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Old 2010-05-18, 17:13   Link #10141
Judoh
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Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post
Yeah, that's possible. But why doesn't Jessica reappear in 1998? Thinking about it like that, it might be different depending on whether or not EP4-1998 is the same as EP6-1998.
Amakusa needs the money to help the blind Jessica. The shot actually handicapped her for life.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:22   Link #10142
Laserworm
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Where do anybody get the stakes?
Don't know, maybe Rudolf or Kyrie since it was mentioned that are having some settlement with USA and that was where Kinzo bought them, or something can't full remember.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:25   Link #10143
SeagullCrazy
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Amakusa needs the money to help the blind Jessica. The shot actually handicapped her for life.
Well, I guess I can't deny the possibility... but Occam's Razor would keep it simple with the bomb explosion.

Ah, wait a minute. In EP4, when Ange visited Rokkenjima, the land was destroyed. It was even said by Ryukishi that this hinted at the existence of a bomb. Basically, Ange confirms in the future that the explosion actually happened.

Even if the heart metaphor is true, the heart wasn't killed, was it?
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:27   Link #10144
Midnight Bliss
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I'm rereading episode 1, and i'm sorry if i'm so late, but I like how Battler just points out numerous times about how good George is with children, his envy of how he can comfort them, etc. So, excluding Shannon, who he could easily manipulate, couldn't he also be very well capable of manipulating Maria?
And as stated before, he knows more than he should have about magic. So with her relationship with Rosa, I think George would be a person Maria would turn to for comforting, since he always is understanding of her and her interest in magic.

I probably am late on this one, though if anything, i'm curious about what George=Mastermind theorists would have to say with rereading the episodes and refreshing up their minds a bit.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:34   Link #10145
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Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss View Post
I'm rereading episode 1, and i'm sorry if i'm so late, but I like how Battler just points out numerous times about how good George is with children, his envy of how he can comfort them, etc. So, excluding Shannon, who he could easily manipulate, couldn't he also be very well capable of manipulating Maria?
And as stated before, he knows more than he should have about magic. So with her relationship with Rosa, I think George would be a person Maria would turn to for comforting, since he always is understanding of her and her interest in magic.

I probably am late on this one, though if anything, i'm curious about what George=Mastermind would have to say with rereading the episodes and refreshing up their minds a bit.
There is one more thing about that. Maria believes whatever George tells him. All the cousins say "George would never lie" and Maria says "George never lie" or something like that.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:39   Link #10146
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
In Umineko, as soon people heard the name Lambdadelta, they guessed she had some connection with Takano from Higurashi based on the Greek way of counting using their alphabet. Lambda is the 3rd letter, Delta is the 4th letter. And then when she appeared did we get the un-subtle hints at her giving her power of certainty to someone in the 'last game,' etc.
This is a remarkable degree of misinformation which appears to have perpetuated somehow and I only just realized people think it applies to Lambdadelta. Whether it applies to Takano, Shannon, or whoever, I can't say, but...

Delta is the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet. Gamma is the third. Lambda is the 11th. However, numerically Lambda has a value of 30, and Delta has a value of 4. So it's not 3 + 4, but 30 + 4.

Also, Delta in legal shorthand indicates a defendant. I think this is probably a coincidence, as Lambda has no particular legal significance, and the symbol for plaintiff is Pi, which to my knowledge isn't related to any character in Umineko.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:59   Link #10147
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
This is a remarkable degree of misinformation which appears to have perpetuated somehow and I only just realized people think it applies to Lambdadelta. Whether it applies to Takano, Shannon, or whoever, I can't say, but...

Delta is the fourth letter in the Greek alphabet. Gamma is the third. Lambda is the 11th. However, numerically Lambda has a value of 30, and Delta has a value of 4. So it's not 3 + 4, but 30 + 4.
Oh yah. I wonder where I got it from. Actually, that particular misinterpretation may have been my fault alone. I remember now someone saying lambda was '30.'

