strangers who had a car accident.
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Old 2010-05-18, 10:29   Link #23445
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Came close but still didn't happen though. Kallen didn't end up killing someone face first in the show.
The point is that she was obviously prepared to kill face to face, and while it is no guarantee that she ever killed anyone outside of a knightmare, it allows the possibility that she had.

Suzaku was an enemy, but Shirley and Lelouch were not. She had nothing to gain from being in Ashford and was only there to fulfil Naoto's dream of her being in school. She could have just judo-chopped them and run away, since killing them in either case would make her a suspect, bring up an investigation, and likely reveal her Japanese heritage, thus getting her booted from Ashford anyway.
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Old 2010-05-18, 10:45   Link #23446
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post

And I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but to me, murder is murder. Following orders, opposite sides of the battlefield or whatever, she still went out and killed people of her own freewill. What she did is understandable, but not really justifiable.

And to be honest, the Black Knights pre-Zero were all in all less moral than Lelouch, I thought. At least when he did something (that probably involved killing people), he actually had a reason for it and accomplished something. All they were going to do at the beginning of the series was kill a lot of people, only to be brushed away by Britannia like pests. They'd have made no difference other than killing a lot of innocent people.
Well, I can't really change your opinion, but I just wanna point out that you are actually right, murder is indeed murder, except that in battles and wars, murders are called "decorated kills". Kallen was a damn good soldier, and the best soldiers are proportionally the best killers. Justifiable? Quite, they killed her brother, the one and only figure she truly admired pre-meeting Zero, and oppressing her mother and other people as well. In her POV, Brittania is evil, and can we really blame her for that? Britannia IS evil. This reminds me of a question a friend of mine asked...and has been commonly asked before, would murder still be murder if it had good repercussions? Like if you were in Austria, 1904, and you meet Hitler as a child, knowing that he will cause massive destruction in the future, would you kill him?

Not exactly the same situation as Kallen, but I think she sees it as more of a killing sport, fighting them Britannians, she actually believed that Britannia deserved to be knocked out of Japan for all the shit they did, and in that respect, she is right. Britannia were treating the Elevens like shit, and raping Japan of all her resources.

And umm, just to point out, there were NO Black Knights prior to them meeting Zero. Before they met Zero, they were just a rag-tag group of mercenaries who would kill anybody who get in the way as long as they got a few Britannian heads. Zero, in a perverse way, actually made them more humane. Kallen also wouldn't kill Britannian civilians for fun...she accepts it as collateral damage, which is understandable.
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:16   Link #23447
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Well, I can't really change your opinion, but I just wanna point out that you are actually right, murder is indeed murder, except that in battles and wars, murders are called "decorated kills". Kallen was a damn good soldier, and the best soldiers are proportionally the best killers. Justifiable? Quite, they killed her brother, the one and only figure she truly admired pre-meeting Zero, and oppressing her mother and other people as well. In her POV, Brittania is evil, and can we really blame her for that? Britannia IS evil. This reminds me of a question a friend of mine asked...and has been commonly asked before, would murder still be murder if it had good repercussions? Like if you were in Austria, 1904, and you meet Hitler as a child, knowing that he will cause massive destruction in the future, would you kill him?

Not exactly the same situation as Kallen, but I think she sees it as more of a killing sport, fighting them Britannians, she actually believed that Britannia deserved to be knocked out of Japan for all the shit they did, and in that respect, she is right. Britannia were treating the Elevens like shit, and raping Japan of all her resources.
And here's where the different morality opinions come in. Whether murder or not is ever justifiable is personal, not determined by official laws. And bringing that decorated kills thing up is irrelevent anyway. She was a terrorist, not a soldier.

And yes, murder is still murder if it has good repercussions because it's still taking someone's life. That part's not debatable. What I think you mean is whether or not it's alright if it's 'for the greater good', which is, as usual, subjective, and depends on which morality code you happen to live your life by, if any.