By the way, I seriously doubt that this Ryukishi-style numerology will lead us to any real clues. I have a feeling it's a red herring that he put in to 'occupy' us, knowing how obsessive some of his fans are. 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserworm View Post
There is one more thing about that. Maria believes whatever George tells him. All the cousins say "George would never lie" and Maria says "George never lie" or something like that.
It's from this that I've put forward the theory that everything Maria sees as 'magic' is caused by someone around her. She does not think she is lying at all. In this way she is the anti-Battler. Battler is one who sees the 'truth' from the detective point of view, 100% and Maria is the one who sees 'magic' or what someone wants her to see, 100%. With this theory, it should be possible to go back through EP1-4 and pinpoint anyone who is around Maria when she sees magic. For example... Rosa.
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:59   Link #10148
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Gee my theories are coming in handy today.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=9808

Here is my list of reasons for why I think George is suspicious

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I like George as a mastermind the best for the following reasons.
  • He's the only family member besides Krauss and Natsuhi specifically shown to order the servants.
  • He suggests he has his own source on occult knowledge and knows things about the scorpion charm and resurrection ceremonies he shouldn't know.
  • 07151129 is in his tips and it's possible he could of written the number before he died if he had a key to the parlor. Furthermore anyone in the business world could have put the illegal money in the safety deposit boxes, and George is said to be well on his way in the business world. He also says himself that he's always prepared.
  • Is always the first person to point out Beatrice's letters at dinner when Maria takes them out of her bag. And was also the first person to notice Beatrice's letter in the chapel in episode 2.
  • He's good with kids and he seems to like to protect Maria from the adults.


A working theory I have is that the mastermind/handler (whoever it is) Choses Sub-culprits to lead certain groups, which the leaders of which are different in each game.

There are many factions people on here have suggested. i.e team beatrice, team fake deaths, team epitaph, team closed room and stakes, team justice, team bomb, team rescue, etc

The leaders of whatever group chose accomplices like you would chose the players on your team in a basketball game. Since the leaders are chosen at random the accomplices are always different.

For first twilight fakery though it's a lot easier if you suspect Jessica is the person in charge of that group. Since she has make up and stuff and she's involved in at least two of the more obvious fake death plots. And even if the leaders aren't different every time I suppose accomplices could still be chosen at random if you believe in the author theory.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:01   Link #10149
Raiza Sunozaki
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Can't say I like your Episode 3 theory all that much, Seagull. Too much random chaotic murder and not enough devious scheming.

I always thought the servants would be the most likely to carry the stakes, followed by Natsuhi, Krauss and Nanjo. Though that's just because it's the order of people with the easiest access to the study, where I'd presume Kinzo would've stuffed them.

Unrelated, but I decided to re-read Episode 1's Tea Party, because I thought I remembered something.
First of all, massive breaking of the fourth wall some? I'm pretty sure they make reference to "us" one or two times, and the whole first third of it feels like actors relaxing after a day of shooting than people recovering after death in Purgatorio.
Second, when everyone is pitying Shannon for dying so painfully, she tells them it didn't hurt all that much. Last time I checked, you don't die immediately from having half your face being torn up. Between the time that you're still alive and the time that you die, you're hurting like fucking hell. So either the mutilation happened after she died, or she never died in the first place. I'm placing my money on the latter.
Third, I found what I remembered. When Beato appears and re-enacts the deaths of everyone besides Battler, both Kanon and Shannon die how we remember them appearing to have died. Jessica, George and Maria all die by having their bodies reddened and in agonizing pain. In the end, they end up looking like a pile of ugly meat. If you threw in that they looked like blackened, ugly piles of meat, wouldn't it sound like the were in the middle of an explosion/fire?
Fourth, though Maria tells Battler tells believe in Beato as she's dying, Jessica tells Battler to not give in and solve their deaths. Now, there's another line before hand which is similar, but I'm not sure if it belongs to her or George. Since it fits with what I'm getting at, I'm assuming they were both from her. So, with her hopes of finally confessing to Battler how she feels now impossible, she does the only thing she can do, cheer him on and convince him to not give up.
Yeah, I guess I support Battler/Jessitrice now.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:03   Link #10150
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One of the out-of-game Chiru TIPs also portrays George rather unsympathetically as emotionally manipulative in his relationship with Shannon. At the very least, he seems to like messing with her, and it comes across as more creepy and controlling than romantic. At least that's the way I see it.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:06   Link #10151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Can't say I like your Episode 3 theory all that much, Seagull. Too much random chaotic murder and not enough devious scheming.

I always thought the servants would be the most likely to carry the stakes, followed by Natsuhi, Krauss and Nanjo. Though that's just because it's the order of people with the easiest access to the study, where I'd presume Kinzo would've stuffed them.