And who says you have to kill Hitler? Just make sure he gets into art college and we're holocaust free~ Not going to get into the changing history and determinism stuff here. I should really stop trying to bring philosophy into an anime forum.

Quote:
And umm, just to point out, there were NO Black Knights prior to them meeting Zero. Before they met Zero, they were just a rag-tag group of mercenaries who would kill anybody who get in the way as long as they got a few Britannian heads. Zero, in a perverse way, actually made them more humane. Kallen also wouldn't kill Britannian civilians for fun...she accepts it as collateral damage, which is understandable.
Nitpicking~ It's obvious what I meant, 'The terrorists that eventually make up the Black Knights' is a bit of a mouthful.

And really, it wasn't 'collateral damage' before Zero, because they never actually accomplished anything. All the people that might have died as a result of their actions died for nothing.
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:53   Link #23448
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Justifiable? Quite, they killed her brother, the one and only figure she truly admired pre-meeting Zero, and oppressing her mother and other people as well. In her POV, Brittania is evil, and can we really blame her for that? Britannia IS evil.
Britannia != Britannian civilians.
Kallen was not achieving anything through the means she used except endangering innocents and helping to cause the Shinjuku massacre. All the characters in Code Geass have their reasons. That does not make them morally correct.

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Not exactly the same situation as Kallen, but I think she sees it as more of a killing sport, fighting them Britannians, she actually believed that Britannia deserved to be knocked out of Japan for all the shit they did, and in that respect, she is right. Britannia were treating the Elevens like shit, and raping Japan of all her resources.
Again, Britannia != Britannian civilians. This is the first thing Lelouch teaches Ougi and the rest.

And no, I don't think you can compare pointless violence and showing your dissatisfaction that way to going back in time and killing Hitler.
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Old 2010-05-18, 12:48   Link #23449
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The gas incident is a huge event. I can't say Kallen's group were only doing pointless missions.
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Old 2010-05-18, 13:08   Link #23450
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Lawl. Same people back to the good old Kallen is a murderer when the girl only killed on battlefield.
She never killed anyone out of it, Suzaku was the only serious possibility, Shirley being a comic relief and Lelouch...she could have only threaten him for all we know.
Really, Kallen as a murderer. What a joke. / Back to studies
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Old 2010-05-18, 13:18   Link #23451
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Lawl. Same people back to the good old Kallen is a murderer when the girl only killed on battlefield.
And before Zero came along, Kallen killing people on the "battlefield" did a lot more harm than good.

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She never killed anyone out of it, Suzaku was the only serious possibility, Shirley being a comic relief and Lelouch...she could have only threaten him for all we know.
Lelouch's pitiful physical abilities are also a comic relief, that doesn't mean they don't exist. And Kallen just threatening Lelouch when he knew about her being a terrorist? I really don't think so. The moment she removed the knife and let him go, he'd have been free to tell on her, and any average Britannian would have done exactly that, especially after being threatened. She seemed even more determined to kill him as it was the case with Shirley, and saying she didn't really plan to dispose of either of them feels like grasping for straws to me. There's absolutely no indication that she wasn't serious.
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Old 2010-05-18, 13:31   Link #23452
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I think Kallen failed in becoming a murderer during the R1. There were some promising situations, but due to this or that she refused. The final scene with Suzaku proves that she simply couldn't do something like that in ANY circumstances. Cute Kallen =)
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Old 2010-05-18, 13:42   Link #23453
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And before Zero came along, Kallen killing people on the "battlefield" did a lot more harm than good.
And of course, the fact that the terrorists created the 'battlefield' in the first place is a factor as well.

Quote:
Lelouch's pitiful physical abilities are also a comic relief, that doesn't mean they don't exist. And Kallen just threatening Lelouch when he knew about her being a terrorist? I really don't think so. The moment she removed the knife and let him go, he'd have been free to tell on her, and any average Britannian would have done exactly that, especially after being threatened. She seemed even more determined to kill him as it was the case with Shirley, and saying she didn't really plan to dispose of either of them feels like grasping for straws to me. There's absolutely no indication that she wasn't serious.
Exactly. It was a really stupd thing to do, end of. Kallen's intelligence seemed to really yo-yo throughout the series. She had her smart moments, sure, but then she'd go and do something like that.


I don't understand why people are getting so defensive. She was a murderer. So what? Just about everyone in whole damn show was. No one's saying it makes her a less worthy character or whatever. Don't cover up a characters flaws, their flaws are what make them more interesting and human.
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:08   Link #23454
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Hehe...this image seems a appendix of my story:

Spoiler for nudities:

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Old 2010-05-18, 14:14   Link #23455
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Jeez bonzo, you wanna put that in NSFW spoiler tags?
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:27   Link #23456
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I'm sorry, but after reading most of the comments here I just have to ask, what do you guys really think kallen and her group should have done before Lelouch came along? Sit on their thumbs and pray to Kami-sama for help? Or hope the Britannians were just going to be nice and at the very least leave them alone? Very doubtful, considering how precious land is and there is a profit to be made off of the expendable lower class. Maybe they could hope someone else would do the dirty work, which in my view is much worse and cowardly than what they really did. I think we keep forgetting that if no one resisted against Britannia, nothing was going to change. As a matter of fact, things would get worse. Hell without the "terrorists" how the hell was Lelouch ever going to start his rebellion in the first place?

As far as civilians are concerned, it sucks that they keep getting mixed up in the war and end up killed, but it can't be avoided. The battles are taking place in Japan. Not some secluded area or mountain top, Japan. It's not like anyone can resist against the controlling power and kindly ask people to leave or ask the Britanian military to fight them in the woods or something. That's just stupid and suicidal. Since we like to mention how much more humane Lelouch is compared to the likes of Kallen and her group where he was trying to tell them they shouldn't harm civilians, like that is even possible in their situation, guess what happens in the Black Knight's first military operation under his guidance. Civilians got hurt in Narita. Remember, the first few missions Zero had the Black Knights do were small, rescues and taking down drug dealers, vigilantism in other words. That's why he is so shook up about the event because he realizes that sometimes innocents will get hurt and there is nothing you can do about it except move on. Hell, when he is in the shower beating himself up about it, he remembers Kallen's rebuttle, about how it's easier said than done to prevent casulties, to his demand for her group to not harm civilians . That's the sad truth about war. You can do everything humanly possible and innocents will still get caught up and die. You should also consider that even though Kallen and her group knows that defeating Britannia is out of the question, because you know, they aren't retarded, they are fighting to contribute to the larger resistance movement and giving the opportunity for the Lelouches of the world to actually make a difference. Hell you need to consider that if Kallen was not fighting, Lelouch would have been captured by the Lancelot in Shinjuku or any other battle. No Lelouch of the Rebellion... All hail Britannia, intrumentality, and blaw blaw blaw. I think the saying goes, "If good men do nothing, that is evil enough."

As for the "murder is murder" crowd, yeah true, but remember just because we aren't doing the killing ourselves doesn't mean that someone else isn't doing it on our behalf so we can be safe. Ignorance about that truth doesn't make us any better than the people that kill. Nor should we condemn those that do and take the high ground just because we don't. Unless we actively try to stop our military and police from doing what is needed, which then kudos to you. Personally I can't even begin to ever claim to be more moral than the "terrorists". I've never had my home taken away from me and had my people subjected to being expendable slaves while people who could care less about what I've been through will go shopping or sweet school trips while the ghetto and the proof of my suffering is right in front of their faces. I feel bad enough when I'm with some native americans that agonize over their homeland and people while all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say, "Sorry, but better you than me I guess..." What I'm trying to say is we should get off of our pedastals and realize that even though the Japanese are causing harm and fighting a futile battle, they have no other choice unless they want to suffer and vanish.