Unrelated, but I decided to re-read Episode 1's Tea Party, because I thought I remembered something.
First of all, massive breaking of the fourth wall some? I'm pretty sure they make reference to "us" one or two times, and the whole first third of it feels like actors relaxing after a day of shooting than people recovering after death in Purgatorio.
Second, when everyone is pitying Shannon for dying so painfully, she tells them it didn't hurt all that much. Last time I checked, you don't die immediately from having half your face being torn up. Between the time that you're still alive and the time that you die, you're hurting like fucking hell. So either the mutilation happened after she died, or she never died in the first place. I'm placing my money on the latter.
Third, I found what I remembered. When Beato appears and re-enacts the deaths of everyone besides Battler, both Kanon and Shannon die how we remember them appearing to have died. Jessica, George and Maria all die by having their bodies reddened and in agonizing pain. In the end, they end up looking like a pile of ugly meat. If you threw in that they looked like blackened, ugly piles of meat, wouldn't it sound like the were in the middle of an explosion/fire?
Fourth, though Maria tells Battler tells believe in Beato as she's dying, Jessica tells Battler to not give in and solve their deaths. Now, there's another line before hand which is similar, but I'm not sure if it belongs to her or George. Since it fits with what I'm getting at, I'm assuming they were both from her. So, with her hopes of finally confessing to Battler how she feels now impossible, she does the only thing she can do, cheer him on and convince him to not give up.
Yeah, I guess I support Battler/Jessitrice now.
Ep 1's tea party reminds me a lot of the extra scenes in Higurashi. Where all the characters are talking about what happened in the game and suggest theories.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:07   Link #10152
Judoh
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Episode 3 closed room reconstruction

Since we're also on episode 3 here I thought I'd post this. It's probably more relevant here than it is in the episode 5 thread.



The parlor in particular is a special room at this point. Shannon was the first person they discovered and she was discovered by breaking a window. The strange thing is that the keys that the red said were found ( in episode 4) were the servants keys (there might have been master keys in envelopes too, but Virgilia never said there were in here analysis in episode 3). They took Shannon's key and went to the next room and found Kumasawa, then Gohda, then Genji, and so on. Once you get to Kanon's closed room though the key in his envelope opens the parlor. So if George had the key from the chapel (wow what a coincidence he has to go the chapel to unlock a room again...) He could unlock the door to the parlor without going through the broken window, but that's assuming the parents left the parlor locked, and that they didn't take Kanon's key. And the only reason I would want to theorize George did that is to make it possible for him to write 07151129 on the wall.
  • The relatives broke the window to the parlor. Shannon's corpse was found in the parlor. She had a master key in her pocket that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the second floor guestroom.
  • The relatives moved to the second floor. in the Guestroom Kumusawa's corpse was discovered. She had a master key that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the third floor waiting room.
  • The relatives moved to the third floor. In the waiting room Gohda's corpse was discovered. He had a master key that the relatives collected. In the envelope was the key to the second floor honored guestroom.
  • The relatives moved to the second floor. In the honored guestroom Genji's corpse was discovered. He had a master key that the relatives collected. in the envelope was the key to the underground boiler room.
  • The relatives moved to underground boiler room. In the underground boiler room Kinzo's corpse was discovered. In an envelope the key to the chapel was found.
  • The relatives moved to the chapel. Kanon's corpse was found in the chapel. He had a master key in his pocket that the relatives collected. In the envelope the key to the first floor parlor was found. With this the reconstruction of all six closed rooms is complete.

So the way it works

Shannon > Kumasawa > Gohda > Genji > Kinzo > Kanon > Shannon

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention. In the envelope found next to Kinzo was the letter that challenged them to solve the epitaph.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-18 at 18:34.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:10   Link #10153
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
One of the out-of-game Chiru TIPs also portrays George rather unsympathetically as emotionally manipulative in his relationship with Shannon. At the very least, he seems to like messing with her, and it comes across as more creepy and controlling than romantic. At least that's the way I see it.
But without love, the truth cannot be seen, eh? Maybe he just wants to keep her innocence and happiness.
Then again, I haven't read it, so I can't really judge.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:12   Link #10154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagullCrazy View Post


First Twilight:

Kanon, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa, and Genji planned on faking their deaths at the first twilight. They set up the magic circles and letters, and burnt Kinzo's body. Meanwhile, the adults were in the dining room the whole night. They realized that the servants were conspiring against them, and decided to get guns from Kinzo's study for protection. Then some of them went into rooms to lie down and rest. But they noticed the servants hiding, and shot them out of fear and self-defense. They opened the letters and went to each room, killing the servants out of self-defense.

Second Twilight:

Rosa, knowing that there was no killer to be afraid of, went outside with Maria to see the rose. Later, Rudolf went to check on Rosa, and found her. She told him about Eva and her finding the gold. Rudolf wanted the money and killed her in a fit of anger. Since Maria was a witness, he had to kill her too.
Rosa left and went to check on the cousins before they found Shannon. Rosa only hears about there corpses, this is probably why she thinks it is fake.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:14   Link #10155
Judoh
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Ep 1's tea party reminds me a lot of the extra scenes in Higurashi. Where all the characters are talking about what happened in the game and suggest theories.
Ha ha. It's way different from Higurashi! In Higurashi they had people who believed in a curse and people who didn't. It was an after game session where people said their opinions. in Umineko the tea party is a complete troll to the Higurashi fans. Because everyone except Battler believes in the witch and Battler ends up ruining the tea party for refusing to beleive in the witch.

Oh and btw Shannon was in that tea party too I think.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:18   Link #10156
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Ha ha. It's way different from Higurashi! In Higurashi they had people who believed in a curse and people who didn't. It was an after game session where people said their opinions. in Umineko the tea party is a complete troll to the Higurashi fans. Because everyone except Battler believes in the witch and Battler ends up ruining the tea party for refusing to beleive in the witch.

Oh and btw Shannon was in that tea party too I think.
I know it is way different than in Higurashi. But they kind of refrence the reader is what kind of reminds me of it.
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Time ran out for the people on the island. All of them are dead. When the seagulls cry none shall be left alive. Sleep forever in a rest you will never be awakened from my beloved Beatrice. Persona: Project Mirror. http://persona-project-mirror.webs.com/ Check it out if you like the Persona series.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:21   Link #10157
Shiro Kaisen
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This discussion of Episode 3 just gave me a somewhat plausible idea.

The "key" Ryuukishi mentioned is "The basic assumption that makes Room X a closed room is false." I thought of this after I realized that Ep. 3's first twilight isn't a closed room either, since the chapel was never locked to begin with, which allows Kanon's master key to be used to commit each and every other murder and then return it to his body.

We've basically established that the lock on the chapel does not serve the purpose of actually locking it, but rather has to do with the epitaph. At the very least, the chapel was not locked for the first Twilight of Episode 2. The assumption is that it was, but this isn't true. Every closed room is based on Assumption X that something is true.

Battler's closed room is only created because we assume Kanon left the closed room. That's why we have these elaborate DID theories that take Kanon out of the room. But if he died, this assumption isn't true. This key can be used to solve every closed room I've thought of so far....except maybe the Gohda and Kumasawa one, because I haven't thought about it yet and I have to go do stuff, so I'm posting this before I forget.

Just a random musing.
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:24   Link #10158
Judoh
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Any chance this thing from Dante's purgatory could be related to the "without love X" line?

http://www.wolfram.demon.co.uk/rp_dante_purgatory.html
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:47   Link #10159
Kylon99
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By the way Judoh, I'm with you on the George as the culprit theory. I think I may have an idea of the why he would be the culprit too, based on some of the theories people have put forth here. Namely that Kinzo is a magician in the stage-magic sense.

We've all noticed that George has a source of magic information. What if he IS the successor to Kinzo in terms of stage-magic? What if he is one of the few people on the island capable of the slight-of-hand tricks that Kinzo may have drilled into some of them? (i.e. Shannon and Rosa.) Being named successor in this sense may have created this idea in his mind that he is the real successor to the family wealth and power as well. We've seen in some fantasy scenes that he has no problem accepting this.

And so the why is that he's already named successor and acts as one, in respect to 'magic.' And that extends to his idea that he should be the family's successor as well.

I could go on more about how he and Hideyoshi have a deal although he has his own designs with a live with Shannon, but... I believe there isn't anything new as to 'why.'

Also, this theory isn't complete because it still fails to explain the deal with Kanon and the 'closed' rooms... 8)
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Old 2010-05-18, 18:57   Link #10160
Judoh
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Also, this theory isn't complete because it still fails to explain the deal with Kanon and the 'closed' rooms... 8)
It works fine if we trust Erika and assume Kanon and George are the same person

Kanon is a representation of George's past! George once said that when he was young he was weak and bullied a lot. Hideyoshi has also put in lots of of effort to get George experienced with work. It's possible that at one point in time George worked for 3 years on Rokkenjima as the servant Kanon to gain experience in the value of money. How about that Shkanon theory!!
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