As for murderer=killer, I find that really debateable, but that's more in line with a philosophy class. I would consider Kallen and any other soldier as a killer. Hell I'm a killer because I have squished my fair share of bugs, eaten meat, and plucked a flower. Being a killer is a vague and broad term. As long as you end life in any way, you are a killer. Murderer, that's where it gets tricky. What may count as a murderer to you is a killer to someone else. I don't think Kallen is a murderer because she is in a situation that requires to kill. She has no choice. Hell if should doesn't kill the enemy she allows her allies to be killed which is an indirect kill. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. A murderer to me is someone that goes out of his way to end a life with no reasons but their own such as rage, contracts, desire, and fun.
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:44   Link #23457
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Originally Posted by Bigpoppasmurf1105 View Post
I'm sorry, but after reading most of the comments here I just have to ask, what do you guys really think kallen and her group should have done before Lelouch came along? Sit on their thumbs and pray to Kami-sama for help? Or hope the Britannians were just going to be nice and at the very least leave them alone? Very doubtful, considering how precious land is and there is a profit to be made off of the expendable lower class. Maybe they could hope someone else would do the dirty work, which in my view is much worse and cowardly than what they really did. I think we keep forgetting that if no one resisted against Britannia, nothing was going to change. As a matter of fact, things would get worse. Hell without the "terrorists" how the hell was Lelouch ever going to start his rebellion in the first place?
Without a way to actually make a significant difference, yes, backing down would have probably been a better option. They wouldn't be killing innocent civilians (and as Nogistune said a page ago, what were they doing targeting civilians in the first place? Get to the heart of the problem), and Britannia would - probably - be less hostile towards them. The only real reason they kept on fighting was pride, unless they were retarded and didn't realise how much of a superpower Britannia really was. They were literally insects as far as Britannia was concerned, and didn't get anywhere till someone with an ounce of talent and magic mind control powers took over.



Hey, this is the first time I've been able to really understand Suzaku's PoV on this issue. Still don't completely agree with him, but hey it's nice to understand. /random
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:48   Link #23458
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Lelouch's pitiful physical abilities are also a comic relief, that doesn't mean they don't exist. And Kallen just threatening Lelouch when he knew about her being a terrorist? I really don't think so. The moment she removed the knife and let him go, he'd have been free to tell on her, and any average Britannian would have done exactly that, especially after being threatened. She seemed even more determined to kill him as it was the case with Shirley, and saying she didn't really plan to dispose of either of them feels like grasping for straws to me. There's absolutely no indication that she wasn't serious.
Lelouch couldn't see the knife, so she was covered in that respect. So was Shirley, and if Kallen had decided to kill her she'd probably have been quick about it. She's presumably smart enough to hide her involvement in a murder if necessary. Suzaku's the only one she'd have been caught on.

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Without a way to actually make a significant difference, yes, backing down would have probably been a better option. They wouldn't be killing innocent civilians (and as Nogistune said a page ago, what were they doing targeting civilians in the first place? Get to the heart of the problem), and Britannia would - probably - be less hostile towards them. The only real reason they kept on fighting was pride, unless they were retarded and didn't realise how much of a superpower Britannia really was. They were literally insects as far as Britannia was concerned, and didn't get anywhere till someone with an ounce of talent and magic mind control powers took over.
Do nothing and nothing changes. Do something and you have a chance. People will more often than not take the risk, especially in cases of occupation. Doing nothing is surrender, it's endorsing the behavior of your conquerors.
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:53   Link #23459
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The point is they might as well have been doing nothing~
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Old 2010-05-18, 15:00   Link #23460
morbosfist
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The point is they might as well have been doing nothing~
With that attitude what's the point of even trying? If you try and fail, at least you tried. Never try and you fail by default. That's Suzaku's problem. He's too scared to make the hard choices and takes the easy way out.
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